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Swansea District Line for faster Cardiff-West Wales (and How) service

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me123

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Much of the remaining rail network in much of rural Wales is heavily loss-making. The following lines should probably be closed:

The Wrexham-Bidston line

I actually use this train from time to time to get me to Wrecsam. It often works out as the best way for me on the outward journey, although never on the return. It's not as quiet as you'd think - quite a lot of pax make the connection at Shotton. For me, it has the benefit of taking me to Wrecsam Canolog (Costa Coffee adjacent, with a shorter walk to my ultimate destination).

The service could be much better if there were better interchange possibilities at Shotton, higher frequencies into the evening and better links (we've already discussed direct trains) to Liverpool.
 
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MarkyT

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No town would lose a rail connection if the Swansea District Line closed, but Carmarthen (pop. 14,185) and all points west would forever be stuck with extended journey times to reach Cardiff and most other places east of Swansea.

The SDL route is only one kilometer shorter than via Neath and Landore (avoiding Swansea), and slower than the main line, particularly at it's circuitous western end. It also misses out the well established centrally located station of Neath with it's good road access and potential for connecting bus service improvements.
 
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Gareth Marston

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The SDL route is only one kilometer shorter than via Neath and Landore (avoiding Swansea), and slower than the main line, particularly at it's circuitous western end. It also misses out the well established centrally located station of Neath with it's good road access and potential for connecting bus service improvements.

Swansea county has a large population with poor access to rail services. The SDL and a parkway station on it would vastly improve this. I take a guess but Sawnsea prolly has the greatest number of closed stations in a 20 mile radius of its centre of anywhere it's size.
 

Rhydgaled

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The SDL route is only one kilometer shorter than via Neath and Landore (avoiding Swansea), and slower than the main line, particularly at it's circuitous western end. It also misses out the well established centrally located station of Neath with it's good road access and potential for connecting bus service improvements.
Slower linespeeds yes, but only the bit that's also part of the HOWL looks particularly twisty. The rest of the SDL looks straight enough for the current 50mph limit to be raised considerably, provided the viaducts can take it (the one that currently has a 20mph limit is a possible concern). The 70 minute journey time I would like to see between Carmarthen and Cardiff is perhaps improbable, but the chances look slightly better to me if you use the SDL.

As for wanting to avoid missing out Neath, if you apply the same logic then all services should go into Swansea High Street station. In order to keep journey times down, you may have noticed that the express Carmarthen-Cardiff service I would like to see also misses out Bridgend (passing through without stopping). There's another reason for missing out Neath and Bridgend, the population of Carmarthen and Pembrokeshire is unlikely to justify long trains, whereas the main line between Swansea and Cardiff absolutely needs more than 2 or 3 coaches. Taking out the Bridgend, Neath and Swansea stops I hope will allow long-distance passengers boarding at Cardiff for Fishguard/Milford to get a seat, despite the train only being 2 or 3 coaches to reflect the demand further west. I only kept the Port Talbot stop in to allow S.W. Wales passengers to change there to reach Bridgend (and possibly Neath, though that might be just as fast changing at Swansea).

Swansea county has a large population with poor access to rail services. The SDL and a parkway station on it would vastly improve this. I take a guess but Sawnsea prolly has the greatest number of closed stations in a 20 mile radius of its centre of anywhere it's size.
Compared to Cardiff, Swansea does look like it is crying out for a suburban rail network like the ValleyLines. That is a reason for me bringing up the Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen line, it's part of a vision for a 'ValleyLines' network for Swansea. Such a shame passengers from Glyn-Neath would have to change onto a tram at Swansea Docks to get into the city centre though.
 

Gareth Marston

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Much of the remaining rail network in much of rural Wales is heavily loss-making. The following lines should probably be closed:
The Blaenau Ffestiniog branch
The Wrexham-Bidston line
The Fishguard and Pembroke branches
The Heart of Wales line
The Swansea District line

No Welsh town with a population >10,000 would lose its rail connection if these closures went ahead.

Retaining the line from Milford Haven to Swansea would provide suitable railheads in South-West Wales, ditto the line from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury for Mid Wales. Lack of suitable estuarial road bridges, particularly across the Mawddach, could justify retaining the Cambrian coast line to Pwllheli.

Do you have figures to justify "heavy loss making"?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Much of the SDL was relaid a few years back in order to trial out the High Output equipment in a controlled environment. I am sure some increases could be done therefore.

Re GCG - someone needs therefore to protect the line for strategic purposes. The catchment of the line is / could be around 20,000 - talking today to some local residents of the area (at a function in Greenwich !) , they confirmed the economic pull of Cafriff in the labour market even that far west - one drives daily from Llanedi (near Pontardulais) to Bridgend .....
 

Doctor Fegg

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Much of the remaining rail network in much of rural Wales is heavily loss-making. The following lines should probably be closed:

Much of the road network in rural Wales is loss-making. The economic gain from maintaining the tarmac on a bunch of country lanes used principally by farmers is pretty minimal. I'm not sure why you should single out the rail network for rationalisation.
 

Gareth Marston

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Much of the SDL was relaid a few years back in order to trial out the High Output equipment in a controlled environment. I am sure some increases could be done therefore.

Re GCG - someone needs therefore to protect the line for strategic purposes. The catchment of the line is / could be around 20,000 - talking today to some local residents of the area (at a function in Greenwich !) , they confirmed the economic pull of Cafriff in the labour market even that far west - one drives daily from Llanedi (near Pontardulais) to Bridgend .....

Bridgend is a good 12 miles west of Cardiff.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Bridgend is a good 12 miles west of Cardiff.

I know that - but is indicative on a micro level of a commuting journey. I have the son of a good friend who drives daily , Llandybie to Central Cardiff ...pretty gruesome , but he does it each day.

A certain view from today , from someone who is well attuned to economic trend in SW Wales (and is an MD of a commercial business) , is that there is very little economic / industrial activity west of Port Talbot industry wise , but there is a pool of labour in "affordable" housing who might be tempted to retain local "domus" to work on / in the M4 corridor if decent public transport was available.

How many new homes are planned in Greater Cardiff ...? - loads I gather. Anyway , just a comment..
 

Greenback

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A certain view from today , from someone who is well attuned to economic trend in SW Wales (and is an MD of a commercial business) , is that there is very little economic / industrial activity west of Port Talbot industry wise , but there is a pool of labour in "affordable" housing who might be tempted to retain local "domus" to work on / in the M4 corridor if decent public transport was available.

I can't argue too much with that view. There ar epockets of industry remaining around Llanelli, but the town has become moribund because so many jobs have gone, and no a lot of residents are forced into commuting to Swansea and beyond.

I suspect that the same is true of places like Clydach, Pontardawe and Ystradgynlais. The latter was pretty desperate back in 1996, when my girlfriend at the time could only find work in Cardioff or Newport. I can't imagine that thing shave improved in the last 20 years.

I think we have to face up to the fact once and for all that the reason for many of the South Wales towns existing is base don geographical accidents. The mineral deposits, the proximity of the sea for onward transport, and the plethora of rivers led to the creation of industry and the settlements aroudn those industries.

Without those industries, the future of places like Llanelli seems to be as feeder towns and dormitories for the cities and regions such as Cardiff/Newport and Swansea Bay. That requires better and faster transport links. It's happened in the Cardiff Valleys to some extent. Now it needs to spread.

Having said that, the HoW line towns are a rather different kettle of fish, havign a different history, different raisons d'etre, and a different future. That's why I can see the sense in a fast SDL service, but I can't see much sense in sending trains from Llandovery directly to Cardiff.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I can't argue too much with that view. There ar epockets of industry remaining around Llanelli, but the town has become moribund because so many jobs have gone, and no a lot of residents are forced into commuting to Swansea and beyond.

I suspect that the same is true of places like Clydach, Pontardawe and Ystradgynlais. The latter was pretty desperate back in 1996, when my girlfriend at the time could only find work in Cardioff or Newport. I can't imagine that thing shave improved in the last 20 years.

I think we have to face up to the fact once and for all that the reason for many of the South Wales towns existing is base don geographical accidents. The mineral deposits, the proximity of the sea for onward transport, and the plethora of rivers led to the creation of industry and the settlements aroudn those industries.

Without those industries, the future of places like Llanelli seems to be as feeder towns and dormitories for the cities and regions such as Cardiff/Newport and Swansea Bay. That requires better and faster transport links. It's happened in the Cardiff Valleys to some extent. Now it needs to spread.

Having said that, the HoW line towns are a rather different kettle of fish, havign a different history, different raisons d'etre, and a different future. That's why I can see the sense in a fast SDL service, but I can't see much sense in sending trains from Llandovery directly to Cardiff.

Agree , his view was that the job flow from the Cardiff area would wash back down the M4 corridor towards Swansea etc (as Cdf gets "overheated" in terms of work and property) , but this will inevitably take time , perhaps several decades. We had a magnificent discussion on this yesterday.

The HoW corridor is basically a string of smallish market and rural economy based settlements , which I guess still serve very local economies and are materially different to the Llanelli- Port Talbot agglomertion - even back in the 1960's geographers referred to the Swansea Bay City region. Some welcome regeneration taking place , but basically we ought to be looking at the best use of the infrastructure , not just rail , but social and housing.

Proritising east west links to / from the big job markets and linking the HoW corridor into Swansea would make sense - the Llanelli - Swansea corridor could perhaps do with re-opening Cockett station.

Any ideas on the Vale of Neath - or what is left of it) ?
 

Envoy

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I would certainly like to see a fast service leaving Cardiff at about 9am heading for the HoW via the SDL. This would induce tourists to take the entire HoW line for the circuit of southern Wales. As things stand, the lengthy journey via Llanelli does not exactly entice such leisure traffic.

Most people in Cardiff do not want to see the city expand into the surrounding countryside. This is particularly so as the distance between the capital & Newport is relatively short. Much opposition has been against the Local Development Plan for development going NW from Cardiff towards Llantrisant. It looks like the Welsh Government wish to expand the size of Cardiff to make it a more important place. The way that development is now taking place along the A4050 from Culverhouse Cross to Barry, they might just as well call Barry a suburb of Cardiff. (they don’t do this because Barry - as well as Penarth - are in the Vale of Glamorgan county). Presumably, had they all been in one county - as we had with South Glamorgan - then one LDP for the wider region would have been preferable to the situation we have today

So, what has all this got to do with the SDL? As I see it, the lack of employment further west from Cardiff is inducing longer distance commuting. Being as no station in the West Glamorgan area - apart form Port Talbot, has free Park & Ride, those people who travel to work in Cardiff are inclined to use the car. Then the planners cite the employment opportunities in Cardiff attracting people from a wide area due to a lack of housing in Cardiff - hence the justification in digging up the limited amount of open countryside in the area. One thing leads to another!

Swansea should be a wonderful city but unfortunate rebuilding after the war means it is not attractive. The plans for the rebuilding of central Swansea and the demolition of that hideous bunker (1980’s) of a council HQ, will certainly make it more attractive. With a more attractive city centre, it might attract more employment opportunities and take some of the pressure off Cardiff and reduce the need to commute to the capital from the west.

So, we are really discussing several issues: > best way to link HoW with SW Wales and perhaps SE Wales; how to get faster links to Carmarthen & beyond as the road is currently much quicker than the railway; how to provide local links in the Swansea area; the placing of a Park & Ride near the M4 on the SDL north of Swansea in order to reduce commuting traffic along the M4 corridor. Allied to all these aspirations is the problem of the main line between Port Talbot and Cardiff being mainly only 1 track each way with limited paths.
 
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70014IronDuke

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....

So, we are really discussing several issues: > best way to link HoW with SW Wales and perhaps SE Wales; how to get faster links to Carmarthen & beyond as the road is currently much quicker than the railway; how to provide local links in the Swansea area; the placing of a Park & Ride near the M4 on the SDL north of Swansea in order to reduce commuting traffic along the M4 corridor. Allied to all these aspirations is the problem of the main line between Port Talbot and Cardiff being mainly only 1 track each way with limited paths.

Most of these developments could be mutually exclusive (except a station at Nth Morriston, of course - rather dependent on the SDL service). However, it would be ideal if they could all be considered as part of a coordinated, mid-term plan.

Assuming that won't happen, perhaps the best that might be hoped for - considering the current stock shortage situation - would be a pilot morning fast Carmarthen -Cardiff/Newport service via the SDL (dep Carmarthen 07.10-ish) with a return working leaving Cardiff (17.20 or so?).

Nothing like ideal, I accept that, with no indication of the value of a Morriston station, nor able to make use of any higher speeds on the SDL either - but it might give a glimpse of the potential traffic from W Wales.
 
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Rhydgaled

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Assuming that won't happen, perhaps the best that might be hoped for - considering the current stock shortage situation - would be a pilot morning fast Carmarthen -Cardiff/Newport service via the SDL (dep Carmarthen 07.10-ish) with a return working leaving Cardiff (17.20 or so?).
The rolling stock suituation is dire; nothing is possible until the next franchise manages to obtain some extra stock.

When that time comes, then as far as a test fast commuter service to Cardiff is concerned departure from Carmarthen at 7am probably makes sense but for the return I would suggest the service leaves sometime around 18:00. The two reasons for this are that the 17:39 to Milford Haven is rather busy and that there is a London to Swansea service passing at 17:50. The later departure of the SDL service would thus allow passengers off that London train to connect into it, and it could overtake the 17:39 allowing long-distance passengers to wait at Cardiff for the 18:00 SDL service which, thanks to not stopping at Bridgend, Neath and Swansea, would hopefully not be jam-packed with shorter-distance commuters. Having to sets arriving at Carmarthen at a similar time would also allow one to continue to Fishguard and the other to Milford Haven, restoring the 20:30ish arrival in Fishguard that was withdrawn last week.

That last point raises a question though, which is which service should run ahead of the other from Llanelli to Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire. Should the SDL service (Cardiff-Milford) take the lead, allowing passengers from Cardiff to change to reach Fishguard on the following service (Swansea-Fishguard)? Or should the Swansea to Fishguard go first, giving passengers from Swansea to Milford Haven the opertunity of changing onto the Cardiff to Milford?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Bump up again the logic of spending / reallocating this £300K on the Hinterland Non Rail Project to an objective and quantified study of this potential route change. Implement within say 2 years (excluding building new SDL stations as this might take a bit longer to do)

Thinking of Rolling stock - Anglia will be releasing tranches of 153's and 156's - which could potentially allow a cascade to / within Wales to good effect.
 

MarkyT

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Any ideas on the Vale of Neath - or what is left of it) ?

I don't think it would be feasible to reinstate the old direct link from the Neath Valley into Neath GWR station but instead I suggest a new single track route following the Tennant Canal alignment to cross under the A465 other roads and the mainline using its existing bridges, then curving sharply over the river via a new structure to join the mainline at the south end of Neath station. Radius approx. 150m. If the missing link from Hirwaun to Glyn Neath was reinstated, then trains could run from the Cardiff valleys network through to Swansea via Aberdare, serving Neath and the Swanline stations once on the main line. The other remaining line from N&B Junction, to Onllwyn could also be tied into this putative suburban network but doesn't look so promising for passenger traffic.

Destroying a length of restored historic canal would be highly controversial I know, so probably completely out of the question alone, but conversely using that alignment might be a way to connect the VON to the broader passenger network at a reasonable cost. If there's no longer a need for coal trains to head towards the docks, the canal might be diverted via the current rail alignment on the other side of the A465. The levels seem very similar See attached: yellow = new rail route, blue = new canal route.

It is unfortunate the old rail alignments in the Swansea Valley have been so thoroughly obliterated by new roads and development. Perhaps there's an opportunity for more 'rail-like' bus services though, calling at strategically sited 'stations' adjacent to the fast road with car parks provided rather than following interminable local routes through the villages on the old roads. Those buses could then connect with fast Cardiff trains at a new SDL 'Morriston Parkway' (or an equivalent sited on the mainline) and continue on into central Swansea for the local clientele.
 

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70014IronDuke

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Slower linespeeds yes, but only the bit that's also part of the HOWL looks particularly twisty. The rest of the SDL looks straight enough for the current 50mph limit to be raised considerably, provided the viaducts can take it (the one that currently has a 20mph limit is a possible concern). The 70 minute journey time I would like to see between Carmarthen and Cardiff is perhaps improbable, but the chances look slightly better to me if you use the SDL.
....

I really have no clear recollection of line speeds back in the mid-70s when I was in S Wales, but my feeling is that the line speed of the SDL then was 70 or 75 mph. I say this from a kind of reverse logic point of view - I just never remember anyone talking about the disadvantage of running that way due to a 50 mph restriction - which somehow I feel would have come up at some stage.
 

70014IronDuke

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When that time comes, then as far as a test fast commuter service to Cardiff is concerned departure from Carmarthen at 7am probably makes sense but for the return I would suggest the service leaves sometime around 18:00. The two reasons for this are that the 17:39 to Milford Haven is rather busy and that there is a London to Swansea service passing at 17:50. The later departure of the SDL service would thus allow passengers off that London train to connect into it, and it could overtake the 17:39 allowing long-distance passengers to wait at Cardiff for the 18:00 SDL service which, thanks to not stopping at Bridgend, Neath and Swansea, would hopefully not be jam-packed with shorter-distance commuters. Having to sets arriving at Carmarthen at a similar time would also allow one to continue to Fishguard and the other to Milford Haven, restoring the 20:30ish arrival in Fishguard that was withdrawn last week.

That last point raises a question though, which is which service should run ahead of the other from Llanelli to Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire. Should the SDL service (Cardiff-Milford) take the lead, allowing passengers from Cardiff to change to reach Fishguard on the following service (Swansea-Fishguard)? Or should the Swansea to Fishguard go first, giving passengers from Swansea to Milford Haven the opertunity of changing onto the Cardiff to Milford?

The last problem would be a nice one to have :) I am sure you are right on the timings of any pilot fast Carmarthen -Newport service - I think I was influenced by my memories of a 'peak' relief service from the mid-70s. AFAIR we had a 14.50-ish ex Swansea to Newport, Cl 47 non-ETH with Mk 1 stock, which returned from Newport at around 17.00, arr Swansea 18.20 or so.

Often used for testing locos with a history of faults, running with an RSI.
This was before the Swanline stations (llansamlet etc) had been opened, so the only Swansea - Cardiff trains were the hourly Paddington Mk 2D/E/F Inter-cities.
 

70014IronDuke

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Swansea county has a large population with poor access to rail services. The SDL and a parkway station on it would vastly improve this. I take a guess but Sawnsea prolly has the greatest number of closed stations in a 20 mile radius of its centre of anywhere it's size.

hmmm. Quite a contentious statement, I would imagine (considering at least one-third of the area in question would be in the Bristol Channel :) )

time for a Trivia thread on that subject, Gareth? I would offer Stoke-on-Trent as a contender for the title.
 

70014IronDuke

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Only one departure from Shrewsbury does not leave at xx:52 in that timetable, the rest (fast and slow) all leave at xx:52 (so that the timetable is basiclly clockface every two hours at Chuch Stretton and Craven Arms).
yes, understood. But that does not solve the issue of what i've termed the 'Class B' stations. Would your semi-fast trains attract enough passengers without serving the likes of Bucknell and Knucklas?

Llandrindod, as you said yourself, is a rather important station. I really think it deserves far better than only four really slow services per day to Swansea. I also think places like Llandeilo and Llandovery should have a decent service northwards to Llandrindod and Shrewsbury not just to Swansea, I think ideally my limited stop service would run every two hours and passengers from intermediate stops could teleport on board as the train speeds through but that is of course impossible.

Llandrindod is clearly - at least with the present service - THE most important traffic centre on the line. But where do those 40,000 passengers actually go to and from? How many head south, long distance, and how many towards Craven Arms, Salop, Crewe or Birmingham and beyond? My guess would be something like 28k northwards, and about 12k south. And how many more could be attracted by doubling the service with limited-stop trains - as your timetable proposes? I suspect far more would be attracted to the north-bound services ... BICBW.

the problem is, Llandod may be the most important station on the route, but in the grand scheme of things, it's still tiny - popn 5,500 with an additional what, 5,000? in the catchment area.

Same for places like Landeilo and Llandovery - important for the HoWL, but tiny in absolute terms. And how many pax would be travelling north if an enhanced TT as per your scheme were to be introduced?

I'd be happy to be proved wrong (really), but I'd wager the returns on beefing up Llandovery-Llandeilo-Ammanford-Swansea services (especially the last two) would be far more immediate and sustainable than struggling to implement a comprehensive through service upgrade as per your TT.

If Arriva could find just a single 153 + crew to work either a 16.00 or 17.20 ex-Swansea - Llandovery (I think these are the only times it would work according to the present timetable on weekdays) I suggest the figures would soon show a dramatic improvement in loadings. (relatively)

Unless some wonder health cure could be had at the waters of Llandod or Llanwrtyd - or the Virgin appear at Llangadog or some such.....
 
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Parallel

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Class A stations - those with current usage figures in or around the 20,000 per annum level. ie Ammanford, Llandeilo, Llandovery, Knighton, along with Llandrindod, which at 40,000 per annum, makes it a Class A+

Class B stations - those with current (or recent past) usage figures in the 5,000 - 10,000 range, namely Pontadulais, Pantyfynnon (at a stretch), Llandybie, Llangadog, Llanwrytd, Knucklas and Bucknall. There is also Builth Rd, but I'm not sure how many of that station's 8,000+ annual usage figure comes in the week of the Welsh Show.

Class C stations - the rest, typically attract between 1,000 - 2,000 pax per year.

b) More fundamentally, in my mind your proposals are flawed because the timetable views and seeks to develop the line as a cross-country through route. This approach inevitably gives equal weighting to all sections of the route. IMO, this is a waste/misplacement of resources

Any development should focus on exploiting the potential of:

a) Ammanford-Swansea (with new passing loop at Ammanford or Pantyfynnon)

b) Llandovery/Llandeilo - Swansea & Llandrindod-Knighton - Craven Arms/Shrewsbury

By all means keep the four trains a day between Llandovery - Llandod as a basic social service, but I suggest this section, barring the discovery of gold at Sugar Loaf, will remain a basket case for the next millenium. It is the northern and southern sections of the line which have the populations and should attract investment to develop commuter traffic

Looking towards the South of the line, there is definitely large scope for improvements in passenger numbers at Pontarddulais and Ammanford (especially from commuting) but these towns (and the towns of Llandeilo and Llandovery) will also have passengers from the smaller stations feeding into them. Looking at Google maps, I think there would be a substantial improvement in passenger numbers at Ffairfach and Llandybie too, with an increased service judging by housing in the area. The passenger numbers for Pontarddulais are laughably bad, considering the town is meant to have a census of about 6,000 people. This is why I think stub services are the best option for the HOWL, especially because Sugar Loaf and Cynghordy stations are dead and there probably isn't a demand for more services between Llandrindod and Llandovery, compared to northbound and southbound respectively. In terms of Llangennech and Bynea, the railway will probably never be able to compete with the bus service. I think you'd need a Swansea type metro service stopping here to get passengers to change their journey habits, though you could have trains scheduled to stop here on the SDL. Also, the last services from Swansea and Shrewsbury are way too early, meaning you can't go out for a meal or a drink and return, which is, of course a big pull for using the train in the evening.

I've only used the line a handful of times, and every time the 14:05 departure from Shrewsbury (1x153) leaves full and standing with many leaving at Knighton and Llandrindod, but Broome, Bucknell and Knucklas were requested every time, which shows there is demand on the line. Builth Road would probably be more popular if there was a more frequent bus to the town connecting with the trains. As it stands currently, passengers either face a lengthy walk, or phone a taxi.

Yes, the line is a basketcase, but that's not to say we can't make the most of it. :D
 
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Gareth Marston

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hmmm. Quite a contentious statement, I would imagine (considering at least one-third of the area in question would be in the Bristol Channel :) )

time for a Trivia thread on that subject, Gareth? I would offer Stoke-on-Trent as a contender for the title.

There's 15 plus LMS / LNWR ones to start around Swansea.....
 

Rhydgaled

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Thinking of Rolling stock - Anglia will be releasing tranches of 153's and 156's - which could potentially allow a cascade to / within Wales to good effect.
Not sure about 153s, since Northern, Anglia and Great Western have all decided they would rather see the back of them than make them compliant with TSI-PRM regulations. ScotRail might be releasing 5x class 156 in December 2018 though, added to the 9 units from Anglia in late 2019 that's 14 units. 9 could cover a half-hourly Swansea-Whitland service with a new passing loop needed between Kilgetty and Narberth and one every two hours extended to each of Fishguard, Milford and Pembroke Dock. That would release a 175 or two from the Manchesters west of Swansea, and the three 150s on the SWA-PMD service. Essentially, the 14 156s might just be enough to allow the 8 153s to go for scrap, but EMT are likely to need these 14 units to replace their 153 fleet, unless they use 170s to do that (I wonder what LM are going to do about their Sprinters).

If anyone does decide to turn the 153s back into 155s and make them compliant with the TSI-PRM regulations, how long would such a project take?

I don't think it would be feasible to reinstate the old direct link from the Neath Valley into Neath GWR station but instead I suggest a new single track route
Interesting suggestion, but I don't see the need since the way I look at it the Vale Of Neath line is a 'Swansea ValleyLine', running into a 'Swansea Docks' station near the Fabian Way Park & Ride site. Of course you will need a tram from there into the city centre, unfortunately I cannot see a way of extending heavy rail into Swansea propper.

yes, understood. But that does not solve the issue of what i've termed the 'Class B' stations. Would your semi-fast trains attract enough passengers without serving the likes of Bucknell and Knucklas?
You're right, it doesn't do anything for the Class B stations. I think I did consider a every-two-hours stopping service from Shrewsbury to Knighton/Knucklas, with fast through trains to Swansea in some of the other hours, but for some reason discounted it. Maybe it didn't work with the positions of passing loops.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong (really), but I'd wager the returns on beefing up Llandovery-Llandeilo-Ammanford-Swansea services (especially the last two) would be far more immediate and sustainable than struggling to implement a comprehensive through service upgrade as per your TT.
You are absolutely going to get more revenue from regular commuters than occassional leisure traffic, so you are probably correct that Ammanford-Swansea services would be a bigger win in terms of revenue, but in terms of giving the entire line a chance of being seen as a useful asset I really think a number of through (semi-)fast services are absolutely necessary. My general feeling is that railways are better at providing long-distance fast links than they are at rural all-halts services (like the HOWL currently is). Buses don't need stations and aren't slowed quite as much by having to stop, so can stop everywhere more effectively than trains.

There's also the fact that going via Swansea and Cardiff is a heck of a long way round if heading to Scotland or the north of England, and there seems to be something about linking Manchester with Milford Haven. The old Manchester and Milford railway company failed of course, yet years later Milford Haven has through services to/from Manchester every two hours via a crazy indirect route! My music teacher has also asked me if there's a sensible way of getting to Manchester from S.W. Wales and I've said the only remotely logical route would be the HOWL, but of course there's a missing link between Carmarthen and Llandeilo which would be very hard to justify. If a bus service from Carmarthen connected into my proposed fast services at Llandeilo the journey to Shrewsbury could be done in under 3 and a half hours, only 15mins faster than some of the current through services I'll admit but it shows that there may be some potential in long-distance links via the HOWL.

I think stub services are the best option for the HOWL, especially because Sugar Loaf and Cynghordy stations are dead and there probably isn't a demand for more services between Llandrindod and Llandovery, compared to northbound and southbound respectively.
I think there could be demand for both, there may be more demand on the stub services yes but I prioritise the faster through service for some reason. That might be because, looking at Google Maps, Ammanford to Swansea currently takes 32min by car and 52min by train. That might not be a problem in the peaks, when road congestion could give rail the upper hand, but doesn't look like a recipe for strong off-peak use.

In terms of Llangennech and Bynea, the railway will probably never be able to compete with the bus service. I think you'd need a Swansea type metro service stopping here to get passengers to change their journey habits, though you could have trains scheduled to stop here on the SDL.
That's another part of the puzzle which is my lack of enthusasim for a 'stub service' at the southern end of the HOWL. Giving Llangennech and Bynea an enhanced service would make it harder to withdraw close those two stations, allowing the HOWL to do something about that journey time disadvantage into Swansea. Trains would take the SDL's viaduct over the Loughor then head south to Gowerton over a new line serving the eastern edge of Gorseinon, leaving nothing to serve Llangennech and Bynea unless you brought a tram-train up the cycle track from Killay to Gowerton then over the new viaduct to Llanelli. Being a tram, perhaps it could run to the centre of Llangennech via Llanelli bus station and Parc-Y-Scarlets rather than using the current out-of-town station. That last bit is probably pie-in-the-sky, but I just like throwing it out there.
 

edwin_m

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Having tried to do it, I can report that adding extra end to end services on the HoWL is virtually impossible as the passing loops aren't evenly spaced and if you timetable to pass one train somewhere you end up with one or other train waiting for a long time somewhere else. Increasing the end-to-end service would require at least two more loops, probably at places where trains wouldn't otherwise need to stop (or only on request) so further increasing journey times.

By contrast an extra short working at either end would be much easier to timetable because it would only need to pass one other train at a loop (plus maybe another on the double track sections).
 

Greenback

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I think that extra short workings at the southern and northenr ends would be far more beneficial than additional through services. I wouldn't close the door completely on adding one or two mor eend to end services, but the priority has to be Llandeilo to Swansea and Knighton to Shrewsbury.

Going back to the SLD, I see an opportunity for the WG to specify new some statiuons and some through services via the route in the new franchise. Hardly anyone seems keen for Cardiff to continue expanding, so let's get more homes and better connectivity in the lower Swansea Valley and the Neath Valley instead. Both the former and the latter can be served by feeder buses.
 

Gareth Marston

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I think that extra short workings at the southern and northenr ends would be far more beneficial than additional through services. I wouldn't close the door completely on adding one or two mor eend to end services, but the priority has to be Llandeilo to Swansea and Knighton to Shrewsbury.

Going back to the SLD, I see an opportunity for the WG to specify new some statiuons and some through services via the route in the new franchise. Hardly anyone seems keen for Cardiff to continue expanding, so let's get more homes and better connectivity in the lower Swansea Valley and the Neath Valley instead. Both the former and the latter can be served by feeder buses.

The crux of matter is your looking at it holistically taking into account land use and planning over a large area and other sectors. Aligning these with the numbers on the franchise spreadsheet is the problem.
 

Greenback

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Yes I am. I'm saying what I think should happen, not what will happen. I should have made that clearer!
 

Greenback

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Evrything seems to be planned for the short term as well. Ther eis veyr little in the way of long term or strategic thinking.
 

70014IronDuke

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Having tried to do it, I can report that adding extra end to end services on the HoWL is virtually impossible as the passing loops aren't evenly spaced and if you timetable to pass one train somewhere you end up with one or other train waiting for a long time somewhere else. Increasing the end-to-end service would require at least two more loops, probably at places where trains wouldn't otherwise need to stop (or only on request) so further increasing journey times.

By contrast an extra short working at either end would be much easier to timetable because it would only need to pass one other train at a loop (plus maybe another on the double track sections).

This is all true. However, the longest single line sections on the HoWL are in the very sections most suitable for an enhanced train service, ie Llandeilo - Llangenech (Morlais Jcn?) and Llandrindod-Knighton. Both these sections take approx 30 mins to clear.

Apart from (re-)installing loops half way along these sections (expensive, but jolly effective) the only way to shorten the clearing times would be to miss out stops or raise the line speed, where this is possible. But again, it means investment.
 
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