Swansea District line

[swcovas]

I mentioned this in passing (perhaps out of context) on another thread but with the re-doubling of the West Wales main line via Gowerton how do forum members see the future of the Swansea District line? There are current a handful of passenger trains using the line and some freight....could these easily be diverted possibly using Landore loop to avoid Swansea? Over the years there have been various calls for introduction of a regular passenger service on the Swansea district with new stations but nothing concreted is planned.

 

[Squaddie]

I don't think it would be possible to make much of a business case for new stations along the Swansea District Line, because most people living along that line would be wanting to go into Swansea for work or shopping, not Llanelli or Port Talbot. There may be a small number of people wishing to get to Cardiff, and who would benefit from the service, but probably not enough to make the idea financially viable. And even of those few passengers, many will still prefer to take a bus into Swansea and then a "proper" FGW train to Cardiff rather than a miserable DMU.

 

[swcovas]

For those interested these ideas for the Swansea District line were published back in 2005:

http://www.chartist.demon.co.uk/rdsw/sdl.pdf

 

[a good off]

The loaded tank trains from Robeston can't travel via Cockett Bank due to the steep gradient so they will still have to go via the District. However I do fear for the line remaining double track throughout. I think they should reintroduce local stations on the line and have two units working a Llanelli to Port Talbot shuttle service with through trains to and from Cardiff in the morning and evening peaks.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There will be strong political imperative to retain through services from West Wales to Cardiff once the wires reach Swansea (2018). Running an hourly DMU from Carmarthen and then taking a path between Swansea and Cardiff that should be EMU is bonkers.

I can see SDL future as the way a say 2 hrly DMU from West Wales accesses Cardiff, so electrification will in a funny way secure its future and of course the day the skeleton falls out the budget airline model's cupboard Fishguard will be a primary destinations fro Irish traffic once more.

 

[anthony263]

There will be strong political imperative to retain through services from West Wales to Cardiff once the wires reach Swansea (2018). Running an hourly DMU from Carmarthen and then taking a path between Swansea and Cardiff that should be EMU is bonkers.

I can see SDL future as the way a say 2 hrly DMU from West Wales accesses Cardiff, so electrification will in a funny way secure its future and of course the day the skeleton falls out the budget airline model's cupboard Fishguard will be a primary destinations fro Irish traffic once more.

Your view's here are something I think a lot of us here will agree on.

There has been a lot of development north of Swansea especially near to Morriston and at Llandarcy so I think it would be viable to have a regular passenger service along the line perhaps with a station close to Morriston which allows easy access to Morriston Hospital and the Liberty stadium.

Not only that it could help with overcrowding at Swansea station

 

[PHILIPE]

The loaded tank trains from Robeston can't travel via Cockett Bank due to the steep gradient so they will still have to go via the District. However I do fear for the line remaining double track throughout. I think they should reintroduce local stations on the line and have two units working a Llanelli to Port Talbot shuttle service with through trains to and from Cardiff in the morning and evening peaks.

Double to Single track !!! Surely lessons have been learnt. Nearby Cockett for example, Exeter to Yeovil Jn sections, Swindon to Kemble and other examples of singling in the past.

 

[anthony263]

Double to Single track !!! Surely lessons have been learnt. Nearby Cockett for example, Exeter to Yeovil Jn sections, Swindon to Kemble and other examples of singling in the past.

I agree and hope that those lessons have been learned by the WG and Network Rail.

You can do Carmarthen - Cardiff in about 1 hour 22 minutes with a stop at Llanelli & Port Talbot Parkway as journey times over the dristrict line is about 28 minutes between Llanelli & Port Talbot parkway but this could be cut if the speed restrictions are removed.

 

[james60059]

With the current infrastructure improvements on the railway between Swansea and Llanelli, mainly the redoubling and works on the Loughor bridge, will this have an adverse effect on the Swansea District Line?. I know there was talks of "rationalizing" - by that I assume singling the route or stretches of it but also there was/is aspirations to see a passenger service restored.

 

[Gareth Marston]

With the current infrastructure improvements on the railway between Swansea and Llanelli, mainly the redoubling and works on the Loughor bridge, will this have an adverse effect on the Swansea District Line?. I know there was talks of "rationalizing" - by that I assume singling the route or stretches of it but also there was/is aspirations to see a passenger service restored.

The only firm plans I've seen involving the SDL were for clearing it as an IEP diversionary route in NR CP5 Plans.
However when the wires reach Swansea it will logical that all the services on the south wales mainline are electric powered so the current Manchester-Marches-Cardiff-Swansea - West Wales hourly DMU service will become two groups Manchester-Cardiff and Swansea - West Wales. However political pressure form Pembrokeshire and Carmarthanshire will want to see through trains to Cardiff continue - the SDL could be a way for a limited service to run.

 

[anthony263]

The only firm plans I've seen involving the SDL were for clearing it as an IEP diversionary route in NR CP5 Plans.
However when the wires reach Swansea it will logical that all the services on the south wales mainline are electric powered so the current Manchester-Marches-Cardiff-Swansea - West Wales hourly DMU service will become two groups Manchester-Cardiff and Swansea - West Wales. However political pressure form Pembrokeshire and Carmarthanshire will want to see through trains to Cardiff continue - the SDL could be a way for a limited service to run.

I agree perhaps a west wales - Cardiff service running via the district line could interwork with the Cardiff - Gloucester/Cheltenham which is likely to be cut back to Cardiff once the Maesteg branch is wired.

A station near to Morriston or Llandarcy would be well used with all the housing devlopments in the area and the major congestion on local roads and the M4.

A report was done about regular services along the Swansea district line and I do have a copy somwhere on my pc

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I agree perhaps a west wales - Cardiff service running via the district line could interwork with the Cardiff - Gloucester/Cheltenham which is likely to be cut back to Cardiff once the Maesteg branch is wired.

A station near to Morriston or Llandarcy would be well used with all the housing devlopments in the area and the major congestion on local roads and the M4.

A report was done about regular services along the Swansea district line and I do have a copy somwhere on my pc

The SDL does seem a bit neglected but Swansea seems to have cared little about its rail infrastructure in the past even to the extent of promoting an Act of Parliament to abandon the Mumbles Railway. It is astonishing for a place with a population of about a quarter of a million has no meaningful suburban services. The whole place is drowning under road traffic.

Stations at Morriston and Llandarcy should be well used. As for the Maesteg service, from what I've heard, it is likely to be combined with Ebbw Vale. It seems that both lines will be wired as part of the South Wales Main Line.

 

[anthony263]

Hopefully we may get lucky someday and see trams return to Swansea even if it is just along the seafront from Mumbles to the civic centre using something like the parry people movers.

I have seen photos on facebook of a parry people mover demonstrator working on a short strech of line in swansea city centre close to St Marys square.

The Maesteg branch is expected to go to a half hourly frequency once the loop near Llamgynwydd is completed although with the lynfi loop at Tondu being upgraded for IEP perhaps that could be used by regular half hourly services rather than building a complete new passing loop a little further north.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Hopefully we may get lucky someday and see trams return to Swansea even if it is just along the seafront from Mumbles to the civic centre using something like the parry people movers.

I have seen photos on facebook of a parry people mover demonstrator working on a short strech of line in swansea city centre close to St Marys square.

The Maesteg branch is expected to go to a half hourly frequency once the loop near Llamgynwydd is completed although with the lynfi loop at Tondu being upgraded for IEP perhaps that could be used by regular half hourly services rather than building a complete new passing loop a little further north.

The loop at Tondu is in the wrong place to facilitate a half hourly service.

 

[swcovas]

I agree perhaps a west wales - Cardiff service running via the district line could interwork with the Cardiff - Gloucester/Cheltenham which is likely to be cut back to Cardiff once the Maesteg branch is wired.

A station near to Morriston or Llandarcy would be well used with all the housing devlopments in the area and the major congestion on local roads and the M4.

A report was done about regular services along the Swansea district line and I do have a copy somwhere on my pc

Perhaps the report you're thinking of is:

http://www.chartist.demon.co.uk/rdsw/sdl.pdf

Published by railfuture in, I think, 2005. Interesting reading.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Something which is likely to influence the future of the SDL is the plan import biomass to Milford Haven with onward transportation by rail which, rumour has it, could mean upward of TEN trains a day plus the, again rumoured, possibility of Tesco trains to Haverfordwest/Milford. How much of this would run at night though?

 

[anthony263]

Perhaps the report you're thinking of is:

http://www.chartist.demon.co.uk/rdsw/sdl.pdf

Published by railfuture in, I think, 2005. Interesting reading.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Something which is likely to influence the future of the SDL is the plan import biomass to Milford Haven with onward transportation by rail which, rumour has it, could mean upward of TEN trains a day plus the, again rumoured, possibility of Tesco trains to Haverfordwest/Milford. How much of this would run at night though?

This point has been raised and most likely some freights would have to run overnight.

Network rail have suggested cutting back the swanline so that it only runs between Swansea & Port Talbot Parkway when the Maesteg service goes half hourly. This would be a major mistake in my opinion since a lot of passengers want to go to Cardiff.

Of course now that the wires are going to reach Swansea perhaps emu's will be easier to path

 

[swcovas]

The SDL does seem a bit neglected but Swansea seems to have cared little about its rail infrastructure in the past even to the extent of promoting an Act of Parliament to abandon the Mumbles Railway. It is astonishing for a place with a population of about a quarter of a million has no meaningful suburban services. The whole place is drowning under road traffic.

Stations at Morriston and Llandarcy should be well used. As for the Maesteg service, from what I've heard, it is likely to be combined with Ebbw Vale. It seems that both lines will be wired as part of the South Wales Main Line.

Scandalous as it was, not really fair to look at what happened in 1960 to the Mumbles. Different era., different mentality and in a way just along the general trend of closing lines at the time.

However, I fully agree that today Swansea is, as you say, “drowning under road traffic”. The rush hours especially are horrendous from every direction. Buses from Ammanford & Llandeilo (on the Heart of Wales line) take about 1h5m and 1h 30m respectively whereas the train takes only an hour from Llandeilo and 50m from Ammanford…..even with reversal at Llanelli! Unfortunately with 4 trains a day (half hourly bus from Ammanford) it just can’t compete although I know many people would choose to go by train given a more attractive timetable.

But that’s another story. An extra train a day would be good and in an ideal world rebuilding a section of line from the SDL to Gowerton and then on to the West Wales main line to get HOWL trains into Swansea would be a superb scenario!

 

[anthony263]

A 2 hourly service would be good on the heart of wales line with a hourly service during the peaks between Llandovery & Swansea & Llandrindod - Shrewsbury.

I have seen how terrible traffic is around Swansea with being stuck on buses which are running late because of congestion.

After electrification west wales services should run to Swansea where they will terminate with Manchester services being cut back to Cardiff Central.

That said there should be an hourly/2 hourly Milford Haven - Cardiff - Gloucester service which would use the Swansea district line perhaps using some 2 carriage class 175's if ATW get additionaal dmu's or use displaced class 150's from the Cardiff Valleys. A station near Llandarcy and Morriston would help relieve some of the congestion on the local roads and the M4 as well as on services running out of Swansea High Street station

 

[swcovas]

A 2 hourly service would be good on the heart of wales line with a hourly service during the peaks between Llandovery & Swansea & Llandrindod - Shrewsbury.

Street station

Nice as it would be a 2 hourly service realistically just ain't gonna happen nor an hourly from Llandovery.....at least not for a LONG time. The best that could be hoped for in the shortish term is an extra through train plus/or a short working into Swansea.

Work is going on to press for an improved service with, at the moment, a "Community Management Study" underway. A cost benefit analysis was also done in 2010 by Jacobs Consultancy. This produced positive Benefit/Cost Ratios - but obviously not positive enough! Even then the proposed tt with an extra train each way didn't (IMO) redress the shortcomings of the current tt.

 

[Llanigraham]

They can't manage to give us an hourly service on the Cambrian, so getting an improvement on the Heart of Wales is most unlikely.
Plus I doubt it would fit very easily into the timetable on the Craven Arms - Salop line.
(and wouldn't be very popular with the 'box at the Arms either!)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

With the current infrastructure improvements on the railway between Swansea and Llanelli, mainly the redoubling and works on the Loughor bridge, will this have an adverse effect on the Swansea District Line?. I know there was talks of "rationalizing" - by that I assume singling the route or stretches of it but also there was/is aspirations to see a passenger service restored.

Unlikely - a good bit of the SWD line was relaid some 5 years or so ago using the High Output train (losing the W6 container clearance in the process - but they are pledged to restore that if traffic arises !) - agreed traffic is a bit low , but then the old staples of loco hauled boat and Tenby trains + oil flows dissapeared since the M4 and pipelines were put in. Should be safe.

 

[Michael.Y]

What about some kind of MGR service - Swansea - Llanelli - Bynea - Llangennech - SDL New Stations - Port Talbot - Baglan - Briton Ferry - Neath - Sgiwen - Llansamlet - Swansea?

 

[anthony263]

What about some kind of MGR service - Swansea - Llanelli - Bynea - Llangennech - SDL New Stations - Port Talbot - Baglan - Briton Ferry - Neath - Sgiwen - Llansamlet - Swansea?

The only downside is that trains have to pass through Briton Ferry & Baglan to get to Port Talbot to reverse back towards Neath & Swansea.

I suggest having a clockface timetable between Cardiff & Swansea with the peak hour extra's from Swansea to London cut back to start from Cardiff like they do off peak leaving Swansea with just the hourly service to London.

The spare path per hour can then be used for a service from west wales to Cardiff via the Swansea district line. Services can be formed of class 158's or 175's of which there may be some spare if Manchester services are cut back to Cardiff Central. ATW should have a good number of 150's displaced from the Cardiff Valleys which can work service in west wales

There will still be paths for a hourly swanline service through to Cardiff along with the half hourly service from Maesteg which will also have enough time using emu's to call at Brackla if the station there is built (Certainly that is a station that will do well being close to Brackla, Bridgend and Waterton industrial estates)

The SDL will need work done to remove a number of the speed restrictions with a station built at Morriston to service the Swansea enterprise Park, DVLA, Clase estate, Morriston Hospital & the Swansea valley. The station could also be served by the Swansea Metro providing a frequent quick link to Swansea High Street Station, Swansea city Centre and Singleton Hospital.

Another station could be built close to Llandarcy to serve the major housing development which could be a good selling point.

As for the swanline services perhaps a half hourly service could run between Swansea & Port Talbot with 1 train per hour continuing to Cardiff (perhaps Newport & Bristol)

There will also still be the hourly semi-fast train from swansea to Cardiff which will call at Pyle in addition to the swanline services.

 

[Rhydgaled]

However when the wires reach Swansea it will logical that all the services on the south wales mainline are electric powered so the current Manchester-Marches-Cardiff-Swansea - West Wales hourly DMU service will become two groups Manchester-Cardiff and Swansea - West Wales. However political pressure form Pembrokeshire and Carmarthanshire will want to see through trains to Cardiff continue - the SDL could be a way for a limited service to run.

That's pretty much as I think it should be, Manchesters terminating at Cardiff or Swansea and seperate local services from Swansea to Carmarthen/PEMBS/HOWL. Hopefully this would also mean Manchesters can be formed of longer trains since there would no longer be the issue of lighter loadings west of Swansea.

The number of through trains between Llanelli and Cardiff is now slightly more than hourly (with some HOWL trains extended to Cardiff etc. plus the evening Fishguard). Would a 2-hourly PEMBS-Cardiff class 158 over the SDL be enough of a through Cardiff service or is continuation of an hourly Cardiff service required?

With the current infrastructure improvements on the railway between Swansea and Llanelli, mainly the redoubling and works on the Loughor bridge, will this have an adverse effect on the Swansea District Line?. I know there was talks of "rationalizing" - by that I assume singling the route or stretches of it but also there was/is aspirations to see a passenger service restored.

Network Rail mentioned rationalisation of the SDL west of Llandarcy in one of their documents, but that was published some time ago and I haven't found any updates on the suituation. It wasn't clear what for 'rationalisation' would take though, it could be cutting down signaling, linespeeds etc. rather than reducing double-track to single-track. I have seen no 'official' asperations for using the SDL for passenger trains.

The SDL does seem a bit neglected but Swansea seems to have cared little about its rail infrastructure in the past even to the extent of promoting an Act of Parliament to abandon the Mumbles Railway. It is astonishing for a place with a population of about a quarter of a million has no meaningful suburban services. The whole place is drowning under road traffic.

Stations at Morriston and Llandarcy should be well used. As for the Maesteg service, from what I've heard, it is likely to be combined with Ebbw Vale. It seems that both lines will be wired as part of the South Wales Main Line.

The SDL is not really part of Swansea's rail infrustructure. It bypasses Swansea, just as roads bypass some settlements along their routes. In terms of local Swansea connectivity it does not appear very useful. However, because of this it provides a route which, if used, would leave rail at much less of a geographical disadvantage against the M4 + dual-carriageway to Carmarthen.

Perhaps the report you're thinking of is:

http://www.chartist.demon.co.uk/rdsw/sdl.pdf

Published by railfuture in, I think, 2005. Interesting reading.

I've been sent a draft of the new railfuture developement plan for Wales, it contains a suggestion for an hourly Intercity service from London Paddington to Carmarthen!

Network rail have suggested cutting back the swanline so that it only runs between Swansea & Port Talbot Parkway when the Maesteg service goes half hourly. This would be a major mistake in my opinion since a lot of passengers want to go to Cardiff.

Of course now that the wires are going to reach Swansea perhaps emu's will be easier to path

I think the Swanlines only running to Port Talbot idea was in the SWWITCH rail strategy study. However, I no longer have a copy of that sadly and SWWITCH don't either. They would like an updated study done but have no funds available for that purpose. Anyone here good at business cases etc.?

But that’s another story. An extra train a day would be good and in an ideal world rebuilding a section of line from the SDL to Gowerton and then on to the West Wales main line to get HOWL trains into Swansea would be a superb scenario!

The only reason for not rebuilding the line you are talking about in my opinion is the loss of trains to serve Bynea and Llangennech. A tram network for Swansea, using low-floor dual-voltage tram-trains (all stops would be new for the trams, but sections of heavy rail would be used and electrified at 25kv AC so they don't block future heavy rail electrification.) could use street running to serve Bynea and Llangennech, and link Llanelli bus station and Parc-Y-Scarlets to Llanelli heavy rail station.

A 2 hourly service would be good on the heart of wales line with a hourly service during the peaks between Llandovery & Swansea & Llandrindod - Shrewsbury.

I have seen how terrible traffic is around Swansea with being stuck on buses which are running late because of congestion.

After electrification west wales services should run to Swansea where they will terminate with Manchester services being cut back to Cardiff Central.

That said there should be an hourly/2 hourly Milford Haven - Cardiff - Gloucester service which would use the Swansea district line perhaps using some 2 carriage class 175's if ATW get additionaal dmu's or use displaced class 150's from the Cardiff Valleys. A station near Llandarcy and Morriston would help relieve some of the congestion on the local roads and the M4 as well as on services running out of Swansea High Street station

I think Cardiff - Gloucester/Cheltenham is more of an outer-suburban route, so class 170s or 172s, maybe even 150s, would be appropriate, whereas Cardiff - Llanelli - Carmarthen - PEMBS via the SDL would be a regional express service and must use either 158s or 175s.

Nice as it would be a 2 hourly service realistically just ain't gonna happen nor an hourly from Llandovery.....at least not for a LONG time. The best that could be hoped for in the shortish term is an extra through train plus/or a short working into Swansea.

In my opinion, the current four trains a day is plenty for most of the stations on the HOWL, and there should be no more all-stops services. However, I think a few of the busier stations should have at least a 2-hourly service, if each station call costs 2 minutes then the additional services with reduced calling pattern would have a similar journey time to Shrewsbury as via Cardiff. If anyone knows just how fast you could time a limited-stop service, please let me know. Because of the vast difference in timings, you couldn't make it clockface 2-hourly, in fact you might end up with some 1-hour and some 3-hour gaps, but the nearer to 2-hourly the better.

What about some kind of MGR service - Swansea - Llanelli - Bynea - Llangennech - SDL New Stations - Port Talbot - Baglan - Briton Ferry - Neath - Sgiwen - Llansamlet - Swansea?

The only local Swansea connectivity use I could think of for the SDL was Swansea/Llanelli - Bynea - Morriston (new station) - Swansea Docks (new station) and Ammanford - Morriston (new station) - Swansea Docks (new station) services, using both the SDL and the freight only line that comes off it. However, when I've suggested this in the past, conerns have been raised that it would not be attractive as it is too curciutous a route (like HOWL - Swansea via Llanelli) and doesn't get you to the central Swansea (High Street) station. I think the Swansea Docks station would be just east of Fabian Way park and ride.

-------------------

If we had 3-car class 377 EMUs for the electrified ValleyLines (or any EMU with usable through-corridor connections between units in multiple) if you could save paths by running:

• Hourly Swansea/Maesteg - Ebbw Vale all stations service, join/split at Bridgend
• Hourly Swansea/Maesteg - Bristol Temple Meads service, running non-stop between Bridgend and Cardiff and calling at Neath, Port Talbot and Pyle only west of Bridgend on the Swansea portion, join/split at Bridgend

That does mean the stops between Bridgend and Cardiff only have an hourly service, but hopefully leaves plenty of room for non-stop Llanelli - Port Talbot services from Carmarthen/PEMBS, plus services from Morriston/Llandovery to Cardiff and the PAD - SWA services (would be nice if a second semi-fast (not calling at Pyle) could be retained between Swansea and Cardiff also)

 

[swcovas]

I've been sent a draft of the new railfuture developement plan for Wales, it contains a suggestion for an hourly Intercity service from London Paddington to Carmarthen!

I would be very interested to read that when it's available. However, I cannot believe traffic volume will EVER warrant an hourly Carm-Pad service especially omitting Swansea.


The only reason for not rebuilding the line you are talking about in my opinion is the loss of trains to serve Bynea and Llangennech. A tram network for Swansea, using low-floor dual-voltage tram-trains (all stops would be new for the trams, but sections of heavy rail would be used and electrified at 25kv AC so they don't block future heavy rail electrification.) could use street running to serve Bynea and Llangennech, and link Llanelli bus station and Parc-Y-Scarlets to Llanelli heavy rail station.

Not my suggestion I hasten to point out but mentioned in the Railfuture doc. and I think Bynea & Llangennech would have been catered for by a new service running via the SDL. The great advantage of relaying the line from the SDL to the West Wales main line would of course bring the substantial town of Gorseinon back on to the rail map. As far as I know reconstruction wouldn't be too complicated.



In my opinion, the current four trains a day is plenty for most of the stations on the HOWL, and there should be no more all-stops services. However, I think a few of the busier stations should have at least a 2-hourly service, if each station call costs 2 minutes then the additional services with reduced calling pattern would have a similar journey time to Shrewsbury as via Cardiff. If anyone knows just how fast you could time a limited-stop service, please let me know. Because of the vast difference in timings, you couldn't make it clockface 2-hourly, in fact you might end up with some 1-hour and some 3-hour gaps, but the nearer to 2-hourly the better.

I am not sure that the Swansea – Salop journey time can be reduced by enough to make it comparable to The Marches route. An express service would ideally stop at Pantyffynon, Ammanford, Llandybie (maybe?) Llandeilo, Llandovery, Llanwrtyd, Builth, Llandrindod, Knighton, Bucknell (maybe?) Craven Arms & Church Stretton.
You could run fast to Pantyffynon but as things stand with speed restrictions at crossings etc you would still have to stop (or slow to 10mph depending on direction) at Pontardulais (tunnel), Llandybie, Ffairfach, Glanrhyd (crossing and the bridge), Llangadog, Llanwrda, Berthdu crossing before Llanwrtyd, Llandrindod crossing separate from the station), Dolau and Bucknell. There may be a few others I’ve omitted, I’m not sure. Probably the best gains in time would be between Llandrindod and Craven Arms because most stops could be missed. However, the counter argument is these lightly used stations are in the area most poorly served by public transport and so are most in need of the best service on the line.
So as things stand you could omit around a dozen stations on a limited stop service. On your suggestion of 2 mins stopping time then you could save around 20/25 mins on a current tt of 3h 50m (times vary) so maybe a 3h 30m journey as opposed to around 3h on the Marches. Of course if level crossings were modernised this could probably be reduced by another 20/30 mins. And I’ve never understood why Glanrhyd bridge only built in 1988 has a speed restriction.
Just prior to privatisation there WAS a single “express” in the down direction which took 3h 33h according to the only tt I have to hand, winter 88/9 and there was a time when this ran through to Tenby in summer marked in the tt as a sprinter operated service (a 150/2). At this time there was also a SO only, well used, extra morning Llandovery-Swansea with return evening service.
The journey time could be reduced but whether it would ever be a really competitive alternative to the Marches line for through Swansea – Salop passengers is another matter.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

At the risk of straying into the past - the sort of service in the 1940's was "fast" Salop to Swansea at about 3 /4 hourly intervals with a Brynamman West / Llandeilo to Llanelli local - (connecting at Pontardulais into a local to Swansea Victoria via Dunvant) - apologies for spelling.

The HoW is an enigma .....the light rail plans for crossings saved it pre 1970 - One cant help thinking though with all the Swansea "SA" development and the move of retailing areas towards the seaside - how along term plan in fantasy mode - might mean a new route off the GWML into Swansea along Jersey Marine and a rebuilding of the old route via Dunvant. Neath would have to be looked after of course.

 

[Gareth Marston]

At the risk of straying into the past - the sort of service in the 1940's was "fast" Salop to Swansea at about 3 /4 hourly intervals with a Brynamman West / Llandeilo to Llanelli local - (connecting at Pontardulais into a local to Swansea Victoria via Dunvant) - apologies for spelling.

The HoW is an enigma .....the light rail plans for crossings saved it pre 1970 - One cant help thinking though with all the Swansea "SA" development and the move of retailing areas towards the seaside - how along term plan in fantasy mode - might mean a new route off the GWML into Swansea along Jersey Marine and a rebuilding of the old route via Dunvant. Neath would have to be looked after of course.

Swansea and old LNWR line south of Pontardulais to Victoria is the classic example of a line that would very much be relevant day it went right past what is now Swansea University - Treforest at the door of Uni of Glam has footfall of nearly a million some sort of light rail solution maybe best long term option extending over the Tawe to link up to Neath Riverside.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've been sent a draft of the new railfuture developement plan for Wales, it contains a suggestion for an hourly Intercity service from London Paddington to Carmarthen!

I would be very interested to read that when it's available. However, I cannot believe traffic volume will EVER warrant an hourly Carm-Pad service especially omitting Swansea.

I put an exclamation mark for a reason, I think an hourly PAD-Carmarthen service is totally unreasonable.

An hourly Carmarthen - Llanelli - Port Talbot - Bridgend - Cardiff SDL service operated using single 158s is what I'd aim for. It's not too unrealistic since that is the current frequency of through service and the old SWWITCH mooted 3tph between Swansea and Carmarthen, I'd simply have 2tph Swansea - Carmarthen and 1tph Cardiff - Carmarthen (via SDL) instead of SWWITCH's 3tph from Swansea to Carmarthen.

The only reason for not rebuilding the line you are talking about in my opinion is the loss of trains to serve Bynea and Llangennech. A tram network for Swansea, using low-floor dual-voltage tram-trains (all stops would be new for the trams, but sections of heavy rail would be used and electrified at 25kv AC so they don't block future heavy rail electrification.) could use street running to serve Bynea and Llangennech, and link Llanelli bus station and Parc-Y-Scarlets to Llanelli heavy rail station.

Not my suggestion I hasten to point out but mentioned in the Railfuture doc. and I think Bynea & Llangennech would have been catered for by a new service running via the SDL. The great advantage of relaying the line from the SDL to the West Wales main line would of course bring the substantial town of Gorseinon back on to the rail map. As far as I know reconstruction wouldn't be too complicated.

I agree on the benifits of reopening the HOWL - Gorseinon - Gowerton link, but in my opinion stopping trains from S.W.Wales between Llanelli and Port Talbot defeats the object of running via the SDL, which means finding some other way of serving Llangennech and Bynea.

In my opinion, the current four trains a day is plenty for most of the stations on the HOWL, and there should be no more all-stops services. However, I think a few of the busier stations should have at least a 2-hourly service, if each station call costs 2 minutes then the additional services with reduced calling pattern would have a similar journey time to Shrewsbury as via Cardiff. If anyone knows just how fast you could time a limited-stop service, please let me know. Because of the vast difference in timings, you couldn't make it clockface 2-hourly, in fact you might end up with some 1-hour and some 3-hour gaps, but the nearer to 2-hourly the better.

I am not sure that the Swansea – Salop journey time can be reduced by enough to make it comparable to The Marches route. An express service would ideally stop at Pantyffynon, Ammanford, Llandybie (maybe?) Llandeilo, Llandovery, Llanwrtyd, Builth, Llandrindod, Knighton, Bucknell (maybe?) Craven Arms & Church Stretton.

You have come to a similar conclusion as I have. Going by the published passenger numbers presented on wikipedia, mine would be:

Gowerton, Llanelli/Gorseinon, Pantyffynon (maybe), Ammanford, Llandybie (maybe?) Llandeilo, Llangadog (maybe), Llandovery, Llanwrtyd, Builth Road, Llandrindod, Knucklas (maybe), Knighton, Bucknell (maybe?) Craven Arms & Church Stretton.

Perhaps serve the 'maybes' on alternate fast trips, except Pantyffynnon which is dependant on whether it can be timed to connect there with Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen - Swansea services which would serve all stations from Pantyffynnon southwards.

You could run fast to Pantyffynon but as things stand with speed restrictions at crossings etc you would still have to stop (or slow to 10mph depending on direction) at Pontardulais (tunnel), Llandybie, Ffairfach, Glanrhyd (crossing and the bridge), Llangadog, Llanwrda, Berthdu crossing before Llanwrtyd, Llandrindod crossing separate from the station), Dolau and Bucknell. There may be a few others I’ve omitted, I’m not sure.

How hard are those to sort out?/How many can be easily sorted?

The journey time could be reduced but whether it would ever be a really competitive alternative to the Marches line for through Swansea – Salop passengers is another matter.

Maybe not competitive for Swansea - Shrewsbury, at least not without the Gorseinon link, but Llanelli - Shrewsbury maybe? At any rate, I would think it should make journeys from the main HOWL stations to either end, and between HOWL stations, considerably more attractive.

 

[swcovas]

I put an exclamation mark for a reason, I think an hourly PAD-Carmarthen service is totally unreasonable.

An hourly Carmarthen - Llanelli - Port Talbot - Bridgend - Cardiff SDL service operated using single 158s is what I'd aim for. It's not too unrealistic since that is the current frequency of through service and the old SWWITCH mooted 3tph between Swansea and Carmarthen, I'd simply have 2tph Swansea - Carmarthen and 1tph Cardiff - Carmarthen (via SDL) instead of SWWITCH's 3tph from Swansea to Carmarthen.

I agree on the benifits of reopening the HOWL - Gorseinon - Gowerton link, but in my opinion stopping trains from S.W.Wales between Llanelli and Port Talbot defeats the object of running via the SDL, which means finding some other way of serving Llangennech and Bynea.

You have come to a similar conclusion as I have. Going by the published passenger numbers presented on wikipedia, mine would be:

Gowerton, Llanelli/Gorseinon, Pantyffynon (maybe), Ammanford, Llandybie (maybe?) Llandeilo, Llangadog (maybe), Llandovery, Llanwrtyd, Builth Road, Llandrindod, Knucklas (maybe), Knighton, Bucknell (maybe?) Craven Arms & Church Stretton.

Perhaps serve the 'maybes' on alternate fast trips, except Pantyffynnon which is dependant on whether it can be timed to connect there with Gwaun-Cae-Gurwen - Swansea services which would serve all stations from Pantyffynnon southwards.

How hard are those to sort out?/How many can be easily sorted?

Maybe not competitive for Swansea - Shrewsbury, at least not without the Gorseinon link, but Llanelli - Shrewsbury maybe? At any rate, I would think it should make journeys from the main HOWL stations to either end, and between HOWL stations, considerably more attractive.

I agree with your points but feel many of this is so long term particularly the rebuilding of the line down through Gorseinon not saying that this should not be aimed and pressed for.

As I read it the Railfuture doc, “West Wales Direct”, suggests an interchange station at Grovesend which would connect with trains from West Wales, Llanelli and Bynea & Llangennech which would mean that the latter two would not lose their service. I gather you perceive trains from West Wales running fast from Llanelli to PT to maximise the advantages of the SDL. Of course if the Gorseinon line were to ever be rebuilt it could be argued that the speed advantages and passenger potential gained from Gorseinon would mean it worth sacrificing the two little used stations at Bynea & Llangennech and just running a minimal Parliamentary train to cover them. I am not advocating station closures, just playing devil’s advocate!

As regards resolving the speed restrictions, the crew operated scenarios at Llandybie, Ffairfach, Llangadog, (Stop, Whistle, Proceed at Llanwrda), Llandovery, Llandrindod, Dolau, & Bucknell (and others) could all easily be resolved and add ridiculously to the journey time. But of course it’s all a matter of money! When the train is belting along the Tywi Valley or between Knighton and Craven Arms it seems amazing that the journey takes so long. And yes, I agree with that maybe the line will never be really competitive for journeys between Swansea & Salop via the Marches (especially with the frequency of service) it will make access into and out of HOWL towns and villages far more attractive.

Being realistic the HOWL has to press for an improved service and I believe that the most realistic situation in the short term will be an extra through train with maybe an extra short working. Prior to privatisation personally I found the service quite adequate….not perfect but pretty well ok. The tt proposed in the cost benefit analysis a couple of years ago included one extra train during weekdays but basically FITTED INTO THE EXISTING timetable (plus a recast Sunday service of 3 trains). The current study underway is going to, correctly in my opinion, look at services on the line from “blank sheet of paper” approach rather than try to tweak the existing service. Hopefully something positive is going to happen though we’re going to have to wait a while for a new station at Gorseinon!

 

[Rhydgaled]

There will be strong political imperative to retain through services from West Wales to Cardiff once the wires reach Swansea (2018). Running an hourly DMU from Carmarthen and then taking a path between Swansea and Cardiff that should be EMU is bonkers.

I can see SDL future as the way a say 2 hrly DMU from West Wales accesses Cardiff, so electrification will in a funny way secure its future and of course the day the skeleton falls out the budget airline model's cupboard Fishguard will be a primary destinations fro Irish traffic once more.

That's almost exactly my view on what the future should be:

• Wires to Swansea meaning almost all trains going there terminate (2tph class 156s from the west and electrics from the east) and
• Through trains from the west to Cardiff provided as express services (with class 158s) over the SDL.

Where I am undecided is whether the SDL service should just be 0.5tph Cardiff - Milford Haven or if there should be a 0.5tph Carmarthen - Cardiff on top of that to maintain an hourly Carmarthen - Cardiff services.

I've produced a video on the Swansea District Line, hopefully to raise awareness.