SWR being not very ‘south west’: your thoughts?

[Future]

I’ve noticed SWR (South Western Railway), no longer run particularly western routes. The furthest south west they currently operate is Exeter, but despite this, the main corridor they use is the ‘Pompey Direct’, Portsmouth evidently not being generally considered to be the south west. I think SWR was just blithely renamed to disassociate itself from SWT. SWT were definitely more of a ‘western’ operator, with services into to the SW including Brighton - Paignton, Waterloo - Plymouth and even reaching Penzance on weekends. What are your thoughts?

 

[Neptune]

Wasn’t it December 2009 when SWT stopped serving destinations west of Exeter?

 

[Class172]

I don’t see anything wrong with the name given its network broadly sits to the south-west of London, which is generally seen as the hub of the English railway network.

 

[abn444]

I’ve noticed SWR (South Western Railway), no longer run particularly western routes. The furthest south west they currently operate is Exeter, but despite this, the main corridor they use is the ‘Pompey Direct’, Portsmouth evidently not being generally considered to be the south west. I think SWR was just blithely renamed to disassociate itself from SWT. SWT were definitely more of a ‘western’ operator, with services into to the SW including Brighton - Paignton, Waterloo - Plymouth and even reaching Penzance on weekends. What are your thoughts?

I believe the SWR name and SWT before it came from the fact that it was largely the former South Western Division of Network SouthEast

 

[yorksrob]

iMO SWR should run as far as Plymouth via Okehampton.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I believe the SWR name and SWT before it came from the fact that it was largely the former South Western Division of Network SouthEast

And prior to that, the London and South Western Railway.

 

[baza585]

I’ve noticed SWR (South Western Railway), no longer run particularly western routes. The furthest south west they currently operate is Exeter, but despite this, the main corridor they use is the ‘Pompey Direct’, Portsmouth evidently not being generally considered to be the south west. I think SWR was just blithely renamed to disassociate itself from SWT. SWT were definitely more of a ‘western’ operator, with services into to the SW including Brighton - Paignton, Waterloo - Plymouth and even reaching Penzance on weekends. What are your thoughts?

The South West Main Line runs from Waterloo to Weymouth. The Pompey direct is a branch off that at Working.


There is an awful lot of things wrong with SWR, but the name isn't one of them......

 

[Neptune]

iMO SWR should run as far as Plymouth via Okehampton.

Are we going to go down this avenue yet again?

 

[yorksrob]

Are we going to go down this avenue yet again?

Yes, why not.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I’ve noticed SWR (South Western Railway), no longer run particularly western routes. The furthest south west they currently operate is Exeter, but despite this, the main corridor they use is the ‘Pompey Direct’, Portsmouth evidently not being generally considered to be the south west. I think SWR was just blithely renamed to disassociate itself from SWT. SWT were definitely more of a ‘western’ operator, with services into to the SW including Brighton - Paignton, Waterloo - Plymouth and even reaching Penzance on weekends. What are your thoughts?

So is that why I'd have seen a Class 170 at Reading, presumably going to Brighton, back in Autumn 2006?

 

[Western Sunset]

"South West" covers the counties of Cornwall and Devon, Somerset and Dorset, and Gloucestershire and Wiltshire - plus various unitary authorities within these historic counties. It regularly serves four of these counties, so not bad really from a geographical perspective.

 

[swt_passenger]

I believe the SWR name and SWT before it came from the fact that it was largely the former South Western Division of Network SouthEast

Alternatively the Southwestern division of the Southern Railway set up at grouping.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Most of SWR's services (broadly) lie between those of Great Western Railway and Southern. That makes them pretty south western to me!

 

[A S Leib]

Is Penrith considered to be in the Pennines? Some of TransPennine's services are slightly off the mark if not.

The last time I checked, Solihull wasn't Welsh.

I think the population centre of Great Britain's around Hinckley and the geographical centre in Lancashire, so Grand Central's a bit off.

At least Chiltern has the most stations in the Chilterns (although I think Great Missenden, Saunderton, Goring & Streatley and Tring are the only ones actually in the AONB - Cholsey and Pangbourne look like they're in the North Wessex Downs).

 

[Surreytraveller]

You could say the same about a lot of TOCs. Does Avanti West Coast go anywhere near the West Coast?
Does Great Northern go anywhere near the North (yes, I know that's not a TOC)

 

[yorksrob]

You could say the same about a lot of TOCs. Does Avanti West Coast go anywhere near the West Coast?
Does Great Northern go anywhere near the North (yes, I know that's not a TOC)

Avanti goes right along it - but only between Lancaster and Carnforth.

 

[A S Leib]

Does Great Northern go anywhere near the North?

Great Norfol(k)rn?

 

[Irascible]

"South West" covers the counties of Cornwall and Devon, Somerset and Dorset, and Gloucestershire and Wiltshire - plus various unitary authorities within these historic counties. It regularly serves four of these counties, so not bad really from a geographical perspective.

Or for those of us in Devon & Cornwall, it stops after just nibbling a bit of west Somerset Gloucestershire? that's west Midlands.

It's London & South Western Railway territory, it's not a problem. If the 159s had a bit more performance I'd say maybe run them to Plymouth ( via Newton Abbott! ) again, but llet's not thrash them too hard, I want them to last...

 

[London Trains]

You could say the same about a lot of TOCs. Does Avanti West Coast go anywhere near the West Coast?
Does Great Northern go anywhere near the North (yes, I know that's not a TOC)

Yes Avanti does, north of Lancaster.

Great Northern is a stupid name, and with Thameslink on the ECML now it would make more sense to just transfer Kings Lynn services to LNER and all services out of Moorgate to TfL and do away with the brand.

 

[Andyh82]

It’s the south western quadrant of the south east, rather than the south west of England. I can see where confusion lies though

TPE’s ‘North West’ services is another one that doesn’t remotely fit, as mentioned above

 

[Gloster]

I reckon that a fair number of the privatised names are the British (well, particularly English) habit of thinking that by using old-fashioned names, in this case one of or resembling old railway companies, everything will be as good as it was then in those mythical days of yore. Brightly painted steam locos with shining brass, respectful staff, restaurant cars, etc., will suddenly be conjured up if you make the operator’s name sound old fashioned. No mention of everything being covered in coal dust, undernourished staff (well, that is likely to return soon), half-cold Brown Windsor soup, etc. Smoke gets in your eyes.

 

[Master29]

iMO SWR should run as far as Plymouth via Okehampton.

On this basis why not Penzance?

 

[dk1]

On this basis why not Penzance?

They did go to Penzance on weekends.

 

[Master29]

They did go to Penzance on weekends.

Indeed. I remember them well.

 

[dk1]

Indeed. I remember them well.

They where a bit hit & miss in the latter days however but all good fun & offered some refreshing change along the SDML & beyond.

 

[WizCastro197]

But as aforementioned GWR operate in most of the same counties in the west of England which SWR service as well, but GWR is the main operator in all apart from Dorset.

SWR works well as if it were to extend further it would definitely encroach onto GWR dominated areas and it would make SWR obsolete

But one could also argue that GWR is not so south west as well as they both serve Portsmouth and Southampton aswell as Reading to Gatwick airport via Redhill all in SouthEast?

They used to serve Bristol but since Pandemic it has ceased to run. But it appears as if it is unlikely that it will return.

I’ve noticed SWR (South Western Railway), no longer run particularly western routes. The furthest south west they currently operate is Exeter, but despite this, the main corridor they use is the ‘Pompey Direct’, Portsmouth evidently not being generally considered to be the south west. I think SWR was just blithely renamed to disassociate itself from SWT. SWT were definitely more of a ‘western’ operator, with services into to the SW including Brighton - Paignton, Waterloo - Plymouth and even reaching Penzance on weekends. What are your thoughts?

But doesn’t the DfT choose routes for TOCs now? So ideally it’s not up to SWR to decide whether they service these Paignton and Penzance Trains. Does anyone know the specific reason that they weren’t included in the new franchise? I am Purely at this moment assuming they had low numbers and were unprofitable. Please correct if wrong

At least I think that’s how it works? I am not too certain
Hopefully it doesn’t set off any alarm bells for anyone.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

South Western Railway, or South West Trains before it, may not serve the entire region of South West England - I feel the "proper" South West operator really would be GWR, or Wessex Trains before it, that it could be argued that GWR or Wessex Trains should be SWR and today's SWR merged with GTR Southern to form SR (Southern Railway) - if TOCs are to be re-assigned for geographical reasons.

However, as others have pointed out, SWR does make sense because:

- It's the SW part of the old Network South East & Southern Region
- Also historically refers to the L&SWR
- Most of its stations and network are in the SW of London Waterloo also most trains travel in SW direction of Waterloo
- It runs SW London commuter services
- Also refers to the South Western Main Line all the way to Weymouth
- Waterloo is the SW located terminus in Central London
- It serves four counties which are in the SW England region
- Its south western terminuses of Exeter & Weymouth are in the SW England region


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Slightly off topic here,

Agree about Great Northern - makes less sense than SWR, I reckon the Moorgate services should go to Thameslink and some King Cross commuter services should go to Thameslink too as 700s and 717s are used extensively as Thameslink branded 700s would rock up at KGX operating Great Northern services. Then Thameslink would become an exclusive Desiro City fleet operator.
The longer distance services to Cambridge etc should go to LNER or Greater Anglia.

 

[dk1]

Agree about Great Northern - makes less sense than SWR, I reckon the Moorgate services should go to Thameslink and some King Cross commuter services should go to Thameslink too as 700s and 717s are used extensively as Thameslink branded 700s would rock up at KGX operating for Great Northern. The longer distance services to Cambridge etc go to LNER or Greater Anglia.

It was keeping everything to each London termini that saw the GA/FCC split from WAGN in the first place.

LNER nearly had a hold on the Lynn services as they where originally planned to be operated by 5-car IEPs until the plan was scuppered.

 

[swt_passenger]

But doesn’t the DfT choose routes for TOCs now? So ideally it’s not up to SWR to decide whether they service these Paignton and Penzance Trains. Does anyone know the specific reason that they weren’t included in the new franchise? I am Purely at this moment assuming they had low numbers and were unprofitable. Please correct if wrong

At least I think that’s how it works? I am not too certain
Hopefully it doesn’t set off any alarm bells for anyone.

SWT used to run various occasional services beyond Exeter. They were all intentionally withdrawn by DfT in 2009 to coincide with the Axminster loop being added to allow the hourly service to Exeter using the existing amount of rolling stock. GWR were then tasked with filling in the few gaps caused in the service pattern beyond Exeter. This all happened quite a while ago, it was in the 2007 franchise specification so it’s nothing to do with any recent franchise changes such as removing services to Bristol.

 

[Grecian 1998]

As a general rule, running once a day services over routes which see plenty of other trains is very expensive - this is why Bristol - Waterloo and Great Malvern - Brighton services have been withdrawn recently. It costs a lot to train staff on routes where only a tiny number of trains actually run, and where there are plenty of alternative services to use it's an easy cost saving.

SWR's services west of Exeter were withdrawn 13 years ago so that there could be an adequate number of 159s on the core route. Given that overcrowding on 3 coach services is common west of Axminster or east of Yeovil Junction (particularly beyond Gillingham), it's an effective use of resources. I used through services from Axminster to Teignmouth several times in high summer and the changeover of passengers at Exeter seemed to be around 90%. Probably even higher outside of summer, although granted that is just an anecdote.

Back on topic, franchise names are affected by history. There's no logical reason why the 'Great West' extends further west than the 'South West' but in railway terms it always has been. Similarly, the West Coast main line may spend little time behind the seaside and most of the Great Northern Railway was in the southern half of the country (I believe the original company's line ran out in a field north of Doncaster), but the names live on long beyond their original designation.

There's probably a degree of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. In a similar way, mileposts from Taunton to Penzance are measured from Paddington via Bristol despite the fact only a handful of services go that way, and mileposts from Castle Cary to Dorchester on the Heart of Wessex are measured from Paddington via Melksham and Thingley Junction, despite the fact trains stopped travelling that way in 1906, a mere 116 years ago. Why? That's how things have always been done.