SWR Class 458 to be retained

[43096]

If you see the 458s solely as 442 replacements, themselves a sop to portsmouth direct passengers who were desparate for 2+2 end doored stock, then the opportunity to replace both simultaneously and more-standardise the fleet seems to good to pass up. The fact that the portsmouth line customers are getting 2+2 third-doors stock does alter the picture somewhat but the usual standardisation arguments still apply

Potentially looking at it a slightly different way, and obviously dependant on future situation, you could replace the 444s & 15x to then cascade back 444s to portsmouth direct and other "secondary" long distance lines, allowing you to then get rid of the third-door microfleet

I'd say there is more of an argument to replace the entire 444/450/458 fleet with either a single type of 20m vehicle length train with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 but with outer-suburban and long distance interior variants, or take a leaf out of Southern's book and have a mix of 2+2 and 3+2 in each set, assuming 3+2 is still needed at that stage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say there is more of an argument to replace the entire 444/450/458 fleet with either a single type of 20m vehicle length train with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 but with outer-suburban and long distance interior variants, or take a leaf out of Southern's book and have a mix of 2+2 and 3+2 in each set, assuming 3+2 is still needed at that stage.

In essence, other than the 159s, the rolling stock policy adopted by London Midland (i.e. 2 varieties of the same 20m 4-car* EMU, one long distance, one more local) would work fine for SWR. The 444s are lovely but they are different from the main fleet in the way they didn't really need to be (and in being so have reduced flexibility).

But as the 458s are workable enough it'd probably be a waste of money to do it now. Maybe in 20 years or so?

* If there are 10-car suburban routes you'd want a few 5s I suppose.

 

[Goldfish62]

Makes sense replacing the grab rails considering they currently suit only metro layouts.

Hopefully this means the new ones will be painted in more matching SWR colours?

Well, as stated on another thread the only reason they weren't repainted blue as planned on the Desiros is that it was found that it would take too much time and expense to remove them for recoating.

That won't be a problem on the 458s as bits fall off the interiors on a regular basis.

 

[Mikey C]

The 159s need replacing within the next few years, the 458s (provided they are reliable back at 100mph) don't

I don't see much connection between the 2 fleets anyway, the Exeter service require something very different, both because they need to be bimodes, but also due to the "inter city" nature and distance of the full Exeter to Waterloo journey

 

[JonathanH]

The 159s need replacing within the next few years

Give it ten years.

I don't see much connection between the 2 fleets anyway, the Exeter service require something very different, both because they need to be bimodes, but also due to the "inter city" nature and distance of the full Exeter to Waterloo journey

The route isn't aimed at the full Exeter to Waterloo journey. There is a quicker alternative. It is not an 'inter city' route, although there were very heavy weekend loadings back from the rural parts of Dorset to London until March 2020. It is a regional service which becomes a commuter service.

 

[py_megapixel]

The route isn't aimed at the full Exeter to Waterloo journey.

Cheaply priced Advances did lure a lot of holidaymakers in particular to use it for one though

 

[JonathanH]

Cheaply priced Advances did lure a lot of holidaymakers in particular to use it for one though

Fine, that is not a reason to put 'inter city' trains on it. Something with a similar layout to a 458 would be entirely adequate when the time comes, just as it will be on the Portsmouth line.

 

[py_megapixel]

Fine, that is not a reason to put 'inter city' trains on it. Something with a similar layout to a 458 would be entirely adequate when the time comes, just as it will be on the Portsmouth line.

I don't disagree - in fact, if the feeling of a "proper" inter-city train can lure some people back onto GWR, where there is much more capacity, then so much the better.

That said, regardless of who it's catering to, a journey of that length is going to need something a bit more than a commuter EMU - though if the 458 refurbishment proves adequate for Portsmouth then, as you say, I can't see any reason it also wouldn't be suitable for Exeter.

 

[py_megapixel]

Seem to be people here talking about them getting 2+2 seating - from photos online it seems that some carriages are 2+2 and some 3+2 - what's the deal here?

Also, is the carriage removed from each unit going to be the ex-GEx one that were inserted last time they were re-formed, or is there some reason they'd want to pick a different one to take out?
I assume there's also no chance that they'll get the original retractable gangways on the cab ends back?

 

[JonathanH]

I assume there's also no chance that they'll get there original retractable gangways on the cab ends back?

Yes, absolutely no chance of that.

 

[Kite159]

Seem to be people here talking about them getting 2+2 seating - from photos online it seems that some carriages are 2+2 and some 3+2 - what's the deal here?

Also, is the carriage removed from each unit going to be the ex-GEx one that were inserted last time they were re-formed, or is there some reason they'd want to pick a different one to take out?
I assume there's also no chance that they'll get the original retractable gangways on the cab ends back?

I guess the areas where it's currently 2+1 will gain seats to make it 2+2

 

[Goldfish62]

I guess the areas where it's currently 2+1 will gain seats to make it 2+2

They're 1+1 near the doorways.

Seem to be people here talking about them getting 2+2 seating - from photos online it seems that some carriages are 2+2 and some 3+2 - what's the deal here?

There's no 2+3 seating in the 458/5s. It's all a mix of 2+2 and 1+1.

 

[py_megapixel]

There's no 2+3 seating in the 458/5s. It's all a mix of 2+2 and 1+1.

Ah, is this photo (from Wikimedia Commons, dedicated to the public domain) out of date then?

 

[Goldfish62]

Ah, is this photo (from Wikimedia Commons, dedicated to the public domain) out of date then?

Very out of date! They look very different now.

 

[py_megapixel]

Very out of date! They look very different now.

Fair enough - I assume that's from before the first time the formation was changed then

 

[Goldfish62]

Fair enough - I assume that's from before the first time the formation was changed then

Here's what they're like now.

 

[spark001uk]

I do hope this refurb will take care of all the fish tank windows they've got.

 

[py_megapixel]

Here's what they're like now.

Ah ok, that's more in line with what I saw when I was in the South West a few years ago, I didn't actually go on a 458 the though so it was just what I saw through windows

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract

Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract · Porterbrook

www.porterbrook.co.uk

So £45m on 442s now £25m on 458's and with 90 701's coming or is a 95 if they exercised options along with 172 444/450's SWR will have too much EMU stock if the May timetable is new baseline. So am surprised this has been announced so quickly until there was clearer strategy over what resources are needed in the post covid world.

 

[swt_passenger]

I do hope this refurb will take care of all the fish tank windows they've got.

That’s the assumption earlier in this thread, if by “fish tank windows” you’re referring to the ex-460 vehicles.

 

[py_megapixel]

That’s the assumption earlier in this thread, if by “fish tank windows” you’re referring to the ex-460 vehicles.

I think possibly they may have been talking about the windows where rainwater has become trapped between the panes making it look like a fish tank?

 

[43096]

That’s the assumption earlier in this thread, if by “fish tank windows” you’re referring to the ex-460 vehicles.

No, it's where the window seals go and water gets in - like this particularly horrible example. As far as I can tell, SWR have neglected to replace any of these since they've had the franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

No, it's where the window seals go and water gets in - like this particularly horrible example. As far as I can tell, SWR have neglected to replace any of these since they've had the franchise.

Ok then. So defects, not looks...

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Alstom seem willing to have their name attached to the 458s, so they will want them to look decent. The Porterbrook press release includes this peace of puffery from an Alstom executive:

Peter Broadley MD Services, UK & Ireland, Alstom said: “We are very pleased to have been awarded this important contract, a reflection of our excellent relationships with Porterbrook and SWR, as well as the skills and professionalism of our team at Widnes. Passengers can now look forward to the upgrade of the very reliable Alstom-built Class 458.”

 

[sleeper fan]

So do we have confirmation that they will only run on the PDL.or could some end up Poole Weymouth way as some Weymouth/ Poole trains do sometime go.on to form a PDL service and vice versa?

 

[DennisM]

No, it's where the window seals go and water gets in - like this particularly horrible example. As far as I can tell, SWR have neglected to replace any of these since they've had the franchise.

View attachment 93929

As you say, not just 458s but a SWR maintenance issue as this is quickly becoming an increasingly common sight on 450/444s too, even present on the freshly repainted ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you say, not just 458s but a SWR maintenance issue as this is quickly becoming an increasingly common sight on 450/444s too, even present on the freshly repainted ones.

I have never, that I recall, seen that issue on a LNR 350. To the extent that I had forgotten it was even a thing.

This being the case, are First now skimping on maintenance?

 

[spark001uk]

No, it's where the window seals go and water gets in - like this particularly horrible example. As far as I can tell, SWR have neglected to replace any of these since they've had the franchise.

View attachment 93929

Correct, that's what I meant.
As for the ex 460 vehicles (and the six complete ex 460 units) - probably just as well they're not reusing them, I imagine the mainline swr livery would have looked a bit odd with the black ribbon glazing running through it.

 

[fgwrich]

That won't be a problem on the 458s as bits fall off the interiors on a regular basis.

It's funny that you should mention that, I was looking through my phone earlier for the few photos I've taken of the 458 interiors over the last few years. Most happen to be of defects and most commonly leaks coming through the ceiling panels around the Pantograph well. I also hope that the CCTV system is upgraded during this refurb / refresh as well, because I can tell you that it is utterly useless, and some of the worst and slowest I've ever had the pleasure of working with.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Correct, that's what I meant.
As for the ex 460 vehicles (and the six complete ex 460 units) - probably just as well they're not reusing them, I imagine the mainline swr livery would have looked a bit odd with the black ribbon glazing running through it.

From my random observations it was the ex-458/0 vehicles that seem to be worse affected by the fish tank windows than the ex-460 vehicles but that is not a definitive statement. I do not know whether the water sloshing about has had any affect on corrosion around the window frames.