SWR Class 458 to be retained

[4REP]

The 1995 timetable shows that the two primary services from Waterloo were xx35 '91' to Weymouth and xx48 '92' to Poole. I think that both were 442s. I think something like 21 of 24 were diagrammed at one point. Maybe I have misunderstood and you were describing 442s in their post-BML days.

Also there were a few slammer diagrams (cig/bep/cig) on 92. 0755 off Bournemouth(from Wareham) then 1645 Return and used for the rest of the day on 2 trips ending in Bournemouth Depot.

 

[spark001uk]

I don't think standing passengers are going to be an issue for a very long time, assuming the timetable is not heavily cut back.

It is possible the reverse of this could happen of course, at least in the short term. Even though plenty of seats might be available, passengers may be wary of sitting next to/opposite a stranger, preferring then to stand up if they can't find anything at a suitable distance?

Yes, you're right. Also the last train from Waterloo at 2350 has been withdrawn.

I've never known such a low service level on the Reading line. Looks like post-Covid reality is biting.

I note that the 2320 (2C77) off Waterloo is getting reinstated though, and the 2312 ex Reading (2C80) is being re-extended to Waterloo - albeit starting ten mins earlier at 2302.

 

[antharro]

The seats in the 442s are exactly the same ones that they had in GatEx days. They're standard Chapman seats, as fitted extensively in new and refurbished stock from the late 90s onwards.

The 458 seats (from Compin) are OK for short journeys, but they're mushy and lack support thus when the foam collapses you end up sat on the seat frame. They're also very easy to vandalise.

Indeed, I was referring to the refurb seat vs. the seats they had in their SWT days.

I don't care for the 458 seats on a longer journey - Reading to Waterloo was a bit too long. Still, there are worse seats out there for sure.

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed, I was referring to the refurb seat vs. the seats they had in their SWT days.

I don't care for the 458 seats on a longer journey - Reading to Waterloo was a bit too long. Still, there are worse seats out there for sure.

Oh yes, much worse!

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The 458s could get new Fisa Leans for standard, with the existing First Class seats transferred from the 442s?

Too bad if the 458s are to get the lacklustre Compin First Class seats a la 350s/450s.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 458s could get new Fisa Leans for standard, with the existing First Class seats transferred from the 442s?

Too bad if the 458s are to get the lacklustre Compin First Class seats a la 350s/450s.

Given the DfT are going to want the refurb done as cheaply as possible I'm not expecting anything spectacular.

 

[Monty]

To be honest the existing seats are pretty good, for both standard and first. If they can find away to adjust the seating layout and add a few tables while keeping the existing seats then you're on to a winner.

 

[JonathanH]

The 458s could get new Fisa Leans for standard, with the existing First Class seats transferred from the 442s?

Too bad if the 458s are to get the lacklustre Compin First Class seats a la 350s/450s.

Why would they replace the first class seats already fitted other than to replace the moquette with that drab dark blue matt 'leather' they seem to consider appropriate.

458s had the Compin First Class seats in their first incarnation as seen here.

Interior Details

[Webpage includes a picture of class 458 first class as initially installed - nothing obvious to quote]

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Why would they replace the first class seats already fitted other than to replace the moquette with that drab dark blue matt 'leather' they seem to consider appropriate.

458s had the Compin First Class seats in their first incarnation as seen here.

Interior Details

[Webpage includes a picture of class 458 first class as initially installed - nothing obvious to quote]

You're possibly right as 350s are operated on LNR intercity/express services with the Compin first class seats that the covers simply will get replaced with the darker SWR faux-leather in use on 450s.

The 442 First Class seats probably will go in storage to be eventually fitted in refurbished 158-9s also as spares for 444s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're possibly right as 350s are operated on LNR intercity/express services with the Compin first class seats that the covers simply will get replaced with the darker SWR faux-leather in use on 450s.

The 442 First Class seats probably will go in storage to be eventually fitted in refurbished 158-9s also as spares for 444s.

It's been pointed out upthread (or elsewhere) that LNR's long distance services are primarily a budget offering, so the quality of the rolling stock is fairly unimportant. This isn't true of SWR.

 

[Goldfish62]

You're possibly right as 350s are operated on LNR intercity/express services with the Compin first class seats that the covers simply will get replaced with the darker SWR faux-leather in use on 450s.

The 442 First Class seats probably will go in storage to be eventually fitted in refurbished 158-9s also as spares for 444s.

Yes, makes perfect sense.

Class 458 1st Class:
Reinstate curtains, reading lights, carpet, partition doors, retrim seats.

Job done.

 

[dingdinger]

Taken from twitter

 

[D365]

Taken from twitter

Pity that it doesn’t confirm how many (or which) 458 units will be retained!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It is possible the reverse of this could happen of course, at least in the short term. Even though plenty of seats might be available, passengers may be wary of sitting next to/opposite a stranger, preferring then to stand up if they can't find anything at a suitable distance?

I don't think so... on my most recent shopping trips I've had at least one Southern 455 where something like 75% of the seats were occupied with only a small number standing - and those who were standing were just as close to each other as those in the seats...

 

[HamBuoy]

Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract

Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract · Porterbrook

www.porterbrook.co.uk

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I am sorry to hear that the 442s are not coming back now.

 

[Snow1964]

Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract

Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract · Porterbrook

www.porterbrook.co.uk

Leases extended to 2027 per Porterbrook

Starting to think my prediction of 7-10 years extra use is too long as now appears to be 6 years. But that would still allow a common fleet replacement of 458, 158, 159 and possibly the Portsmouth-Cardiff fleet (new tri-modes replacing All these? )

 

[DorkingMain]

In their original (4 car) form, 458s were prohibited from south of Haslemere on the Direct (I remember that the pre-refurb-farewell railtour had to turn back there). Which poses some questions that someone on here might be able to answer:

Does that restriction still apply in rebuilt (5 car) form?

Was/is it based on an actual issue on the route, or was it just that since there's no need for them to use the line, there was no point in carrying out the relevant checks?

If there was/is an actual issue, what work may now be needed to remove it?

TIA for any information.

Guidance I have from a few years ago suggests 458s are cleared on all the same routes as a 450

Why are they reducing to 4 car if they’re replacing 5/10 car 442s?

458s are 20m coaches (similar to 450), 442s are 23m coaches (similar to 444)

Thus 12x458 is roughly equivalent to 12x450 or 10x442/444

Leases extended to 2027 per Porterbrook

Starting to think my prediction of 7-10 years extra use is too long as now appears to be 6 years. But that would still allow a common fleet replacement of 458, 158, 159 and possibly the Portsmouth-Cardiff fleet (new tri-modes replacing All these? )

I would imagine the 158s/159s are more of a priority for replacement than the 444/450/458 (which are of a similar younger age).

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the 158s/159s are replaced with 3rd rail / diesel bi-mode Aventras, and then Desiros / Junipers with long distance seated Aventras. But I don't expect the latter until 2030s

 

[Goldfish62]

Taken from twitter

Thanks!

So looks like current seats retained, but otherwise pretty much as expected for an upgrade to mainline standards.

No mention of an upgrade of the awful PIS.

Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract

Porterbrook awards Alstom £25m fleet upgrade contract · Porterbrook

www.porterbrook.co.uk

Good news for retaining jobs at Widness.

 

[4REP]

Guidance I have from a few years ago suggests 458s are cleared on all the same routes as a 450


458s are 20m coaches (similar to 450), 442s are 23m coaches (similar to 444)

Thus 12x458 is roughly equivalent to 12x450 or 10x442/444


I would imagine the 158s/159s are more of a priority for replacement than the 444/450/458 (which are of a similar younger age).

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the 158s/159s are replaced with 3rd rail / diesel bi-mode Aventras, and then Desiros / Junipers with long distance seated Aventras. But I don't expect the latter until 2030s

The WOE fleet in my view should be replaced by Bi mode 5 car version of class 730s with gangways and end doors. So splitting all services at Salisbury and some possibly Yeovil. More capacity would be created.
The current WOE fleet is now knackered and out of date. Luggage capacity a huge issue particularly in the summer.

The WOE fleet in my view should be replaced by Bi mode 5 car version of class 730s with gangways and end doors. So splitting all services at Salisbury and some possibly Yeovil. More capacity would be created.
The current WOE fleet is now knackered and out of date. Luggage capacity a huge issue particularly in the summer.

Or in future replace the entire Desiro/Juniper/Turbo fleet with BI mode based on class 730s so diagramming will be better. A uniformed express fleet can work all over the long distance network.

 

[Goldfish62]

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the 158s/159s are replaced with 3rd rail / diesel bi-mode Aventras, and then Desiros / Junipers with long distance seated Aventras. But I don't expect the latter until 2030s

Judging by the track record of Aventra I wouldn't be surprised if it gets no more orders. Alstom are in a position whereby they can dump it and just blame it on Bombardier.

 

[43096]

The WOE fleet in my view should be replaced by Bi mode 5 car version of class 730s with gangways and end doors. So splitting all services at Salisbury and some possibly Yeovil. More capacity would be created.
The current WOE fleet is now knackered and out of date. Luggage capacity a huge issue particularly in the summer.


Or in future replace the entire Desiro/Juniper/Turbo fleet with BI mode based on class 730s so diagramming will be better. A uniformed express fleet can work all over the long distance network.

That seems like a horrific waste. Replacing a fleet of 110 diesel and 845 electric vehicles all with electro-diesels that will spend the majority of their time lugging diesels around for no use (and using energy to do so) is both expensive in terms of acquisition cost and also for running and maintenance costs. You may want a common platform (say, FLIRT with or without a power car as appropriate), but having them all identical is a massive over-provision for non-electric working.

 

[Snow1964]

The WOE fleet in my view should be replaced by Bi mode 5 car version of class 730s with gangways and end doors.

Or in future replace the entire Desiro/Juniper/Turbo fleet with BI mode based on class 730s so diagramming will be better. A uniformed express fleet can work all over the long distance network.

I think the 458s are a stopgap and as there will be only about 112-120 vehicles will be seen as non standard, which is why I think they will be replaced with west of England fleets in 2026-2027. I suspect they will be 25kv capable (even if transformers not initially fitted)

I am working on assumption that 444 and 450s will remain until 2035-2040 because cost of replacing them decade earlier would be too high

 

[Domh245]

That seems like a horrific waste. Replacing a fleet of 110 diesel and 845 electric vehicles all with electro-diesels that will spend the majority of their time lugging diesels around for no use (and using energy to do so) is both expensive in terms of acquisition cost and also for running and maintenance costs. You may want a common platform (say, FLIRT with or without a power car as appropriate), but having them all identical is a massive over-provision for non-electric working.

Slightly tongue in cheek, but an 100% diesel engined fleet could help with power restrictions at the London end!

I think the 458s are a stopgap and as there will be only about 112-120 vehicles will be seen as non standard, which is why I think they will be replaced with west of England fleets in 2026-2027. I suspect they will be 25kv capable (even if transformers not initially fitted)

I am working on assumption that 444 and 450s will remain until 2035-2040 because cost of replacing them decade earlier would be too high

Sort of goes without saying these days that a new build will be 25kV capable - since the slammer replacement most stock has had provisions for it, and the most recent DC only fleets (701 & 707) have both had a couple of units running around on AC early in the programme! Agreed that Desiros are unlikely to be replaced for a good few years yet

 

[supervc-10]

A WOE bi-mode fleet replacing the 158/159 fleets and a similar DC unit to replace the 458s would work well. I think the 159s do benefit from being end doored units when out beyond Salisbury, but pre-pandemic they were very busy at peak times from Salisbury to London.

A bi-mode would have the distinct disadvantage of being able to find the noisy 159s before the platform is called at Waterloo though!

 

[RealTrains07]

Makes sense replacing the grab rails considering they currently suit only metro layouts.

Hopefully this means the new ones will be painted in more matching SWR colours?

 

[43096]

A WOE bi-mode fleet replacing the 158/159 fleets and a similar DC unit to replace the 458s would work well. I think the 159s do benefit from being end doored units when out beyond Salisbury, but pre-pandemic they were very busy at peak times from Salisbury to London.

A bi-mode would have the distinct disadvantage of being able to find the noisy 159s before the platform is called at Waterloo though!

I'm not sure why people are lumping 158/159 replacement in with 458 replacement? The logical solution would be to run the 458s until you replace the combined Juniper and Desiro fleet with a single design - the 458s aren't really that much older than the 450s.

 

[Domh245]

I'm not sure why people are lumping 158/159 replacement in with 458 replacement? The logical solution would be to run the 458s until you replace the combined Juniper and Desiro fleet with a single design - the 458s aren't really that much older than the 450s.

If you see the 458s solely as 442 replacements, themselves a sop to portsmouth direct passengers who were desparate for 2+2 end doored stock, then the opportunity to replace both simultaneously and more-standardise the fleet seems to good to pass up. The fact that the portsmouth line customers are getting 2+2 third-doors stock does alter the picture somewhat but the usual standardisation arguments still apply

Potentially looking at it a slightly different way, and obviously dependant on future situation, you could replace the 444s & 15x to then cascade back 444s to portsmouth direct and other "secondary" long distance lines, allowing you to then get rid of the third-door microfleet

 

[DorkingMain]

I'm not sure why people are lumping 158/159 replacement in with 458 replacement? The logical solution would be to run the 458s until you replace the combined Juniper and Desiro fleet with a single design - the 458s aren't really that much older than the 450s.

Agreed. Standardisation isn't the be all and end all when the 458s will be functionally similar to a 450.

The age of 158/159s and the fact they're burning barrels of diesel every day running Waterloo - Basingstoke on electrified lines is surely a greater priority.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you see the 458s solely as 442 replacements, themselves a sop to portsmouth direct passengers who were desparate for 2+2 end doored stock, then the opportunity to replace both simultaneously and more-standardise the fleet seems to good to pass up. The fact that the portsmouth line customers are getting 2+2 third-doors stock does alter the picture somewhat but the usual standardisation arguments still apply

I think you're standardising the wrong thing, to be honest - standardising the EMUs would be the way to go - but as others have said not for about 20 years.