SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Juniper Driver]

It's 8 units. All of 458529-536 go off lease.

Yeah, I get that, but it seems to be a waste to get rid of 529 and 530.

 

[43096]

Yeah, I get that, but it seems to be a waste to get rid of 529 and 530.

Why? When the fleet was specified it was based on a specific requirement for the Pompey direct, as 12-car formations. Presumably the intent was 8 x 12-car formations with four maintenance units on top. Taking an extra two units is no help - if you need four maintenance sets for 24 in traffic, then you can't run 27 in traffic from 30.

The waste would be to spend money on leasing and refurbishing trains that you don't have a use for... although you might say that applies to the entire 458/4 fleet now!

 

[nctd2306]

Does anyone know when 529-536 go off lease?

Likely when they run out of miles

 

[Juniper Driver]

Why? When the fleet was specified it was based on a specific requirement for the Pompey direct, as 12-car formations. Presumably the intent was 8 x 12-car formations with four maintenance units on top. Taking an extra two units is no help - if you need four maintenance sets for 24 in traffic, then you can't run 27 in traffic from 30.

The waste would be to spend money on leasing and refurbishing trains that you don't have a use for... although you might say that applies to the entire 458/4 fleet now!

Are they planning to use them on the Pompey direct now?
Just seems a waste while they are so short of trains.
They do change their minds all the time, so it seems, and they are using them on the Windsor side now, as we all know.
They could still use them on the Windsor side while we are waiting for the 701'a to take over.

But you've made your point and I get it, so what will be, will be.

 

[DelW]

The waste would be to spend money on leasing and refurbishing trains that you don't have a use for... although you might say that applies to the entire 458/4 fleet now!

It does seem that a lot of money has been spent making the /4s less suitable for their current role than they were as /5s. Though I still have a faint hope that they might eventually displace 450s from the Direct.

Are they planning to use them on the Pompey direct now?
Just seems a waste while they are so short of trains.
They do change their minds all the time, so it seems, and they are using them on the Windsor side now, as we all know.

At least they're being used for something, which looked unlikely at one stage.

Yesterday I had a Google notification of an article in Rail magazine, whose headline referred to use of 458s to Portsmouth. However it's behind a paywall, so I don't know whether this is from a reliable source or just more speculation.

 

[Juniper Driver]

They are better reverting to what they were, and the top speed makes them more versatile.
They'd still need to train up other depots drivers who no longer drive them.
Fratton Guildford Woking?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I am sure that I read in this thread that the 458/4s are not permitted to operate between Bracknell and Reading as they are out of gauge because of the stiffer suspension installed during the refurbishment to support the proposed faster running on the Portsmouth Direct services.

They ran to Reading as 458/0s back in the day. Presumably the changes to allow the higher speeds aren't as simple as undoing whatever was done during the 458/5 project then?

 

[WarrenTManager]

Does anyone know when 529-536 go off lease please?

8531/4 have already.
8532 is in handback process.
8529/30/33/35/36 run until either a C4 or C6 is due which ever mileage ceiling is attained first.

 

[cactustwirly]

They ran to Reading as 458/0s back in the day. Presumably the changes to allow the higher speeds aren't as simple as undoing whatever was done during the 458/5 project then?

I would imagine it's a paperwork issue, or it's a new sub class so needs clearing again. I don't see why they couldn't run, as they had the yaw dampers from new.

 

[Siemens Staines]

After 5 months out of service, 458423 is back in use again today

Realtime Trains | 2S05 0522 London Waterloo to Weybridge | 22/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 2S05 0522 departure from London Waterloo to Weybridge on 22/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[WarrenTManager]

I would imagine it's a paperwork issue, or it's a new sub class so needs clearing again. I don't see why they couldn't run, as they had the yaw dampers from new.

Although the 458/0 had yaw dampers, the 458/5 had a different coupling beam and gangway with more weight on the front eg the leading bogie under the cab has former motor axles (without gearboxes) because of the extra weight. Now take the five car and make it 458/4 and add yaw dampers and it's a different configuration again, plus any other changes to ride heights that there may be.

Why? When the fleet was specified it was based on a specific requirement for the Pompey direct, as 12-car formations. Presumably the intent was 8 x 12-car formations with four maintenance units on top. Taking an extra two units is no help - if you need four maintenance sets for 24 in traffic, then you can't run 27 in traffic from 30.

The waste would be to spend money on leasing and refurbishing trains that you don't have a use for... although you might say that applies to the entire 458/4 fleet now!

The 442s were going to be 8 pairs/2 spares for maintenance, so exactly as you say the 8 throuples to replace the 8 pairs and four in maintenance.

 

[47444]

Can I confirm which 458/4 have not yet re-entered service please?

I think it is 458402, 458403, 458404, 458407, 458417 and 458419 - is this correct?

TIA

 

[Siemens Staines]

I think it is 458402, 458403, 458404, 458407, 458417 and 458419 - is this correct?

458403 is in service, but 458414 has not yet re-entered service yet. I have the current 458 fleet status as

458/5 In service (5)
458529,530,533,535,536

458/5 Off-lease, out of miles (3)
458531 25.06.24 (Long Marston)
458532 02.09.24 (Wimbledon Park)
458534 25.05.24 (Long Marston)

458/4 Completed and delivered to SWR, but yet to enter service (6)
458402,404,407,414,417,419

458/4 In service (21)
458401,405,406,408-410,412,413,415,416,418,420-428

458/4 Out of service (1)
458411 17.12.24 (failed Waterloo prior to 2V51)

 

[47444]

458403 is in service, but 458414 has not yet re-entered service yet. I have the current 458 fleet status as

458/5 In service (5)
458529,530,533,535,536

458/5 Off-lease, out of miles (3)
458531 25.06.24 (Long Marston)
458532 02.09.24 (Wimbledon Park)
458534 25.05.24 (Long Marston)

458/4 Completed and delivered to SWR, but yet to enter service (6)
458402,404,407,414,417,419

458/4 In service (21)
458401,405,406,408-410,412,413,415,416,418,420-428

458/4 Out of service (1)
458411 17.12.24 (failed Waterloo prior to 2V51)

Thanks

 

[willontrains]

Hi all, thought I should just ask before I make a new post without any prior context, has the discussion about the lack of PDL and 12 car working come up in the thread before? Is it a topic worth discussing? I may have some valuable information!

 

[boiledbeans2]

Hi all, thought I should just ask before I make a new post without any prior context, has the discussion about the lack of PDL and 12 car working come up in the thread before? Is it a topic worth discussing? I may have some valuable information!

Please share! Pre-456 & 707 withdrawal, 12-car 450s on the PDL were very common. Now it's mostly 8-car.

 

[pompeyfan]

Hi all, thought I should just ask before I make a new post without any prior context, has the discussion about the lack of PDL and 12 car working come up in the thread before? Is it a topic worth discussing? I may have some valuable information!

Yes but you’d have to dig back a good few pages.

Essentially 12 car 458/4s are longer than 12 car 450s, and so I would imagine there is insufficient signal sighting at a number of terminus platforms.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Making its debut in passenger service today as a 458/4 is 458417, three years, 4 months and 7 days since it last worked a passenger train as 458517

Realtime Trains | 2S07 0552 London Waterloo to Weybridge | 30/01/2025

Real-time train running information for 2S07 0552 departure from London Waterloo to Weybridge on 30/01/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes but you’d have to dig back a good few pages.

Essentially 12 car 458/4s are longer than 12 car 450s, and so I would imagine there is insufficient signal sighting at a number of terminus platforms.

The end coaches on 458s are 21m rather than 20m. This would make a 12-car formation up to 6m longer than the equivalent 450 formation. A pretty fundamental thing to have missed, if that was the case.

 

[willontrains]

Essentially 12 car 458/4s are longer than 12 car 450s, and so I would imagine there is insufficient signal sighting at a number of terminus platforms.

This was indeed one of the first issues, however it was discussed for the international platforms at waterloo to be extended.

Interestingly the main reason 458/4s are only 8 or 4 car units is due to the power outage of the units. As /5s with an extra trailer car they had significant changes in performance. Early Last year a 458/4 12 car was indeed tested on the PDL but due to the sheer power pickup for the motors it actually tripped the electrics for the whole Havant Region.

 

[Goldfish62]

This was indeed one of the first issues, however it was discussed for the international platforms at waterloo to be extended.

The problem there is that the main lines cannot be accessed from P20-24. Even the Down Windsor Slow can't be accessed. So that wouldn't have worked.

Interestingly the main reason 458/4s are only 8 or 4 car units is due to the power outage of the units. As /5s with an extra trailer car they had significant changes in performance. Early Last year a 458/4 12 car was indeed tested on the PDL but due to the sheer power pickup for the motors it actually tripped the electrics for the whole Havant Region.

Sounds like a pretty conclusive show-stopper to me.

 

[SansHache]

This was indeed one of the first issues, however it was discussed for the international platforms at waterloo to be extended.

Interestingly the main reason 458/4s are only 8 or 4 car units is due to the power outage of the units. As /5s with an extra trailer car they had significant changes in performance. Early Last year a 458/4 12 car was indeed tested on the PDL but due to the sheer power pickup for the motors it actually tripped the electrics for the whole Havant Region.

The Traction control electronics for the Class 458/4 reverted to the original 4-car Class 458 current draw limits, as agreed with Network Rail's power supply engineers. The Class 458/4 type test programme in October/November 2023 demonstrated that the trains performed in accordance with this specification. Following initial testing in 8-car formation there were multiple test runs on the Portsmouth main line in 12-car formation.

I seem to recall one of the 12-car test runs being diverted onto an alternative route due to other incidents on the main line.

 

[Flange Squeal]

The problem there is that the main lines cannot be accessed from P20-24. Even the Down Windsor Slow can't be accessed. So that wouldn't have worked.

Unless they were planning to use the ladder at Queenstown Road which would facilitate this.

 

[Goldfish62]

Unless they were planning to use the ladder at Queenstown Road which would facilitate this.

Imagine the disruption that would cause! But then again it's crazy enough to be an SWR idea!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Imagine the disruption that would cause! But then again it's crazy enough to be an SWR idea!

I apologise to the Mods and others if I am seen to be veering OT, but am just following on from comments read:

For others Goldfish 62 is spot on. 12 car 458's are longer than any other EMU formation to have worked (yes they did on occasion for ECS moves) on the SW network. Such formations were restricted to three platforms at Waterloo, two of which were timetable wise associated with the Windsor lines (prior to the 2017 rebuild, which itself reduced another 12 car platform - number 8 - to 10 car status, but that's another story, now resolved before anyone shouts). But in essence platform 15 is the highest that has direct egress to the Down Main Fast, which is critical in the peaks, plat 16 and higher (of the old order) would have to run Down Windsor to West Crossings to gain access to the Down Main Fast. Perfectly legal in planning terms, but in the peaks (of old) a no-go, from planning side - too many trains on the UP Main Fast trying to access the station to allow any such (planned) outbound crossing moves in front of them.

As for the former International platforms (20-24), departing trains from same had/have no access to the Down Main Fast in the Waterloo area, the West Crossings is not an option, and so would have to run (via DWLs) to Queens Road to access the DMF. Queens Road crossings are a single lead crossing movement with a restriction (AFAIR) of 20 mph, the worst overall scenario, without any other get around route (at same location), and so any outbound Down Main Fast train routed via the DWLs from Waterloo, would put a stop to movements on the DMF (from Vauxhall direction), and UMF (from Clapham Junction) not to mention knock-on delays to Windsor Line trains, such as contra peak time ECS moves from Waterloo to Clapham Yard, which use the DWSL between Waterloo and Queens Road, which if diverted to the DWFL would impact Down Windsor side passenger services.

 

[willontrains]

The Traction control electronics for the Class 458/4 reverted to the original 4-car Class 458 current draw limits, as agreed with Network Rail's power supply engineers. The Class 458/4 type test programme in October/November 2023 demonstrated that the trains performed in accordance with this specification. Following initial testing in 8-car formation there were multiple test runs on the Portsmouth main line in 12-car formation.

These 12 car tests down the PDL were done at 3-4am; tripping the entire Havant area. Bare in mind no other trains are in the area.

These tests failed, and this is why they aren't used as 12 car sets on the PDL.

 

[Bessie]

Can we expect to see Class 458/4's on Reading services? I'm getting fed up with seeing Class 455's still being used

 

[willontrains]

Can we expect to see Class 458/4's on Reading services? I'm getting fed up with seeing Class 455's still being used

From what I'm told they are indeed looking to test them up that way soon.

 

[Goldfish62]

Can we expect to see Class 458/4's on Reading services? I'm getting fed up with seeing Class 455's still being used

I'm even more fed up with travelling on the things!

From what I'm told they are indeed looking to test them up that way soon.

Good!

 

[nctd2306]

Good!

Testing is one thing, actually getting approved to run (and then diagrams being put in) is another! I'll believe 458/4s going to Reading in passenger service if I see it happen with my own eyes!