SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Beemax]

Nah, the 350/2s, completely unrefurbished apart from third rail kit.... What the hell makes Petersfield, a complete non-entity of a place, so special anyway?

I used to commute from Petersfield around 5 years ago, as did the then Director General of Rail at DfT

 

[Wokingham]

Wibble

 

[py_megapixel]

Wibble

What, precisely, are you referring to?

 

[DanNCL]

But they obviously have been shown to members of the public!

Doesn’t necessarily mean it can be shared, for example if it was on a private Facebook group or on the paid section of WNXX.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Having asked permission, the person that showed me has said it’s fine to share. I did not initially share it in case it got them into trouble with bosses, and would like to add that contrary to what was implied - it is not against forum rules to describe something I saw without including the actual picture.



Description for those who may benefit from one: Image shows two seats intended for use aboard refurbished Class 458 stock. Standard class retain the same seats but reupholstered in SWR Cloth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seat on the right looks an excellent Standard Class seat.

First class it is not.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The seat on the right looks an excellent Standard Class seat.

First class it is not.

Agreed. You can tell by the curved shape at the top (although the seatback will give it away) it’s the same Juniper seat frame, only with what looks like slightly thinner cushions perhaps. I think it looks very comfortable compared to a 450 seat which is thinner and more upright, and has no armrests.

 

[Goldfish62]

Having asked permission, the person that showed me has said it’s fine to share. I did not initially share it in case it got them into trouble with bosses, and would like to add that contrary to what was implied - it is not against forum rules to describe something I saw without including the actual picture.

View attachment 124798

Description for those who may benefit from one: Image shows two seats intended for use aboard refurbished Class 458 stock. Standard class retain the same seats but reupholstered in SWR Cloth.

The shape of the seat cushioning on the standard class seat is quite different from the existing ones.

I like how the 1st Class seat has been done. Looks better IMHO than straight e-leather.

 

[py_megapixel]

The seat on the right looks an excellent Standard Class seat.
First class it is not.

To me it reminds me of the seats in some of Deutsche Bahn's PESA DMUs. Those looked quite comfortable, but I found them truly dreadful for actually sitting on - a rock hard base and a back perfectly designed to awkwardly dig into my shoulders. However, it is extremely unlikely to actually be the same design - especially if they are reusing frames - so I will reserve judgement until I have sat in one!

The Standard seat looks comparable to what's on Desiros currently, which I find fine.

I like how the 1st Class seat has been done. Looks better IMHO than straight e-leather.

I agree.

 

[pompeyfan]

Which forum rule is that?!

In the rules it states that a source must be referenced if possible, but I understand that not everyone is able to do it all of the time.

Going by what assumption?

You’ve said several times you’re a student and not employed by the railway. The fact you’ve seen the images implies that members of the public have seen the image.

 

[Goldfish62]

In the rules it states that a source must be referenced if possible, but I understand that not everyone is able to do it all of the time.

You've got me stumped because I can't find any rule which says that all sightings and observations must be accompanied by a photo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like how the 1st Class seat has been done. Looks better IMHO than straight e-leather.

I think it looks classy, but the seat itself is a Standard Class seat (crikey, WMT use it on a commuter train!) and so the First Class is an utter sham.

Also it's all flat cloth, and we all know how well that goes.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think it looks classy, but the seat itself is a Standard Class seat (crikey, WMT use it on a commuter train!) and so the First Class is an utter sham.

Also it's all flat cloth, and we all know how well that goes.

The problem is that the 1st Class area in the 458s is very constrained. If wider seats were to be used in a 1+2 configuration the doorway would be partially blocked. The current IC3000 seats only just fit. It's a very tight squeeze.

 

[superalbs]

Agreed. You can tell by the curved shape at the top (although the seatback will give it away) it’s the same Juniper seat frame, only with what looks like slightly thinner cushions perhaps. I think it looks very comfortable compared to a 450 seat which is thinner and more upright, and has no armrests.

It seems like a Fisa LEAN to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that the 1st Class area in the 458s is very constrained. If wider seats were to be used in a 1+2 configuration the doorway would be partially blocked. The current IC3000 seats only just fit. It's a very tight squeeze.

Move it then. Or if you can't offer a decent product, make them Standard only. Or even those seats in 2+1 with double armrests as Greater Anglia did.

It seems like a Fisa LEAN to me.

It is yes.

 

[DanNCL]

You’ve said several times you’re a student and not employed by the railway. The fact you’ve seen the images implies that members of the public have seen the image.

Not neccesarily. I'm not employed by the railway but regularly have access to stuff from parts of the rail industry (albeit not for SWR) through my work before it's made public.

Move it then. Or if you can't offer a decent product, make them Standard only. Or even those seats in 2+1 with double armrests as Greater Anglia did.

It could be worse, it could be what you get on a 387!

 

[superalbs]

The shape of the seat cushioning on the standard class seat is quite different from the existing ones.

I like how the 1st Class seat has been done. Looks better IMHO than straight e-leather.

I agree, First Class does look very classy (even if not really wildly comfortable).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You’ve said several times you’re a student and not employed by the railway. The fact you’ve seen the images implies that members of the public have seen the image.

I'm employed in multiple industries alongside being a student, but we'll leave that there.

I agree, First Class does look very classy (even if not really wildly comfortable).

Don't you think the colour of the inside fabric looks a bit garish? I would have thought black would have looked more classy.

 

[superalbs]

I'm employed in multiple industries alongside being a student, but we'll leave that there.

Don't you think the colour of the inside fabric looks a bit garish? I would have thought black would have looked more classy.

Not sure, I look forward to seeing it in context with the rest of the train.

 

[Goldfish62]

Move it then. Or if you can't offer a decent product, make them Standard only.

Personally I don't see the big deal. The Portsmouth Direct is a relatively short run and this is a better effort than eg Southern use on longer journeys.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Move it then. Or if you can't offer a decent product, make them Standard only. Or even those seats in 2+1 with double armrests as Greater Anglia did.

I do think it's more of an issue for the 444s, not just because they do the London Weymouths, but because the Grammar seats in those are larger than those used in Junipers (if that is what the seats above are - as @superalbs said, they do look rather like FISA Lean as well) and therefore the difference between First and Standard is even less. Even more so for yourself, as I think I remember you referring to the FISA Lean as a "not-as-good" version of the Grammars.

 

[jackot]

Don't you think the colour of the inside fabric looks a bit garish? I would have thought black would have looked more classy.

Thats my main observation, the colour of the fabric looks too bright when compared to the standard seat and the SWR colour pallet. Not necessarily black, but maybe a shade of blue similar to the standard moquette would look a bit better. It looks as if they have just gone into hobbycraft and got the first blue they could find.

As far as the standard seats, I’ve always found 458 seats really comfortable compared to the 2+3 Grammars in the 450s, and similar to a 444, so that’s nice. As far as using the FISA Lean in 2+2 for FC, I don’t really see the fuss if I’m honest. It’s better than the trains they are replacing (much better than the Compins in the 450 and the same as the 444s) and it’s not that long of a route.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Personally I don't see the big deal. The Portsmouth Direct is a relatively short run and this is a better effort than eg Southern use on longer journeys.

I think if this Class 458 project goes ahead, and I personally hope it does, it will be a nice upgrade from the 450s for customers, and other than door position there's not much to complain about compared to 444s. I also think the standard class seats look more comfortable than the Chapman variant on the 442s.

 

[physics34]

Thin seat base and no lumber support... same issues continue....

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Now of course, we no longer have 2tph fast (planned to be 442/458), 1tph stopper (planned to be Desiro) and 1tph Haslemere stopper (planned to be Desiro)

Instead, as of Dec 22 timetable, we have 1tph fast, 1tph fast to Haslemere then stopping and 1tph Haslemere stopper.

I'm assuming the 458s will do both Portsmouths, and then Desiros on the Haslemere service? That is, if the current timetable continues and does not revert to pre-COVID, and it seems SWR are reluctant to do that.

I've also had it suggested to me from a guard I know on Bournemouth Depot that PDL will not require all of the 458s in one day, and 4 carriage 458s (which fit at Bournemouth Plat. 1) are expected to be regularly seen on the Bournemouth New Forest stopping shuttles, which would make sense considering where they're based.

 

[adc82140]

Would make sense to send one down the Lymington branch as well, given the location, to free up a 450 for work nearer London.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Would make sense to send one down the Lymington branch as well, given the location, to free up a 450 for work nearer London.

Bit of a waste of a 2+2 unit with tables and armrests though, given there’ll only be 28. Northam Depot isn’t far from Brockenhurst either.

 

[D365]

Having asked permission, the person that showed me has said it’s fine to share. I did not initially share it in case it got them into trouble with bosses…

For future clarity it might be worth stating that in your initial post. It wasn’t clear that the matter of seating might be something confidential

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

For future clarity it might be worth stating that in your initial post. It wasn’t clear that the matter of seating might be something confidential

I didn’t think it would be, but I’m not comfortable with the idea of the person sharing it getting into trouble. Furthermore, who’s to say someone didn’t show me something off their phone or something, or an expiring photo like on IG/SC? I’m not going to deliberately withhold it, am I?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even more so for yourself, as I think I remember you referring to the FISA Lean as a "not-as-good" version of the Grammars.

Yes, the LEAN is basically an almost-but-not-quite-as-good near clone of the Grammer E3000 as used on most Desiros. Mostly not quite as good because the thick back means less legroom, but the shape is also to me slightly less comfortable, though that of course is subjective. Fine for a run to Shrewsbury, though, and thus probably fine for a run to Pompey - but not suitable for First Class on a train making a nearly-5-hour journey e.g. the Waterloo to Weymouth.

The idea of using slightly-nicer-looking versions of the Standard seats (or even just the same ones, yes, you, Southern!) is a well-known South East approach to 1st - but the thing is, 1st just being an expensive seat reservation for well-to-do commuters isn't so much a thing any more (hence why Southeastern are getting rid), and on LNR at least you don't even get a quieter environment because there's almost no enforcement, so anyone just sits there - often you're more likely to have issues with ASB in 1st than Standard!

So to me, it makes sense to do one of two things:
1. Make 1st really good, which means 2+1 *and* the niceties like leather, tons of legroom, curtains, lamps etc. (Plugs, much as I don't use them, are a standard expectation now), then you can make some money upselling.
2. Get rid.

I've come across only one 2+2 1st I thought worth the name, on the refurbished Domino units on SBB, because instead of doing 2+1 they did effectively infinite legroom - airline seats with about 1.2m pitch (about 80cm is more the norm) and fixed tables. But I'm pretty sure SWR aren't doing that!