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The saga of 10 car trains on the SW suburban network goes back further, to the 32 450/2s which were ordered and subsequently cancelled. These were to be 5-car standard only
Now you mention that, it is ringing bells. But as the whole thing was binned long before planners (at my pay grade) became involved, it's not something I readily remember now.
Such deadlines in bid terms were notoriously tight, and some plans (unit diagrams for an entire proposed new fleet type, no matter how many units) and associated other costs (crews etc) had to be worked up in a matter of a couple of days in some cases. The 707's were a case in point, with plans for a fleet of three different sizes (unit totals) having to be worked out, costed etc etc for the DfT, and in the end the plan with least units (30) was elected. The other totals, IIRC, were for 36 and 40 units. For some involved, those sort deadlines for such mentally intense work, can prove not so good in the longer term, but I won't go there (OT somewhat).
"Subsequently, SWT received a further 17 four-car sets, bringing the total number of Class 450 units up to 127. These trains were delivered in 2006, not long after the last of the first order was delivered. 450101 was damaged in Belgium and returned to Wildenrath to have repairs conducted by Siemens, delaying its entry into the UK."
Now you mention that, it is ringing bells. But as the whole thing was binned long before planners (at my pay grade) became involved, it's not something I readily remember now.
I'll stand corrected but I had it in mind this was an additional 17 x 450, to bolster the original order of 110? I may be mistaken?
Two separate increases to 4 car numbers - the original plan was 100 x 4 car and 32 x 5 car - total 132 units.
Then that became the original 100 x 4 car and 10 x 4 cars that came from splitting the 5 car order as mentioned, so a total of 110. Then a short bit later there were 17 more 4 car delivered, giving a total of 127 in total.
That last order was not really publicised much, they just seemed to suddenly arrive. Maybe no one wanted to highlight they’d got the numbers wrong earlier…
Now you mention that, it is ringing bells. But as the whole thing was binned long before planners (at my pay grade) became involved, it's not something I readily remember now.
I'll stand corrected but I had it in mind this was an additional 17 x 450, to bolster the original order of 110? I may be mistaken?
No, the original SWT Desiro order was:
100 x 4-car 450
32 x 5-car 450
45 x 5-car 444
The 32 x 5-car 450 order (160 vehicles) was modified into 10 x 4-car 450 (450101-110) and 30 x Class 350 (350101-130); the same total of 160 vehicles. The final 17 4-car 450s (450111-127) were ordered later.
No, the original SWT Desiro order was:
100 x 4-car 450
32 x 5-car 450
45 x 5-car 444
The 32 x 5-car 450 order (160 vehicles) was modified into 10 x 4-car 450 (450101-110) and 30 x Class 350 (350101-130); the same total of 160 vehicles. The final 17 4-car 450s (450111-127) were ordered later.
That last order was not really publicised much, they just seemed to suddenly arrive. Maybe no one wanted to highlight they’d got the numbers wrong earlier…
The last 17 were effectively 458 replacement, but obviously ended up bolstering the fleet enough to allow 458s to form the 458 > 450 > 444 > 442 cascade that saw the 442s discarded.
Real-time train running information for 2P71 2145 departure from London Waterloo to Haslemere on 12/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
Real-time train running information for 2P71 2145 departure from London Waterloo to Haslemere on 12/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
I looks like quite a few 458s stable overnight at Farnham now - five units perhaps on the basis that five started from there this morning. I know it was common to stable Reading sets there prior to Feltham Depot opening, but after it opened, 458s to Farnham became rare.
The re-tractioning of the 455s to AC traction was solely financed by Porterbrook as a method of extending their life on SWT. First then took over the SWR franchise and ordered total fleet replacement for the Metro routes making the £70M investment a waste of time and money.
Enabled 707s. To get the 707s otherwise a new depot would have had to be built. Feltham cost £60 million and has no shed facilities.
Increased maintenance intervals to 20,000 miles from 10,000.
Reduced material usage on maintenance eg brake pads, camshaft tips, brushes.
Regenerative braking.
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The doors are probably swapped out when they need repair, once repaired they'll become the spares so won't necessarily return to the unit they started in.
A few units spent a long time out of use during covid, so they'd be prime candidates for giving up any components that were in short supply.
There was a door overhaul a couple of years ago at Fratton, I imagine it was changed then. In the main plug doors go back where they came from or you often get a world of pain. Folklore in the Engineering building tells us this on many fleets. An early 2000s overhaul of a 442 where someone forgot to label where each door had come from meant a very lengthy game of trial and error making the damn unit get interlock again. At Widnes, they are not taking the doors off the 458s unless absolutely necessary.
I looks like quite a few 458s stable overnight at Farnham now - five units perhaps on the basis that five started from there this morning. I know it was common to stable Reading sets there prior to Feltham Depot opening, but after it opened, 458s to Farnham became rare.
I only comment in a historical (458/0) sense, but FN needed 3 x 8-458 each night to work the next days 1Nxx services to WA via Ascot. The nature of the timetable at the time, in particular during the transition period of conversion to 5-458 etc, made this balancing move very difficult. It was with some reluctance, that the 2153 Waterloo to Alton was for a time diagrammed as 8-458, which then bounced back to Woking and down to FN to finish. It would be a very poor planner who diagrammed an additional empty working (costing a driver) to make that balance work, without looking at viable alternatives. The associated small imbalance of (450's) was far easier to work in to the plan, without having to cost anything.
PS: Another long standing unofficial rule amongst some of us SWD planners from the 70's: never run an additional empty train (potentially costing a crew/driver) if the passenger train (stock) diagrams could be manipulated to make the required balance work. This mostly applied to engineering work scenarios, to correctly position stock for a Monday morning start, but was equally a very sound, if unofficial mind set to be in, when planning the base plan.
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Enabled 707s. To get the 707s otherwise a new depot would have had to be built. Feltham cost £60 million and has no shed facilities.
Increased maintenance intervals to 20,000 miles from 10,000.
Thank you indeed. I didn't want to get in to a heated discussion with some on the subject! I am impressed about the 20k though, as in our original spec it was only intended as a long standing 10k to a new 15k increase, which was a hell of an improvement at that time, even with the additional facilities on 7 road, EF end.
I looks like quite a few 458s stable overnight at Farnham now - five units perhaps on the basis that five started from there this morning. I know it was common to stable Reading sets there prior to Feltham Depot opening, but after it opened, 458s to Farnham became rare.
Yes, I'm not quite sure what that was all about. They seemed to vanish from Readings all apart from a single return or two at peaks, and now they've largely returned again.
Yes, I'm not quite sure what that was all about. They seemed to vanish from Readings all apart from a single return or two at peaks, and now they've largely returned again.
Really rather ironic that we're seeing booked workings of 458s on the Portsmouth Direct Line completely unrelated to the planned conversion and takeover of the route, and even more so now that the project is looking likely to become a white elephant.
458's work a lot better on the reading's than the 450's. I believe that drivers feel more confident driving a 458 down that way. Whenever I work a 458 as a guard we seem to lose less time than if it was a 450
458's work a lot better on the reading's than the 450's. I believe that drivers feel more confident driving a 458 down that way. Whenever I work a 458 as a guard we seem to lose less time than if it was a 450
Door cycle time is the biggest issue with the 450s: they are significantly slower to open/close doors than a 458. The sectional running times are more compatible with the 458s.
458's work a lot better on the reading's than the 450's. I believe that drivers feel more confident driving a 458 down that way. Whenever I work a 458 as a guard we seem to lose less time than if it was a 450
Yet I was only speaking to a guard I know the other day who hates them on the Readings, among other reasons being because he can't get around to do revenue checks properly due to the shortage of local guards panels.
458's work a lot better on the reading's than the 450's. I believe that drivers feel more confident driving a 458 down that way. Whenever I work a 458 as a guard we seem to lose less time than if it was a 450
The door cycle is especially slow compared to 450s if working from a passenger door. From the 458s, when doors are closed you slam the cab door shut and you're away.
Yet I was only speaking to a guard I know the other day who hates them on the Readings, among other reasons being because he can't get around to do revenue checks properly due to the shortage of local guards panels.
The door cycle is especially slow compared to 450s if working from a passenger door. From the 458s, when doors are closed you slam the cab door shut and you're away.
Do we actually know if a statement will be released officially confirming the conversion project being paused? All the managers I've spoken to are saying it's still going ahead.
Really rather ironic that we're seeing booked workings of 458s on the Portsmouth Direct Line completely unrelated to the planned conversion and takeover of the route, and even more so now that the project is looking likely to become a white elephant.
When I used to sign that way I remember it definitely was a challenge to keep time on Weybridge Bays and Rounders with 450s but as you say a decent driver and switched on guard and it was doable.
450s on Readings and Windsors were a bit better, always preferred working 455s on the Windsor side.
If it is decided to abandon the 458 PDL conversion also retaining these then it may make sense to put most of the 458s on the Reading services and take out those 450s and convert to 2+2 for Portsmouth services?
If it is decided to abandon the 458 PDL conversion also retaining these then it may make sense to put most of the 458s on the Reading services and take out those 450s and convert to 2+2 for Portsmouth services?
That costs money. The decision to pause the 458 conversion is because of budget restrictions.
The Reading line will be cl701s allowing conversion of the route to DCO.
The 450s have only recently had a refresh, they won’t be getting another one to change the configuration on the Portsmouth Direct. Many of the Portsmouth Direct fast services are 444s anyway.
Sorry if this has been covered already. I saw innumerable 458s running today and every single one of them showed 'London Waterloo' as the destination, notwithstanding where they were actually going (many were to Windsor). Are they incapable of showing anything else?! I also saw at least two 455 formations on the Reading run when I would have thought 458s or 450s would have been preferable, given that the reduced timetable presumably means a lot of spare stock today.
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