SWR Class 458 to be retained

[fgwrich]

I remember it happening just as much when they were 4 car. Gives the impression of brakes binding.

From memory their Scottish cousins seem to do it as well, so it must be a Juniper thing (as well as leaking windows and ceilings it seems).

 

[Goldfish62]

From memory their Scottish cousins seem to do it as well, so it must be a Juniper thing (as well as leaking windows and ceilings it seems).

Yes, the Junipers were very poorly built trains.

 

[deepeetw]

Yes, the Junipers were very poorly built trains.

Not Washwood Heath’s finest product.

There were all sorts of stories from their construction about random electrical issues (having the wipers on causing the brakes to misbehave was one I seem to recall!).

That said, they’re still going, so either they are super cheap or they must have some other redeeming quality (the traction package / brake combination?)

 

[DorkingMain]

Not Washwood Heath’s finest product.

There were all sorts of stories from their construction about random electrical issues (having the wipers on causing the brakes to misbehave was one I seem to recall!).

That said, they’re still going, so either they are super cheap or they must have some other redeeming quality (the traction package / brake combination?)

They're cheap, they're cleared for the SWR network, they have ASDO and there's nothing better available.

 

[D365]

They're cheap, they're cleared for the SWR network, they have ASDO and there's nothing better available.

And they're pretty reliable once the relevant depot gets to grips with them?

 

[fgwrich]

They're cheap, they're cleared for the SWR network, they have ASDO and there's nothing better available.

Made cheaper with no potential further operator. It was either offer a rock bottom price or send them to Newport and write them off the books. I'm not surprised the former has suddenly become attractive. However, I reckon there are further factors at play here too, as the DfT will have had to have kept Porterbrook sweet somehow - i.e, the DfT playing politics with the leasing co's.

 

[Snow1964]

Made cheaper with no potential further operator. It was either offer a rock bottom price or send them to Newport and write them off the books. I'm not surprised the former has suddenly become attractive. However, I reckon there are further factors at play here too, as the DfT will have had to have kept Porterbrook sweet somehow - i.e, the DfT playing politics with the leasing co's.

Sorry to be naive, but why do the DfT have to keep Porterbrook sweet in 2020s. I could understand it in early years of leaseco, but surely which product to back nowadays is their own commercial risk.

 

[Wolfie]

Sorry to be naive, but why do the DfT have to keep Porterbrook sweet in 2020s. I could understand it in early years of leaseco, but surely which product to back nowadays is their own commercial risk.

You scratch my back.... Let's wait and see what Porterbrook-owned fleet goes back early....

 

[fgwrich]

You scratch my back.... Let's wait and see what Porterbrook-owned fleet goes back early....

Indeed, Porterbrook can feel pretty aggrieved over the very recent EMR HST fleet fiasco, which saw their better condition Mk3s replaced by the ex EC fleet from Angel in worse condition, at the behest of the DfT who saw them as more compliant. That’ll be one of a few decisions of late where the DfT have called the shots, and peed off the leasing co’s in the process. In this case, you’ve got a fleet owned by Angel (442s) being replaced by a fleet from Porterbrook (458s) with no future home.

 

[Tynwald]

Not Washwood Heath’s finest product.

There were all sorts of stories from their construction about random electrical issues (having the wipers on causing the brakes to misbehave was one I seem to recall!).

That said, they’re still going, so either they are super cheap or they must have some other redeeming quality (the traction package / brake combination?)

The traction package is good. It is the Alstom Onyx kit as fitted to pendolino's, LU Northern line and others. Most of the other kit is pretty good also. What is not good is the Washwood Heath assembly quality, which is as about as bad as it gets. The other Juniper/Coradia fleets suffered the same issues.

 

[Bigfoot]

The traction package is good. It is the Alstom Onyx kit as fitted to pendolino's, LU Northern line and others. Most of the other kit is pretty good also. What is not good is the Washwood Heath assembly quality, which is as about as bad as it gets. The other Juniper/Coradia fleets suffered the same issues.

Once fettled with by Wimbledon after being abused in the 5 car conversion below the solebar is superb, brakes, traction all great. Above the solebar is put together well how else to put it other than absolutely terribly.

 

[Mikey C]

The traction package is good. It is the Alstom Onyx kit as fitted to pendolino's, LU Northern line and others. Most of the other kit is pretty good also. What is not good is the Washwood Heath assembly quality, which is as about as bad as it gets. The other Juniper/Coradia fleets suffered the same issues.

I'd have felt annoyed if I had worked in the traction department of Alstom around this time, as that business in the UK was basically brought down by the shoddiness of what came out of Washwood Heath

A sad ending considering how EE/GEC traction motors dominated the UK market until the 1990s

 

[swt_passenger]

Once fettled with by Wimbledon after being abused in the 5 car conversion below the solebar is superb, brakes, traction all great. Above the solebar is put together well how else to put it other than absolutely terribly.

An Alstom PR would probably selectively quote that as “Above the solebar is put together well...”

 

[Goldfish62]

Once fettled with by Wimbledon after being abused in the 5 car conversion below the solebar is superb, brakes, traction all great. Above the solebar is put together well how else to put it other than absolutely terribly.

When they were new there were ceiling and other panels hanging off and mastic had to used to seal loose panelling to stop rattling and vibration. Absolutely appalling build quality!

Part of the reason for buying the 458s was as a sanction due to SWT's poor performance in the early days so it seems they bought the cheapest units possible, which happened to come with Tesco Value design and build quality. They clearly learned from that and got it right with the Desiro order.

 

[4REP]

When they were new there were ceiling and other panels hanging off and mastic had to used to seal loose panelling to stop rattling and vibration. Absolutely appalling build quality!

Part of the reason for buying the 458s was as a sanction due to SWT's poor performance in the early days so it seems they bought the cheapest units possible, which happened to come with Tesco Value design and build quality. They clearly learned from that and got it right with the Desiro order.

If the were a huge order of 458 stock to replace the slam door Stock on SWT, today would have looked very different. Also there would have possibly been a class 459 for an express version.

 

[WarrenTManager]

The traction package is good. It is the Alstom Onyx kit as fitted to pendolino's, LU Northern line and others. Most of the other kit is pretty good also. What is not good is the Washwood Heath assembly quality, which is as about as bad as it gets. The other Juniper/Coradia fleets suffered the same issues.

The rumour always was that a powerful man with a beard demanded the best assemblers for his trains being built at the same time. The remaining employees assembled the Coradias and Junipers.

 

[Goldfish62]

If the were a huge order of 458 stock to replace the slam door Stock on SWT, today would have looked very different. Also there would have possibly been a class 459 for an express version.

Alstom proposed "Juniper 2" to try to put things right and tempt SWT with their slam door replacement order. It was all in vain.

 

[Tynwald]

The coradia variant had some strong potential orders: Scotrail, Midland main line, Chiltern amongst them. All went dead when they saw what came out of Washwood Heath.

 

[Speed43125]

The rumour always was that a powerful man with a beard demanded the best assemblers for his trains being built at the same time. The remaining employees assembled the Coradias and Junipers.

How very interesting, sounds almost plausible really given pendos have always been okay beyond the teething troubles in the very early days.

 

[43096]

How very interesting, sounds almost plausible really given pendos have always been okay beyond the teething troubles in the very early days.

Pendolino build quality isn’t great. Plenty of rattling and badly fitting panels from new.

 

[fgwrich]

When they were new there were ceiling and other panels hanging off and mastic had to used to seal loose panelling to stop rattling and vibration. Absolutely appalling build quality!

Even as recent as Summer 2019 I was still finding units with lose ceiling panels, so nothing ever changes with those it seems.

I really do wonder just how bad the build quality was, for them to still be leaking like a sieve 20 years after their construction.

The picture on the left is from a 334, providing me with a free water supply last summer, while the two on the right was a steady drip from underneath the Pan Well at Reading in summer 2019.

 

[Pete_uk]

Poor build quality was never very good even back in the day, didn't the class 60s have an average of 100 warranty problems each and the 158s kept being sent back to get fixed?

Let's hope the once over is a good one for these units and sorts some of the frankly not acceptable problems

 

[43096]

The traction package is good. It is the Alstom Onyx kit as fitted to pendolino's, LU Northern line and others. Most of the other kit is pretty good also. What is not good is the Washwood Heath assembly quality, which is as about as bad as it gets. The other Juniper/Coradia fleets suffered the same issues.

Onix, not Onyx (those are/were bin lorries!). A fair summary of them, really. The other problem was Almost’s lack of support for them in the crucial post introduction period.

Alstom proposed "Juniper 2" to try to put things right and tempt SWT with their slam door replacement order. It was all in vain.

Which shows Alstom didn’t get the problem, which wasn’t the train as such but Alstom itself and lack of customer support. SWT must have been really, really hacked off either to go from a train that had the necessary safety authorisations and was in service, to a company that had never built a train for UK third rail lines. More fool Alstom, because it cost them what became the 444 and 450 fleets and consequently the entire 350 build, too. They still haven’t won a competitive tender for new UK main line trains since GEC-Alsthom became Alstom.

 

[fgwrich]

Onix, not Onyx (those are/were bin lorries!). A fair summary of them, really. The other problem was Almost’s lack of support for them in the crucial post introduction period.


Which shows Alstom didn’t get the problem, which wasn’t the train as such but Alstom itself and lack of customer support. SWT must have been really, really hacked off to go from a train that had the necessary safety authorisations and was in service, to a company that had never built a train for UK third rail lines.

I'd forgotten about that nickname for a while. A deserved nickname (and anagram) of Alstom's customer service at the time. Onyx as you say rather sums up their build quality of the time.

I think it shows how keen Siemens must have been for the South West Trains order to have shipped 4VEP 423810 out to Wildenrath and hammer it around their test track for many months. I cant imagine Almost of the time using such initiative, that's for sure.

 

[antharro]

I commuted on the 458s for a brief time when they were on the Reading. I remember thinking they sounded odd when pulling away from standing, kinda like constant wheel slip or they couldn't get the power down correctly. I also remember the toilets seeming to be constantly out of order - often all toilets in an 8 carriage train - and leaking windows. I was never hugely impressed, but I did enjoy their ride quality when they got the chance to get up to speed. I was on the 458 tour that went to Poole and that was quite a good run.

I think it shows how keen Siemens must have been for the South West Trains order to have shipped 4VEP 423810 out to Wildenrath and hammer it around their test track for many months.

What happened to 423810? Was it scrapped in Germany or returned to the UK?

 

[superalbs]

What happened to 423810? Was it scrapped in Germany or returned to the UK?

This page says that it returned to service!

3810 (4 VEP) leaving London Waterloo for Alton

South West Trains' 4 VEP unit 3810 achieved notoriety between 2002 and early 2003 when it was sent over to Germany for testing at the Siemens testing facility in Wildenrath. The testing was carried out on unit 3810 in order to assess and aid in the electrical and mechanical testing of South West...

www.flickr.com

3810 (4 VEP) leaving London Waterloo for Alton​

South West Trains' 4 VEP unit 3810 achieved notoriety between 2002 and early 2003 when it was sent over to Germany for testing at the Siemens testing facility in Wildenrath. The testing was carried out on unit 3810 in order to assess and aid in the electrical and mechanical testing of South West Trains' then new fleet of class 444 and 450 Desiro EMUs which were in the course of being built at the Siemens plant in Wildenrath as the class 444s and class 450s would end up replacing the faithful slam-door class 421 (4 CIG) and class 423 (4 VEP) EMUs on the South West Trains semi-fast and express services out of London Waterloo between 2004 and 2005. Here 3810 was fortuitously caught by my camera leaving London Waterloo at the rear of a 12-car South West Trains service to Alton still painted in its Network SouthEast livery in April 2003 shortly after its safe return back to the UK from its visit to Germany.

 

[Journeyman]

The rumour always was that a powerful man with a beard demanded the best assemblers for his trains being built at the same time. The remaining employees assembled the Coradias and Junipers.

The 458s were built a good few years before the Pendolinos.

 

[Mikey C]

The 1995 tube stock are excellent trains but from when they first entered service, I wasn't impressed with the quality of some of the interior panels

They were all in place, but seemed a bit bodged in

 

[Energy]

The other problem was Almost’s lack of support for them in the crucial post introduction period.

It also cost them the HST conversion, the Paxman engine was better but Alstom didn't support the few which got converted so MTU got the order.

SWT must have been really, really hacked off either to go from a train that had the necessary safety authorisations and was in service, to a company that had never built a train for UK third rail lines

I think Angel (who own all desiros bar 185s, 700s, 717s and 350/2s) may ordered a couple trial units (subsiquently became 360/2s).

They still haven’t won a competitive tender for new UK main line trains since GEC-Alsthom became Alstom.

They don't have anything unique about them, their current offerings were a standard EMU while other entrants have the only diesel options and Stadler has the low floor bonus which has made it preferable for Merseyrail and T&W. There wasn't a reason to go for them over a more established UK manufacturer. They had a unique product for Thameslink but Thameslink wanted a standard light weight high acceleration EMU, not something unique.

I think it shows how keen Siemens must have been for the South West Trains order to have shipped 4VEP 423810 out to Wildenrath and hammer it around their test track for many months. I cant imagine Almost of the time using such initiative, that's for sure.

Siemens' care for attention has gotten them a position in the market, I'm sure it costed them upfront but in the long term it will have definetley been worth it. Alstom at the time only thought about short term...

The rumour always was that a powerful man with a beard demanded the best assemblers for his trains being built at the same time. The remaining employees assembled the Coradias and Junipers.

The Pendolinos were built later. Virgin also had a lot more care and involvement in their trains than others. I believe they own the outside cab design of the voyager.

 

[D365]

Onix, not Onyx (those are/were bin lorries!). A fair summary of them, really. The other problem was Almost’s lack of support for them in the crucial post introduction period.

Ah, so it is Onix (as in the Pokémon).