SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

[Goldfish62]

Do you have to be in a union if you work on the railway?

The closed shop was outlawed getting on for 40 years ago.

 

[Emmsie]

...and also reduces the number of cleaners that the TOC employ or hire from an agency, especially cleaners whose main role is on train during the day when in service.

We are actually supposed to clean the tables of debris and on a train out of Victoria at midnight the Burger King and Wasabi packaging is not going to fit in the tiny bins by the doors. It also has the benefit of engaging with passengers, some who may be drunk in a positive manner, but if you want to justify laziness and slovenliness go right ahead. Cleaning the debris gives the cleaners time to do a better job of the toilets.

 

[Tom Quinne]

What happens if your cleaning rubbish up using your own equipment and injury yourself, or god forbid prick yourself with a needle ?

You can bet your job it’ll be your fault, you can also bet you’ll be MFA’d for your trouble to.

When you’ve spent so long hearing hollow words from management you become highly cynical, and stick to the core duties of your role.

 

[Bromley boy]

We are actually supposed to clean the tables of debris and on a train out of Victoria at midnight the Burger King and Wasabi packaging is not going to fit in the tiny bins by the doors. It also has the benefit of engaging with passengers, some who may be drunk in a positive manner, but if you want to justify laziness and slovenliness go right ahead. Cleaning the debris gives the cleaners time to do a better job of the toilets.

It’s hardly justifying slovenliness is it.

It’s saying that by doing that you were playing into the TOC’s hands. The TOC should be providing sufficient cleaners to keep the trains in a decent state. The fact that they don’t do this speaks volumes about their own attitude to customers (keep in mind if the TOC had its way there would be no on board staff at all).

By taking it upon yourself to do someone else’s job for them you’re essentially covering the failure of the TOC up and benefiting nobody in the long run.

 

[greyman42]

Do you not reckon it's true? I've been a guard for a while now.

The amount of times I've handed over trains to a grin with 'don't worry about it mate, I'm not going down it anyway' or heard disparaging comments in the mess room about people who do try hard making others look bad is somewhat depressing.

It is a fact that being seen to try too hard on the railway is 'uncool'. I've known drivers shout at guards (and vice versa) for agreeing to do overtime to avoid a cancellation for not getting them out of their job and so on.

Unless you're really, really good and have the personality to hold your own sticking your head above the parapet can be intimidating and God forbid you appear on a '.... of the month' or similar board.

You're quite entitled to disagree of course but I'm a committed union man as well as a committed employee and I still find it depressing at times.

Are these ".... of the month" boards on open display in mess rooms?

 

[Bromley boy]

I rarely notice any former guards or ticket office staff working outside the rail industry.

How unusual. Do you ask everyone you encounter what their previous job role was? If not, with respect, how could you possibly know how many former guards or ticket office staff you meet in other walks of life?

Is this known as ARS(e) covering?

Very good.

 

[Robertj21a]

We are actually supposed to clean the tables of debris and on a train out of Victoria at midnight the Burger King and Wasabi packaging is not going to fit in the tiny bins by the doors. It also has the benefit of engaging with passengers, some who may be drunk in a positive manner, but if you want to justify laziness and slovenliness go right ahead. Cleaning the debris gives the cleaners time to do a better job of the toilets.

Well done. Great to see that some staff still get pride in providing a good quality of service for the travelling public. There can't be cleaners available everywhere 24/7.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well done. Great to see that some staff still get pride in providing a good quality of service for the travelling public. There can't be cleaners available everywhere 24/7.

Cleaners are available 24/7, if the TOC is willing to pay.

I wonder how often you clean your office.

 

[theironroad]

Anyone has the right to join any union regardless of whether or not it is recognised, and to be afforded representation from that union for personal cases.

The ATCU representative can represent someone in a personal case , just as any non union official can (except during a strict fact finding interview) if asked to by the person under investigation.

However, at least in swr , the atcu are not recognised for any collective bargaining which covers pay and negotiation of terms and conditions. If over 50% of the grade were in the atcu then swr would have to recognise atcu, but they have far less than 50% and at some depots probably 0%. Swr could voulntarily recognise atcu but they choose not to.

 

[pemma]

How unusual. Do you ask everyone you encounter what their previous job role was? If not, with respect, how could you possibly know how many former guards or ticket office staff you meet in other walks of life?

I'd easily recognise a couple of hundred customer facing rail staff if I were to see them working in a non-rail role. I notice it happening with other industries like security staff, bus drivers, shop staff etc. Yet rail staff seem to stay in their rail roles for a very long time - one who retired after working at my local station a few years back had been working for the railways since before I was born, the station he had previously worked at lost it's ticket office in around 1990 when the station became a Metrolink stop. Post Office staff never last that long!

 

[Carlisle]

A company based near me has one of those 'Best Places To Work' awards and gets positive mentions in both national and local press but it is very obvious that in reality that is not the case.
!

Ive noticed Aldi and Wetherspoon are 2 that regularly promote having those type of awards, but the latter anyway seems to have quite a conseriderable staff turnover in the establiments I visit.

 

[Robertj21a]

Cleaners are available 24/7, if the TOC is willing to pay.

I wonder how often you clean your office.

What a very strange question. How often do you clean your kitchen ?

 

[3141]

I'm a passenger. I'd like the trains to be operating when I want to travel on them. I can see there are some circumstances when it's very desirable to have more than one member of staff on board. I also know that large numbers of trains operate everyday with only a driver, and no-one has so far produced hard evidence that that form of operation is less safe. I understand
that railway staff may have strong feelings about these issues because any increase in DOO may threaten their jobs.

But when I read posters seeking to discourage a guard from cleaning up some of the mess left by passengers for reasons such as it's the TOC's job to provide more cleaners, or you could be reducing the opportunities for cleaning agency staff to be employed, or you might prick yourself on a needle [does that mean it's OK if it happens to agency staff?] then I think some people don't understand how counter-productive their attitudes could be. Rather like the RMT.

 

[theironroad]

I'm a passenger. I'd like the trains to be operating when I want to travel on them. I can see there are some circumstances when it's very desirable to have more than one member of staff on board. I also know that large numbers of trains operate everyday with only a driver, and no-one has so far produced hard evidence that that form of operation is less safe. I understand
that railway staff may have strong feelings about these issues because any increase in DOO may threaten their jobs.

But when I read posters seeking to discourage a guard from cleaning up some of the mess left by passengers for reasons such as it's the TOC's job to provide more cleaners, or you could be reducing the opportunities for cleaning agency staff to be employed, or you might prick yourself on a needle [does that mean it's OK if it happens to agency staff?] then I think some people don't understand how counter-productive their attitudes could be. Rather like the RMT.

Firstly, I see no problem with wanting to maintain and create new jobs and if that means having more on train cleaners then that is good. This desire to eliminate jobs across the railway and the wider economy in pursuit of profit is dispiriting.

On train cleaners , whether fully employed or agency should receive full training and, as importantly equipment , to deal with the variety of rubbish on trains and that does include needles discarded in an unsafe manner. Guards have often (maybe not always) encouraged by managers to collect rubbish and been given no training or equipment to carry out the task safely.

If you call that counter productive then that's your call.

 

[Carlisle]

Guards have often (maybe not always) encouraged by managers to collect rubbish and been given no training or equipment to carry out the task safely.

If you call that counter productive then that's your call.

Aren’t some of you confusing the scenario of a guard given the right circumstances, opting to assist in picking up fairly easily identifiable litter from tabletops and possibly seats/aisles, ,(obviously requires bag+gloves) as distinct from toilets/ mopping/ hoovering floors etc which clearly require more equipment and training and I’ll likley be done at the terminating stations anyway

 

[sirjojo]

It’s hardly justifying slovenliness is it.

It’s saying that by doing that you were playing into the TOC’s hands. The TOC should be providing sufficient cleaners to keep the trains in a decent state. The fact that they don’t do this speaks volumes about their own attitude to customers (keep in mind if the TOC had its way there would be no on board staff at all).

By taking it upon yourself to do someone else’s job for them you’re essentially covering the failure of the TOC up and benefiting nobody in the long run.

are you suggesting they should have a cleaner on board every train then? it could only happen on the railway someone is criticised for taking pride in their job. she is clearly doing it for the benefit of her customers, and pride in doing a good job not to save her employers money. it is a frankly bizarre attitude adopted by a lot of railway dinosaurs, who have had it so easy for so long yet still moan like hell. you have had a good run, be grateful for that and try and look on the positive side of things, there is no immediate threat to your job. nobody in any job has a guarantee their job will be there in 3,5,7 years why do guards think they are so special they should be given that assurance? SWR have said they will roster a guard for the next 7 years, so you will all have a job until at least then, what more do you want?

 

[rwuk]

I commute into London with SWR and want to say *thank you* to any of the guards who clean up after my slovenly peers. I habitually pick up any rubbish that's been left lying around and bin it as I get off the train and I'm appreciative of the fact that you do so as well, which makes my journey more pleasant.

It may, or may not (I've lost track of what's been said in this thread) actually be part of your duties, but please know it is appreciated

 

[bb21]

Nah. I don't know about elsewhere but our 'Conductors Restructuring Initiative' document has always had basic tidying of tables and seats in it going back at least 20 years.

We don't have the kit to wipe tables down and clear up spillages and absolutely definitely don't have the kit to service the toilets and cleaning under and down the side of seats is also excluded.

We've actually had an increase in on train cleaners not a reduction.

I can't stand a filthy train, it's embarrassing to just walk past piles of junk as if it's not there.

I fully agree.

I always pick up litter on our trains where it is simple and feasible to do so, and dispose of them properly. It is no big effort. A dirty/untidy train makes the company and me, as company representative, look bad. Some passengers are absolutely disgusting, but there is no need to stoop to their levels. Nobody wins from a dirty train.

Similarly I will tell people to take their dirty shoes off the seats on our trains. Anyone who refuses gets to find out about the consequences very very quickly.

Sometimes it's the little things that make a big difference.

 

[Malcolmffc]

are you suggesting they should have a cleaner on board every train then?

Don’t give the RMT ideas....they’d find a reason to claim the cleaner was “safety critical”

 

[Robertj21a]

I fully agree.

I always pick up litter on our trains where it is simple and feasible to do so, and dispose of them properly. It is no big effort. A dirty/untidy train makes the company and me, as company representative, look bad. Some passengers are absolutely disgusting, but there is no need to stoop to their levels. Nobody wins from a dirty train.

Similarly I will tell people to take their dirty shoes off the seats on our trains. Anyone who refuses gets to find out about the consequences very very quickly.

Sometimes it's the little things that make a big difference.

Well said and I'm sure it's much appreciated by the passengers who then join a cleaner train. Appearance and the general first impressions really do count for a lot. It's very refreshing to see that many rail staff still take considerable pride in their job.

 

[theironroad]

Similarly I will tell people to take their dirty shoes off the seats on our trains. Anyone who refuses gets to find out about the consequences very very quickly.

What are the consequences that they find out very very quickly?

 

[AlterEgo]

I worked in an office grade but when I was a TOC employee I would also chuck litter on our trains in the bin. Fortunately VTWC and XC had pretty decent onboard cleaners. Appreciate it might be a different kettle of fish on suburban TOCs.

I can sympathise with @LowLevel that the railway is an easy place to be mediocre. It is. But also sympathise with @Matt Taylor - if you’re good, and motivated, it is obvious.

As an example I travelled regularly a few days a week on the Milton Keynes to East Croydon route, the whole length, and only had my ticket checked maybe one in ten times. Doing *one* basic revenue check on a two hour long train which is not busy is absolutely the minimum standard.

 

[Emmsie]

I worked in an office grade but when I was a TOC employee I would also chuck litter on our trains in the bin. Fortunately VTWC and XC had pretty decent onboard cleaners. Appreciate it might be a different kettle of fish on suburban TOCs.

I can sympathise with @LowLevel that the railway is an easy place to be mediocre. It is. But also sympathise with @Matt Taylor - if you’re good, and motivated, it is obvious.

As an example I travelled regularly a few days a week on the Milton Keynes to East Croydon route, the whole length, and only had my ticket checked maybe one in ten times. Doing *one* basic revenue check on a two hour long train which is not busy is absolutely the minimum standard.

Not surprised and that route is always conductors from Selhurst.

 

[farleigh]

Amazed at some of the people on here saying somebody should not pick up litter. Comments like that re-inforce a negative view of railway staffs attitude.However, it is heartening to hear that others take a pride in what they do.

 

[Robertj21a]

Amazed at some of the people on here saying somebody should not pick up litter. Comments like that re-inforce a negative view of railway staffs attitude.However, it is heartening to hear that others take a pride in what they do.

I don't know, but I'd guess that the majority of rail staff still take a pride in whatever job they do. Unfortunately, as in any industry, there's probably a significant minority who can't be bothered, have no concept of customer service, or exist with a dinosaur mentality.

 

[farleigh]

You are probably right Robert21a - it is likely a small minority but the fact that attitude exists at all is stunning. It is like something from another age.
"Not my job to pick up litter brother"

 

[Bromley boy]

What a very strange question. How often do you clean your kitchen ?

It appears the point has gone over your head.

If you work in an office based job I doubt you’d take too kindly to being expected to clean it because your employer doesn’t pay for sufficient cleaning staff.

 

[Bromley boy]

are you suggesting they should have a cleaner on board every train then? it could only happen on the railway someone is criticised for taking pride in their job. she is clearly doing it for the benefit of her customers, and pride in doing a good job not to save her employers money. it is a frankly bizarre attitude adopted by a lot of railway dinosaurs, who have had it so easy for so long yet still moan like hell. you have had a good run, be grateful for that and try and look on the positive side of things, there is no immediate threat to your job. nobody in any job has a guarantee their job will be there in 3,5,7 years why do guards think they are so special they should be given that assurance? SWR have said they will roster a guard for the next 7 years, so you will all have a job until at least then, what more do you want?

What an ignorant rant (and you’re supposed to use capital letters after full stops).

Yes cleaners generally attend to every train at terminal stations. This is not done on evening services which become the most filthy, presumably because the TOC would have to pay overtime/anti-social hours rates.

I’m not a guard, so I have no idea who the “you” you are referring to above is.

 

[Bromley boy]

You are probably right Robert21a - it is likely a small minority but the fact that attitude exists at all is stunning. It is like something from another age.
"Not my job to pick up litter brother"

Stunning? I spent years working in office based roles and was never expected to take on cleaning duties. I don’t think anyone would regard that as unusual. Why should the railway be any different?

Do you pick up litter in your workplace?

 

[farleigh]

Stunning? I spent years working in office based roles and was never expected to take on cleaning duties. I don’t think anyone would regard that as unusual. Why should the railway be any different?

Do you pick up litter in your workplace?

Yes I do pick up litter at work. Is it beneath you?