SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

[Robertj21a]

It appears the point has gone over your head.

If you work in an office based job I doubt you’d take too kindly to being expected to clean it because your employer doesn’t pay for sufficient cleaning staff.

The point didn't go over my head, I realised that you were probably just trolling again. As I'm not in an office based job then it was a bit of a silly question for you to be asking.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes I do pick up litter at work. Is it beneath you?

Are you a cleaner then?

It’s not a case of it being beneath me it’s a case of it not being my job. In just the same way as I don’t tend to go around checking tickets, cleaning toilets or dispatching trains.

There shouldn’t be anything remotely controversial about that.

 

[farleigh]

Are you a cleaner then?

It’s not a case of it being beneath me it’s a case of it not being my job. In just the same way as I don’t tend to go around checking tickets, cleaning toilets or dispatching trains.

There’s shouldn’t be anything remotely controversial about that.

Cleaners are beneath you too then?
Oh dear.

 

[Bromley boy]

The point didn't go over my head, I realised that you were probably just trolling again. As I'm not in an office based job then it was a bit of a silly question for you to be asking.

How am I supposed to know that?

Most people, other than cleaners, are not expected to clean litter up in their workplaces. That was my original point.

You replied by asking the completely irrelevant and meaningless question “how often do you clean your kitchen?”. It’s you that appears to be trolling.

 

[Bromley boy]

Cleaners are beneath you too then?
Oh dear.

Comprehension clearly isn’t a strong point of yours. The post you’ve just quoted says the opposite.

Oh dear indeed!

 

[farleigh]

Let's not get silly - we have different views, that's all.

If I see litter then I pick it up.
If you see litter you leave it as that is the cleaners job.

Just different views - neither of us is in the wrong.

 

[Bromley boy]

Let's not get silly - we have different views, that's all.

If I see litter then I pick it up.
If you see litter you leave it as that is the cleaners job.

Just different views - neither of us is in the wrong.

That’s fine - but my overall point is that the TOCs should be ensuring the trains are cleaned properly by employing sufficient cleaners. It shouldn’t fall to other people to do that. It’s nothing to do with it being beneath anyone.

I’d imagine this is why Emmsie’s colleagues might have had an issue with her bringing her own bin liners to work and taking on cleaning.

EDIT: and as alluded to earlier in the thread there is a health and safety issue with picking up litter, cleaners are equipped with gloves and litter pickers for a reason.

 

[farleigh]

It depends how you view it I think. Ultimately people who litter are the problem.

 

[theironroad]

Let's not get silly - we have different views, that's all.

If I see litter then I pick it up.
If you see litter you leave it as that is the cleaners job.

Just different views - neither of us is in the wrong.

There's a vast difference between picking up the odd sweet wrapper or piece of paper on the office floor and walking through a train clearing seats and tables of newspapers, half drunk coffee cups, open bottles of alcohol, the remains of the kebab or fries strewn over the place, let alone the plethora of other detritus that some train passengers think it is ok to leave behind rather than use a bin.

 

[Bromley boy]

It depends how you view it I think. Ultimately people who litter are the problem.

Very true - not helped by the lack of bins of course but there is a small, selfish minority of passengers who leave trains a complete pigsty.

My TOC’s metro services on Friday and Saturday nights are an absolute disgrace. Roving cleaners attend every train during the day but are not present during the evenings and late night when they’re most needed.

 

[CN75]

Surely if a new on train job was created from scratch on some fictional brand new system without the legacy history and behaviour of BR, keeping the train clean would be part of that job as a basic expectation? Some announcements, a ticket inspection, a full cleaning run of all tables, more ticket inspections depending on the journey... or even sales of kit kats. Protecting someone else’s job isn’t really the point, it’s about creating relevance to people on board the train that is justified. As it is, some guards are like cabin crew who sit at one end of the plane for the whole flight just in case they are needed for an emergency that it’s doubtful at best they will be able to handle single handedly. No disprespect intended towards anyone doing the job of guard, the point is just that it has no chance of surviving in it’s current shape and needs to diversify.

 

[CN75]

Anyway - this will be the last industrial action before the RMT needs a new ballot result for more to take place at SWR.

 

[3141]

Firstly, I see no problem with wanting to maintain and create new jobs and if that means having more on train cleaners then that is good. This desire to eliminate jobs across the railway and the wider economy in pursuit of profit is dispiriting.

On train cleaners , whether fully employed or agency should receive full training and, as importantly equipment , to deal with the variety of rubbish on trains and that does include needles discarded in an unsafe manner. Guards have often (maybe not always) encouraged by managers to collect rubbish and been given no training or equipment to carry out the task safely.

If you call that counter productive then that's your call.

The purpose of a railway system is to provide efficient and reliable transport for passengers and goods. It is not there to create jobs.

What is counter-productive is the posts that are reminiscent of the demarcation disputes of the 1970s, from people who seem happy to say "That's not my job, someone else should be employed to do that". They will strengthen opinion against those who strike, and thereby seek to disrupt the service for passengers, in order to maintain a job called "guard" without whom a train would not be allowed to run. As CN75 said in post #101, the role of guards will need to diversify, and they might do better by discussing how that should be instead of striking when it hasn't yet been proposed.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

On board supervisor.

The deeply contentious 'On Board Supervisor', a role introduced by Southern to sideline Conductors as part of their push for DOO.

Thanks both

 

[Emmsie]

I ran my own (successful) business before the railway. There are some great people and you would expect things to change but new staff soon get indoctrinated. From what I witnessed there is a real problem with middle management lying like a smog over the company preventing any real change. The railway management equivalent of 'its not my job' is the shrug and 'it's just the way the railway is'. There are too many different agendas going on to really get any meaningful change that would benefit staff and customers.

 

[Clip]

Are you a cleaner then?

It’s not a case of it being beneath me it’s a case of it not being my job. In just the same way as I don’t tend to go around checking tickets, cleaning toilets or dispatching trains.

There shouldn’t be anything remotely controversial about that.

It may well not be your job but with all due respect you are showing yourself up here a bit by being so stubborn that you cant just pick up a newspaper whilst waling through a train.

When i was on the railway i was always picking up rubbish both from trains and my station platforms - mainly because it helps with good presentation of your trains and stations which is, in my opinion, every staff member should be proud of where they work - but also for perception to both other staff members and passengers alike with the hope that it breeds into them to keep their stations clean too - it does work too.

The idea that there should be a cleaner on every station and every train and that TOCs dont employ enough shows your naivety in how things work nowadays especially with contracted out services and the said costs of providing thousands of staff especially on ones they probably couldnt get through a train anyway due to crush loading. But you keep being the man up front who only wants to drive a train - thats your prerogative but if people want to use their initiative and be proud of what they work on and assist in cleaning their trains and stations then all power to them - they garner far more respect than those who dont.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m personally finding this a really good debate. I can see both sides.

Personally I don’t think there’s anything wrong with guards picking up an odd news paper, coffee cup, drinks bottle etc because it’s not really that taxing (providing there’s not other more pressing things going on, doors, revenue etc) also, if a passenger sees a guard picking up bits and pieces they’re more likely to place their own items in a bin. Also keeping obstructions clear of the door, plastic, news papers etc you’re more likely to run on time.

I do draw the line at fruit peels discarded everywhere, food and beer bottles/cans because you need gloves for that and the uniform of most guards does not reflect the work of a cleaner, it’s not been designed to clean things, it’s designed solely to look smart and assert authority and trust (the fact some guards are scruffy and lack personal hygiene needs to be addressed by management)

The post above about a new role from scratch makes good points, but I wouldn’t want to see 1 person having to do all of those roles, equipping them would be a nightmare and that would be a hell of a work load. There would also be difficulties designing a suitable uniform.

Back to the real world, I’d love more roaming cleaners, Southern have a lot of them around near me and they do a good job.

Finally, yesterday colleagues were mocking a guard for doing 3 revenue sweeps on a 12 car on a 2 hour trip as well as doing doors on some interesting platforms, many of them short, that kind of mentality doesn’t help.

 

[Emmsie]

I’m personally finding this a really good debate. I can see both sides.

Personally I don’t think there’s anything wrong with guards picking up an odd news paper, coffee cup, drinks bottle etc because it’s not really that taxing (providing there’s not other more pressing things going on, doors, revenue etc) also, if a passenger sees a guard picking up bits and pieces they’re more likely to place their own items in a bin. Also keeping obstructions clear of the door, plastic, news papers etc you’re more likely to run on time.

I do draw the line at fruit peels discarded everywhere, food and beer bottles/cans because you need gloves for that and the uniform of most guards does not reflect the work of a cleaner, it’s not been designed to clean things, it’s designed solely to look smart and assert authority and trust (the fact some guards are scruffy and lack personal hygiene needs to be addressed by management)

The post above about a new role from scratch makes good points, but I wouldn’t want to see 1 person having to do all of those roles, equipping them would be a nightmare and that would be a hell of a work load. There would also be difficulties designing a suitable uniform.

Back to the real world, I’d love more roaming cleaners, Southern have a lot of them around near me and they do a good job.

Finally, yesterday colleagues were mocking a guard for doing 3 revenue sweeps on a 12 car on a 2 hour trip as well as doing doors on some interesting platforms, many of them short, that kind of mentality doesn’t help.

Sorry but have you ever in your entire life seen any restaurant staff don gloves to clean a table. There is no safety reason that dictates gloves are necessary to pick up the vast majority of things you've just listed. It really feels as though some train staff live in a parallel universe.

 

[bb21]

What are the consequences that they find out very very quickly?

The two people who got stroppy and refused found themselves on the platform at the next station.

Generally people will do as asked, with some grudgingly complying. I very rarely get problems. I'm sure there will be one which I won't be able to sort by myself one day.

 

[theironroad]

The two people who got stroppy and refused found themselves on the platform at the next station.

Generally people will do as asked, with some grudgingly complying. I very rarely get problems. I'm sure there will be one which I won't be able to sort by myself one day.

Curious, would your management back you up or frown upon if said persons now standing on platform went straight onto twitter to complain and the TOC investigated?

 

[pompeyfan]

Sorry but have you ever in your entire life seen any restaurant staff don gloves to clean a table. There is no safety reason that dictates gloves are necessary to pick up the vast majority of things you've just listed. It really feels as though some train staff live in a parallel universe.

So you would happily pick up someone’s half eaten apple/banana peel that’s been oxidising for a few hours with bare hands? Or clean up cold fries and so on?

You’re more than welcome to, but personally I’d want a pair of latex style gloves.

Beer is also a difficult one because if you spill it down yourself you then smell like alcohol for the rest of the day, which in extreme circumstances can lead to accusations.

I think it’s harsh to say that I live in a parallel world, probably fairer to say we’re all on a scale, I think my opinion is probably middle of the scale, you’re outlook is probably a bit more extreme.

 

[Bromley boy]

It may well not be your job but with all due respect you are showing yourself up here a bit by being so stubborn that you cant just pick up a newspaper whilst waling through a train.

When i was on the railway i was always picking up rubbish both from trains and my station platforms - mainly because it helps with good presentation of your trains and stations which is, in my opinion, every staff member should be proud of where they work - but also for perception to both other staff members and passengers alike with the hope that it breeds into them to keep their stations clean too - it does work too.

Not really. A 9 hour shift with minimal turn arounds, often at funny times of day is more than though without being expected to pick up newspapers or other detritus left by others, thanks very much!

Talk is cheap but I’d hazard a guess many of those posting on here would have a rather different reaction if their boss asked them to take on cleaning duties in addition to their role. There’s a difference between someone going the extra mile at work and taking on someone else’s job.

The idea that there should be a cleaner on every station and every train and that TOCs dont employ enough shows your naivety in how things work nowadays especially with contracted out services and the said costs of providing thousands of staff especially on ones they probably couldnt get through a train anyway due to crush loading. But you keep being the man up front who only wants to drive a train - thats your prerogative but if people want to use their initiative and be proud of what they work on and assist in cleaning their trains and stations then all power to them - they garner far more respect than those who dont.

On the contrary, as I’ve already explained above, my TOC employees roving cleaners at terminal stations who do attend to every train. These cleaners are conspicuous by their absence on Friday and Saturday nights when they are most needed. Why? Because the TOC is penny pinching.

 

[Dave1987]

I think it is hilarious to see people berating some rail staff for not walking through the train clearing litter up. When I've only got a limited amount of turnaround time where after driving for upwards of two hours I have to use the toilet, get myself any refreshments, actually change ends and then set my cab up how exactly am I supposed to walk through the train clearing up the vast amounts of coffee cups and takeaway thrown around the carriage? I find it amazing how certain individuals on this forum can attack rail staff without context. It definitely seems to be a recurring theme.

A lot of TOCs are starting to have train presentation people at terminating stations to clear rubbish. But you find that turnaround times are so tight that the next departure is advertised so quickly that they have no chance to get through the train. I've known commuters be waiting on the platform as I have arrived at my terminus because they know exactly which platform their train will be on, to then complain the train is full of rubbish even though they haven't given the TP staff chance to get on and clear the rubbish.

I would like to say that the TP staff and guards do a thoroughly good job in keeping trains clean. I've seen plenty of guards clear trains of rubbish. The state some trains go into depots at night in is absolutely disgraceful. I cannot believe some people would leave their homes in the state they leave trains.

 

[ComUtoR]

I rarely walk through the unit. I walk alongside.

 

[Bromley boy]

Sorry but have you ever in your entire life seen any restaurant staff don gloves to clean a table. There is no safety reason that dictates gloves are necessary to pick up the vast majority of things you've just listed. It really feels as though some train staff live in a parallel universe.

I have seen waitresses wearing gloves to clean tables, yes.

I also note that the cleaners employed by my TOC are equipped with gloves/litter pickers, so apparently these are considered necessary. A train is not a restaurant and you simply don’t know what might have been left.

It is a little difficult to see where you’re coming from on this thread. You’ve waxed lyrical about how the OBS role was lots of pay for little work, yet also admitted that you struggled with the working environment and the shifts and quit the role which suggests it wasn’t such a walk in the park after all.

If you want to buy your own bin liners, take them into work and pick up rubbish that’s up to you, but I can see why you might get a few funny looks. If you do end up injuring yourself on broken glass, or God forbid a syringe, you’ll get no support from the TOC that’s for sure.

 

[3141]

The post above about a new role from scratch makes good points, but I wouldn’t want to see 1 person having to do all of those roles, equipping them would be a nightmare and that would be a hell of a work load. There would also be difficulties designing a suitable uniform. .

I think CN75 was listing things that might be part of the role, if there was a newly-created railway, rather than including everything that should be in the job description.

But that's why it would be better for the RMT to be discussing what the future role should consist of, while they have some opportunity to shape it, compared with waiting till someone else specifies it and it's more or less forced upon them.

 

[Bromley boy]

But that's why it would be better for the RMT to be discussing what the future role should consist of, while they have some opportunity to shape it, compared with waiting till someone else specifies it and it's more or less forced upon them.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[pompeyfan]

I think CN75 was listing things that might be part of the role, if there was a newly-created railway, rather than including everything that should be in the job description.

But that's why it would be better for the RMT to be discussing what the future role should consist of, while they have some opportunity to shape it, compared with waiting till someone else specifies it and it's more or less forced upon them.

I get that agrument, but if the RMT agree to change the role of the 2nd member of staff and they make that agreement in good faith, there’s nothing to stop the TOC/DfT pulling the plug whenever they feel like it. Personally I don’t trust any government and I also feel uneasy swallowing everything the TOCs say hook, line and sinker.

 

[bb21]

Curious, would your management back you up or frown upon if said persons now standing on platform went straight onto twitter to complain and the TOC investigated?

Seeing that said complaint would likely end up with me, and given my boss's attitude towards anti-social behaviour, I would say yes. (So no, I don't expect normal onboard staff to take the same approach.)

Obviously be strategic. Don't do it somewhere like Clapham Junction or East Croydon. At a place like Westbury, do your worst. In any case, at busy locations near London it is unlikely you find yourself patrolling the train.

Re: litter picking. I don't think it is a question of what is expected of onboard staff in most cases. It is more about whether one wishes to go over and above one's job description. Use common sense. If you cannot see what you are picking up, or feel uncomfortable, then don't do it. To most of us I suspect, picking up a couple of newspaper and empty drinks bottles is no biggie.

 

[Emmsie]

I have seen waitresses wearing gloves to clean tables, yes.

I also note that the cleaners employed by my TOC are equipped with gloves/litter pickers, so apparently these are considered necessary. A train is not a restaurant and you simply don’t know what might have been left.

It is a little difficult to see where you’re coming from on this thread. You’ve waxed lyrical about how the OBS role was lots of pay for little work, yet also admitted that you struggled with the working environment and the shifts and quit the role which suggests it wasn’t such a walk in the park after all.

If you want to buy your own bin liners, take them into work and pick up rubbish that’s up to you, but I can see why you might get a few funny looks. If you do end up injuring yourself on broken glass, or God forbid a syringe, you’ll get no support from the TOC that’s for sure.

The only struggle was finding things to do to fill the time, hence happy to clean tables with bin bags given to me by the cleaning staff. Some weeks I spent less than 10 hours on a train working, and the rest of the time in mess rooms listening to people moaning constantly and finding new excuses or ways to justify doing bugger all. Besides a pair of rubber gloves is not going to protect anyone from a needle and picking up rubbish is far less risky than being on a train out of Victoria at 2.00am on a Friday night/Sat morning.