SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

[Goldfish62]

Getting very fed up with these strikes now. Although I support the idea of a guard on every train, realistically:

1) SWR don't want it. Yes their current proposal is very probably the 'thin end of the wedge', but...
2) I'll still travel on an SWR train without a guard - I may be at greater risk, I may not like it but it's a small risk and I'll take it.
3) It doesn't look as though the RMT can do anything to change SWR's minds.

So we're left with these pointless, annoying strikes. Unless the RMT can bring SWR to its knees (which, evidently, they can't), they might as well give up.

Personally I don't have an issue with travelling on DOO trains. I've been doing it for decades, but I understand those who are bothered by it (although they've most likely travelled on DOO trains themselves and not realised it, just as some commuters on SWR thought their trains were already DOO until this dispute raised guards' profiles).

As I stated in a previous post, perhaps the solution to break the impasse is that any train that needs to run without a guard is advertised as such so passengers can make up their own minds whether to board. However, I don't see this as being acceptable to the RMT because:
1. It would erode their industrial strength, which is really what the dispute is all about
2. They see a high chance of a Labour government soon, who would most likely instruct SWR to cancel their plans.

 

[mcatts]

I'm not really sure why such a fuss is made about on board safety. Take SWR for example, I've never seen a guard out of the rear cab. Not exactly visible are they.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not really sure why such a fuss is made about on board safety. Take SWR for example, I've never seen a guard out of the rear cab. Not exactly visible are they.

You must be in the inner suburbs or the Reading/Windsor routes, because it’s rare not to see the commercial guards on the mainline routes.

 

[Kite159]

I can't remember who mentioned it earlier in the week about guards locking out the gangway on a pair of 450s, but there is at least one set like it on the Reading circuit today, gangway locked out of use with the guard hiding away in one of the middle cabs.

(Now it could be just a case of that set has a fault which means the gangway needs to be locked out of use, but seems odd)

 

[Dr Hoo]

I can't remember who mentioned it earlier in the week about guards locking out the gangway on a pair of 450s, but there is at least one set like it on the Reading circuit today, gangway locked out of use with the guard hiding away in one of the middle cabs.

(Now it could be just a case of that set has a fault which means the gangway needs to be locked out of use, but seems odd)

I thought that that was a common mode of operation. Don’t usually travel by SWR very much but seen it twice recently on 450s at Surbiton and Woking. On one occasion another passenger was annoyed that she couldn’t walk through to meet a friend.

 

[Meerkat]

Do Reading/Windsor line trains have guards?
If they do they have added no value as when I have been on those trains I haven’t seen them - it has been a head down, make no eye contact with the drunks, beggars and buskers on board unpleasant experience

 

[swt_passenger]

Do Reading/Windsor line trains have guards?
If they do they have added no value as when I have been on those trains I haven’t seen them - it has been a head down, make no eye contact with the drunks, beggars and buskers on board unpleasant experience

Every SWR train in passenger service has a guard.

 

[Meerkat]

Reading/Windsor lines I have never noticed them.
Mainline into London I hear them but don’t see them - the only impact they have on my journey is to slow it down with the painfully slow doors release.

 

[Ethano92]

You must be in the inner suburbs or the Reading/Windsor routes, because it’s rare not to see the commercial guards on the mainline routes.

I thought it was only the suburban guards on routes that will be 701 operated that were in question anyway. And I agree, they never make an appearance on suburban routes but commercial guards are always walking through.

I don't really get good experiencs with commercial guards and I rarely get any experience at all with the suburban ones. I remember one time the train from Waterloo decided to skip Surbiton roughly 30 seconds before the doors closed and the guard was genuinely telling people that didn't have enough time to get off to buy a valid ticket (to west byfleet) even though we had all touched in expecting to touch at at surbiton. I didn't have it and saved a very gullable lady from spending an unnecessary tenner. Little sympathy for SWR guards on inner or outer suburban routes. As said in the post above, they just slow down door release sometimes to a comical level.

 

[Kite159]

I thought that that was a common mode of operation. Don’t usually travel by SWR very much but seen it twice recently on 450s at Surbiton and Woking. On one occasion another passenger was annoyed that she couldn’t walk through to meet a friend.

I've never noticed the gangway door on a pair of 450s being locked out of use, unless the train is due to split

 

[Goldfish62]

I've never noticed the gangway door on a pair of 450s being locked out of use, unless the train is due to split

Travel on the Windsor Lines and you will.

 

[pompeyfan]

It was me that initially mentioned some 450s with gangways locked out, but as others have noticed it’s becoming more frequent.

A couple of points to make in regards to things that have been raised.

If you’re joining a Mainline service at Woking/Guildford, just because you don’t see the guard it doesn’t mean they’re sat in a middle cab scratching their backside, it could well be that they’re doing revenue or customer service duties in the 11 other coaches on the train, especially if the service has called at lots of stations with short platforms.

In regards to guards being lazy and not opening the doors proactively, it’s likely that they’re checking that the train is correctly accommodated. If the driver stops short and the guard just pings the doors you’d all have a field day crucifying staff on here if parts of the train were off the platform. In an ideal world it would be driver release but each coach protected by ASDO in case the driver stops short, unfortunately Desiros and diesels can’t do that (in fact only 458s can).

Unfortunately more and more staff are becoming demoralised, which is actually shooting themselves in the foot because it proves the pro-DOO brigade right because they’re making themselves less visible. SWR are giving some of the grade the rope, and the demoralised ones are hanging them and their colleagues.

 

[Meerkat]

A bit of a giveaway, or maybe just poor PR, is the announcement on the lines of “I am in coach 8/towards the rear of the train”, rather than “I will be walking forwards through the train”

On a 12 coach train can the guard easily check all coaches are in platform more safely than a driver checking DCO cameras? The driver should only need to check the last coach - you would hope he knows where the front one is!

 

[pompeyfan]

A bit of a giveaway, or maybe just poor PR, is the announcement on the lines of “I am in coach 8/towards the rear of the train”, rather than “I will be walking forwards through the train”

On a 12 coach train can the guard easily check all coaches are in platform more safely than a driver checking DCO cameras? The driver should only need to check the last coach - you would hope he knows where the front one is!

I’d assume different guards have different ways of checking accommodation, looking forward and seeing the train is at the correct mark (not without it’s risks I suppose), looking back and seeing the train is on, or most people favourite, middle/rear cab dispatch using the drop light window to see the train into the platform.

When the 375s were introduced the cameras were agreed to only be used for the driver checking accommodation and releasing doors, dispatch remained the conductors job.

I’m all for driver release to improve dwell time providing a safe guard is there to mitigate against stop shorts.

 

[DennisM]

I can see why 450s on the Windsor side would have their gangways locked, with the majority of stock being 458 and 707 means there’s usually no through access on the services these are operating on, and little to no necessity to move forward for short platforms on an 8 coach train.
A stopping service out of Waterloo will have the platform change side at every station as far as Queenstown Road, whilst also having a steady stream of passengers attempting to walk through the gangway to the front of the train. The guard has to see the train out of the previous station, key off, then unlock, pass through and re-lock the two sets of doors before keying back on in time to see the train into the next station. There’s also a large number of guards being trained at present, as well as contingency guards for strike days, if someone is being trained then there’s not enough room for 2 people on one side of the cab with the gangway remaining open.

 

[Meerkat]

Sounds like it would be easier for the driver to do it....

 

[DennisM]

Sounds like it would be easier for the driver to do it....

Not in their job description

 

[Meerkat]

Why not, all part of being in control of the train?

 

[Stigy]

Why not, all part of being in control of the train?

Offer them an extra £10k a year and you’ll be surprised what can be added to their JD

 

[DennisM]

Offer them an extra £10k a year and you’ll be surprised what can be added to their JD

Why would SWR want to spend all that money when they’re keeping a guard on every train anyway?

 

[pompeyfan]

ASLEF are in talks with SWR to bring their pay up, as currently they’re (apparently) the 2nd lowest paid passenger TOC driver, there may be a change in responsibility but the two are not connected as such, so before people start jumping on the band wagon and labelling drivers sellouts and greedy, it’s probably best to put that one to bed.

 

[Goldfish62]

I can see why 450s on the Windsor side would have their gangways locked, with the majority of stock being 458 and 707 means there’s usually no through access on the services these are operating on, and little to no necessity to move forward for short platforms on an 8 coach train.
.

Fortunately the majority of guards don't share your view. In any case a driver friend of mine told me that locking the gangway on 450s is strictly forbidden as it acts as an emergency escape route.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

I do think South Western Railway working practices have fallen behind that of their counterparts. It does seem to be all very dated, obviously not helped by having older stock. If the Drivers are going to have a pay increase, to bring them up to other TOCs surely they will need to come up to the same productivity level as such (in the eyes of management). Surely the compromise to be had, when the new trains come in is to have a Commercial Guard on board every service. The RMT seems to be moving the goalposts now on what they expect, originally it was a Guard on every service now it appears despite agreeing the driver dispatch deal on GA they want sole control of the doors. I think the SWR proposal is a fine balance to strike, driver controlling the doors, guard on board providing high level customer service, being proactive in the Passenger areas by not having to open the doors from the cab at every stop every couple of minutes. The disruption clauses obviously be need to be worked out but should not be to the detriment of vulnerable customers, stations must be staffed within the disruption DOO zone in case of trains running without a 2nd person.

 

[infobleep]

Reading/Windsor lines I have never noticed them.
Mainline into London I hear them but don’t see them - the only impact they have on my journey is to slow it down with the painfully slow doors release.

I thought the slow door release was on 450 stock and perhaps 444 stock. Given those classes of stock are not being phased out, it won't change

 

[infobleep]

It was me that initially mentioned some 450s with gangways locked out, but as others have noticed it’s becoming more frequent.

A couple of points to make in regards to things that have been raised.

If you’re joining a Mainline service at Woking/Guildford, just because you don’t see the guard it doesn’t mean they’re sat in a middle cab scratching their backside, it could well be that they’re doing revenue or customer service duties in the 11 other coaches on the train, especially if the service has called at lots of stations with short platforms.

In regards to guards being lazy and not opening the doors proactively, it’s likely that they’re checking that the train is correctly accommodated. If the driver stops short and the guard just pings the doors you’d all have a field day crucifying staff on here if parts of the train were off the platform. In an ideal world it would be driver release but each coach protected by ASDO in case the driver stops short, unfortunately Desiros and diesels can’t do that (in fact only 458s can).

Unfortunately more and more staff are becoming demoralised, which is actually shooting themselves in the foot because it proves the pro-DOO brigade right because they’re making themselves less visible. SWR are giving some of the grade the rope, and the demoralised ones are hanging them and their colleagues.

The doors opening off platform actually happened recently. At least I reckon the doors were off platform as the guard asked passengers to move down the train.

This was after the doors opened, the driver asked the guard not to open them and they then shut again. In that order.

Itd a long platform so slight possibity they it was on the platform fully. I'm not going to day which train and all that.

People are human.

 

[lewisf]

I thought the slow door release was on 450 stock and perhaps 444 stock. Given those classes of stock are not being phased out, it won't change

It’s nothing to do with the Desiros being slow to open after the door button has been pressed, but the guard taking an age to activate them in the first place.

The guards also take an age to release the doors on the 455s and 707s which are very quick to respond once you press the passenger buttons.

 

[DennisM]

It’s nothing to do with the Desiros being slow to open after the door button has been pressed, but the guard taking an age to activate them in the first place.

The guards also take an age to release the doors on the 455s and 707s which are very quick to respond once you press the passenger buttons.

It has everything to do with the slow opening doors on a desiro, the guard has to open a local door to look out down the train before they can release the rest of the doors, if that door takes 5 seconds to open then there’s nothing the guard can do to speed up that process short of not doing the required safety check.

 

[swt_passenger]

It has everything to do with the slow opening doors on a desiro, the guard has to open a local door to look out down the train before they can release the rest of the doors, if that door takes 5 seconds to open then there’s nothing the guard can do to speed up that process short of not doing the required safety check.

SWT/SWR guards have previously posted that they are allowed to open the doors without a further check if they are sure of the trains position; eg a four car in the middle of a long platform, or at the buffers...

 

[lewisf]

It has everything to do with the slow opening doors on a desiro, the guard has to open a local door to look out down the train before they can release the rest of the doors, if that door takes 5 seconds to open then there’s nothing the guard can do to speed up that process short of not doing the required safety check.

Why does it take them so long on a 707 then? Those doors aren’t slow!

 

[Ethano92]

Why does it take them so long on a 707 then? Those doors aren’t slow!

Agreed. Door release much faster on the overground for example. To those who say it's about the doors themselves, note I said 'release', not 'open' because we are talking about how long it takes for the passenger buttons to be activated, not how long it takes for the doors to respond to the button being pressed. Therefore a Desiros slow moving doors are not part of the equation.

On a DOO service the driver will know the train is fully in the platform by being in the correct position and it's not as if they'd forget how long their fixed form 10 car 701 is therefore that negates the need to waste 10 or so seconds checking the platform. Especially considering you probably wouldn't be able to tell if say just the last door was of at some stations if you were coach 4 of a 12 train whereas a driver would notice from the bodyside camera monitors.