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SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

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Ethano92

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You’ve missed my point. Full Crew Working is where the driver and guard follow the same diagram/duty all day. That means that if you have one during disruption you’ll have the other. The only way you’ll end up without a guard is if they go sick, which is what cover turns are there for.

I’m not 100 percent sure that this dispute will only refer to the 701s. There’s nothing to stop a Desiro or diesel being dispatched next stop woking.

Ok then sorry, misunderstood. I agree with that however surely there's a reason this isn't already done since it makes sense to some degree. Still don't support the cause since from my view RMT are just using safety as their go to argument when hundeds of trains run without a guard safely daily.

I mean with a fast to Woking desiro, what would be the problem in running it guardless to Woking, since there's dispatch team at Waterloo. I certainly wouldn't care and would rather the train leaves than is just cancelled. Still, I can't say I knew this was ever an intention of SWR but even if it was I think that would do more good than bad.
 
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The strike still has a long way to go... its dead lock until the 701s are in service as no DOO will be feasible up until then. I also cannot see long distance services reverting to DOO as there is no way the trains will be retrofitted with cameras its physically and financially impossible. The way SWR are going about it is still pretty honourable but I still believe doors will revert to the driver, as there needs to be a uniform method of working and drivers need to be competent with DOO working and dispatch so to speak. I cannot see competency standards and RAIB being very sympathetic if there is an incident and the Driver has only performed DOO once in a couple of years because all the trains had a Guard on prior.

Would many people be against an OBS/Ticket Examiner approach in the Metro Surbuban areas with instead of a non-commercial guard we have a highly visible customer service agent in the vestibule going through the trains with an Envoy machine and RID checking tickets, patrolling the trains whilst assisting customers on and off. Qualified Guard or not that should be the end game and would be a great method of working.
 

pompeyfan

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Ok then sorry, misunderstood. I agree with that however surely there's a reason this isn't already done since it makes sense to some degree. Still don't support the cause since from my view RMT are just using safety as their go to argument when hundeds of trains run without a guard safely daily.

I mean with a fast to Woking desiro, what would be the problem in running it guardless to Woking, since there's dispatch team at Waterloo. I certainly wouldn't care and would rather the train leaves than is just cancelled. Still, I can't say I knew this was ever an intention of SWR but even if it was I think that would do more good than bad.

I can think of at least 3 occasions in the past year where the guards have been involved in major incidents between Woking and Waterloo, on one occasion it’s fair to say that the guard literally saved the persons life. Even the other day on Tuesday morning guards were remarked as being pivotal to preventing passengers in self evacuating after trains were stuck on the UMF for nearly 3 hours.

Guards don’t particularly care about the doors, Driver release guard close is probably the best compromise in my opinion however them being on the train can pay their own way, especially during unforeseen circumstances.
 

Antman

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Every train in passenger service, i.e. the status quo. ECS can still, as it currently can, be DOO.
That is not what the statement says.

The only use of the word “passenger” in the entire thing is ironically about demanding SWR is honest with them.

That’s the point.
 

infobleep

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Why would most people want to see passanger s left stranded on possibly unstaffed platforms during disruption? Oh I forgot it’s actually got very little to do with protecting the customer and almost everything to do with protecting future bargaining power, perhaps the RMT should have the integrity to publish that if we’re discussing accuracy of press releases
I personally don't care what the RMTs political aims are. I want a train with a guard and driver for safety reasons. Hence the Northern deal would do nicely.

Yes I do travel on trains without guards but I'd rather not given a choice of who should or shouldn't be employed on a train.
 

infobleep

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SWR want to have the flexibility to still be able to dispatch a train without a guard in the event of unexpected sudden circumstances meaning they are absent (e.g. other train delays, last minute illness), knowing a replacement can jump on at the next station or two down the line.

So many trains are cancelled or heavily delayed due to this issue in my experience, that I can see their point if the driver is sitting there waiting to go, and has the tools to do it. I eminently support it in fact. Why delay or cancel a train at Waterloo, and cause all the knock on effects, if they can get someone to jump on at Clapham Junction?

I guess the grey area is what these 'exceptional' circumstances are and where the line is drawn, and how long a train is run without a guard.

Ultimately at the end of the day this is still mostly about the RMT guards' powers to inflict maximum damage during strike action and their political clout. Sugarcoating it with safety, etc. isn't working anymore. Especially with the way their social media account seems to fly off the handle at anybody who dares oppose them.
Do we have publicly avilable stats on the number of trains cancelled on SWR and of those:
How many were due to their being no driver?
How many were due to their being no guard?
How many were due to other reasons?

If there was no guard or driver do we have stats on what percentage was known about in advance and what was short notice?

It might be helpful to go back several years to get a better reflection.
 
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Helvellyn

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You’ve missed my point. Full Crew Working is where the driver and guard follow the same diagram/duty all day. That means that if you have one during disruption you’ll have the other. The only way you’ll end up without a guard is if they go sick, which is what cover turns are there for.
I'll bite and play devil's advocate. With Drivers and Guards on different T&Cs (days worked, hours per week, rostering of breaks) 100% full crew working introduces an element of inefficiency for times when a Guard would have to be inactive. Add when Drivers do shunt moves, ECS trips, etc. and this can build up.

The issue would be whether the cost of 100% full crew working would outweigh costs from train delays/cancellations due to crew related issues.

I’m not 100 percent sure that this dispute will only refer to the 701s. There’s nothing to stop a Desiro or diesel being dispatched next stop woking.
SWR have said this is only for when the 701s are introduced, which with bodyside cameras will be DOO(P) compliant. The issue is down to trust of SWR management not taking it further and RMT senior leadership viewing it as the thin end of the wedge and not wanting to set a precedent, either for SWR or another TOC.

Retrofitting other SWR stock for DOO(P) operation is cost that SWR have not budgeted for, and what would the return be on doing it when they are talking "exceptional" circumstances. Remember, these proposals were not DfT mandated as part of the ITT and are purely down to First/MTR believing it is the right thing to do.

I'll add a further point - DOO(P) in this case will be so infrequent that a Driver will be taking a lot of extra care. I suspect station dwell times on a DOO(P) train will be higher than one with a Guard for that reason. Probably viewed as the lesser of two evils - en-route delays versus a train stuck blocking a platform. In such cases why would SWR want to attempt more DOO(P) operation than was strictly necessary?

As I've posted previously in this thread I think this ultimately comes down to trust, which seems sadly lacking between both parties.
 

Carlisle

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Full crew working is the way forward.
Maybe it is, although I could perhaps see it being argued particularly in light of the recent high profile onboard incident that doubling the number of crew needed to sit spare at various locations isn’t the best use of customer facing resources
 
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Goldfish62

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I'll add a further point - DOO(P) in this case will be so infrequent that a Driver will be taking a lot of extra care. I suspect station dwell times on a DOO(P) train will be higher than one with a Guard for that reason. Probably viewed as the lesser of two evils - en-route delays versus a train stuck blocking a platform. In such cases why would SWR want to attempt more DOO(P) operation than was strictly necessary?

I've always assumed that SWR's proposed method of operation for the 701s is for the driver to have full control of the doors irrespective of whether there's a guard on the train.
 

Dieseldriver

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I can think of at least 3 occasions in the past year where the guards have been involved in major incidents between Woking and Waterloo, on one occasion it’s fair to say that the guard literally saved the persons life. Even the other day on Tuesday morning guards were remarked as being pivotal to preventing passengers in self evacuating after trains were stuck on the UMF for nearly 3 hours.

Guards don’t particularly care about the doors, Driver release guard close is probably the best compromise in my opinion however them being on the train can pay their own way, especially during unforeseen circumstances.
Funnily enough, the Pro DOO lobby are yet to reply to that one...
 

DennisM

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That is not what the statement says.

The only use of the word “passenger” in the entire thing is ironically about demanding SWR is honest with them.

That’s the point.

It’s blatantly obvious to everyone except those trying to pick holes in every word the RMT says that the dispute has nothing to do with non passenger carrying train movements. Your only ‘point’ seems to be an attempt to misinterpret the statement to support your view that the RMT is making ludicrous demands... such as guards on ECS movements and trains moving within sidings?
 

Ethano92

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I can think of at least 3 occasions in the past year where the guards have been involved in major incidents between Woking and Waterloo, on one occasion it’s fair to say that the guard literally saved the persons life. Even the other day on Tuesday morning guards were remarked as being pivotal to preventing passengers in self evacuating after trains were stuck on the UMF for nearly 3 hours.

Guards don’t particularly care about the doors, Driver release guard close is probably the best compromise in my opinion however them being on the train can pay their own way, especially during unforeseen circumstances.

That's all well and good but I can think of a fairly recent incident (not an evacuation) that happened on a guarded train. Additionally, this was simply a suggestion and wouldn't be implemented by SWR for fast services unless you were talking about a stopping service. Fact of life is bad things happen very unfortunately but there are safety procedures in place and i trust those. I will agree it was however fortunate a guard was present on those services but doesn't make them needed constantly as shown by Southeastern running their metro routes easily for example. You'v mentioned 3 incidents over the course of the year out of how many hundred trains entering and exiting Waterloo daily? Are we supposed to always prepare for the worst, whilst we are at it lets put a 5mph limit across the SWML to minimalist the effects of a derailment. Things happen, but the majority of the time they don't. If Thameslink trains can run to Peterborough DOO safely then I'm sure a suburban service to Hampton court can.

My issue is, I don't care if there's a guard on my train or not, same as many other people. Of course a lot of people do but why should the people who don't care have to deal with a cancelled train or strike for the sake of the people who do rather than the people that do care about a guard just not board the train? It would be an easy thing to publicise on displays and I think is fair honestly then you can laugh at me for boarding the train the extremely rare occasion there's an emergency and I end up in my grave after excessive smoke inhalation (note how that sounds like an exaggeration because of how infrequently that happens)
 
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Antman

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No it isn’t. The RMT is laying down a public challenge, which it says is simple. Except it isn’t. The RMT has put out a press release, which has been carefully thought out and checked. It has a number of inaccuracies, inconsistencies and potential bear traps in it. The assumption therefore is that these are entirely intentional. I used to sign off on these for corporates on takeovers .... they were verified and went through a team to be checked.

It is a standard counsel cross-examination technique to ask one seemingly simple question and spin the answer to force others or to selectively use it/quote it later. If SWR did answer and fall for it, the RMT could well use it later.. “SWR committed to a guard on every single train. Publicly. Look. You can’t trust these people.” Etc. Etc.

I don’t know what the RMT’s intent Is. I am actually surprised you would see those demands as ludicrous though. I didn’t think they were. Because you could easily construct an argument to say that it’s all about safety and trains are safer with two crew (driver and a guard). ECS running from some stations, what happens if ECS stops at a platform at say CLJ at rush hour? Or say at Twickenham on a rugby day? The train will be safer with a guard and a driver than just a driver. As a passenger, I’d much rather see more people working than not, I’d rather see good trained staff doing a job. At the same time, I have to accept that if technology can make it safe enough and the remaining man (or woman) can safely deal, then there is an argument for having DOO. Personally I am not sure the systems are currently good enough and I don’t see how DOO can cope with all the different scenarios (wheelchair passengers, disruptive passengers, how revenue is maintained consistently. Assisting ill passengers, potential incidents where management but two trained people is better), but the RMT is not great at working with anyone to try to see what can be done. It always seems to just say “NO”. And it is regularly political about it. The RMT will no doubt say that is because they don’t trust the train cos or this Tory Government..... but how does that help passengers or membership. Especially when all the public sees is that the problem seemingly gets fixed elsewhere with more money for its members, which hangs those guards out to dry. That is where the RMT May get it wrong. It makes what it claims is a principled stand here, when elsewhere the answer to the same problem is to simply pay baksheesh.

On the conductor versus guard point, again, it is utterly peculiar that experts in the field use differing terms if they mean the same. I would not believe it was an accident. Basic verification shows me that, even in the annals of this site, other railwaymen have found it fairly easy to distinguish between the two in terms of role; as such I would be questioning why the RMT, as experts, had used different terms. And I’d be extremely cynical as to why.

As I intimated before, I don’t think that SWR is squeaky clean either. At all. But the RMT statement is, in my view, designed to get people to think it is as simple as it looks, and to paint SWR as unreasonable. But it is not that innocuous and because of its flaws, a simple answer to it could well offer the RMT future ammunition in their propaganda war with SWR.

The Trojans looked at the horse. They couldn’t see the down side..... whoops.
 

pompeyfan

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I'll bite and play devil's advocate. With Drivers and Guards on different T&Cs (days worked, hours per week, rostering of breaks) 100% full crew working introduces an element of inefficiency for times when a Guard would have to be inactive. Add when Drivers do shunt moves, ECS trips, etc. and this can build up.

The issue would be whether the cost of 100% full crew working would outweigh costs from train delays/cancellations due to crew related issues.


SWR have said this is only for when the 701s are introduced, which with bodyside cameras will be DOO(P) compliant. The issue is down to trust of SWR management not taking it further and RMT senior leadership viewing it as the thin end of the wedge and not wanting to set a precedent, either for SWR or another TOC.

Retrofitting other SWR stock for DOO(P) operation is cost that SWR have not budgeted for, and what would the return be on doing it when they are talking "exceptional" circumstances. Remember, these proposals were not DfT mandated as part of the ITT and are purely down to First/MTR believing it is the right thing to do.

I'll add a further point - DOO(P) in this case will be so infrequent that a Driver will be taking a lot of extra care. I suspect station dwell times on a DOO(P) train will be higher than one with a Guard for that reason. Probably viewed as the lesser of two evils - en-route delays versus a train stuck blocking a platform. In such cases why would SWR want to attempt more DOO(P) operation than was strictly necessary?

As I've posted previously in this thread I think this ultimately comes down to trust, which seems sadly lacking between both parties.


I haven’t got a huge amount of time to reply, but briefly,

I agree that FCW is probably not very efficient. I suppose that could be got around though by putting guards on the same 36 hour 4 day week.

I agree with the majority of what you say and it’s pretty obvious that Desiros won’t be retrofitted, however my concern is that there would be nothing to stop a Desiro being dispatched in service used CD/RA with the next stop being woking. How do we know for certain that SWR won’t try it once the 701s are in service.

I understand the 701s will use the wonderful government crafted ‘DCO’ so the driver is in charge of everything, but the guard is still onboard and still full competent as they’ll alternate through Desiro stock and 701 stock.
 

HH

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I think it needs to be pointed out that Full Crew Working was in use at SWT - paid for by NR as part of the Alliance deal, because they were told that it would reduce delays. It didn't and they stopped paying for it.
 

Goldfish62

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I agree with the majority of what you say and it’s pretty obvious that Desiros won’t be retrofitted, however my concern is that there would be nothing to stop a Desiro being dispatched in service used CD/RA with the next stop being woking. How do we know for certain that SWR won’t try it once the 701s are in service.
I understand that, but surely that's a battle to be fought at the appropriate time Otherwise where do you draw the line? Have a dispute now based on full automation of the railways with no staff in, say, 100 years time?
 

lewisf

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If Thameslink trains can run to Peterborough DOO safely then I'm sure a suburban service to Hampton court can.

Well said. While there are DOO services happily running on other parts of the network I don’t buy RMTs assertions that all DOO is inherently unsafe.

Maybe if the RMT didn’t affect passengers with their disputes we’d be more supportive, but personally I think SWR’s proposals are more than reasonable. The class 701s are DOO capable and they could have gone down that route.
 

Carlisle

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Because you could easily construct an argument to say that it’s all about safety and trains are safer with two crew (driver and a guard). ECS running from some stations, what happens if ECS stops at a platform at say CLJ at rush hour? Or say at Twickenham on a rugby day? The train will be safer with a guard and a driver than just a driver.
Whilst that might be technically true, to my knowledge the RMT fully understand and appreciate that battle was lost 35 years ago when DOO became the default standard for most ECS,Freight & Parcel workings, hence they’ve long since given up investing any time money or effort campaigning for guards to be reinstated in those sectors, however recent RMT achievements on Merseyrail northern GA and Scotrail against DOO(p) suggest the industry/ DFT need to up their game significantly if they actually want to see that capability increased at all
 
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infobleep

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No it isn’t. The RMT is laying down a public challenge, which it says is simple. Except it isn’t. The RMT has put out a press release, which has been carefully thought out and checked. It has a number of inaccuracies, inconsistencies and potential bear traps in it. The assumption therefore is that these are entirely intentional. I used to sign off on these for corporates on takeovers .... they were verified and went through a team to be checked.

It is a standard counsel cross-examination technique to ask one seemingly simple question and spin the answer to force others or to selectively use it/quote it later. If SWR did answer and fall for it, the RMT could well use it later.. “SWR committed to a guard on every single train. Publicly. Look. You can’t trust these people.” Etc. Etc.

I don’t know what the RMT’s intent Is. I am actually surprised you would see those demands as ludicrous though. I didn’t think they were. Because you could easily construct an argument to say that it’s all about safety and trains are safer with two crew (driver and a guard). ECS running from some stations, what happens if ECS stops at a platform at say CLJ at rush hour? Or say at Twickenham on a rugby day? The train will be safer with a guard and a driver than just a driver. As a passenger, I’d much rather see more people working than not, I’d rather see good trained staff doing a job. At the same time, I have to accept that if technology can make it safe enough and the remaining man (or woman) can safely deal, then there is an argument for having DOO. Personally I am not sure the systems are currently good enough and I don’t see how DOO can cope with all the different scenarios (wheelchair passengers, disruptive passengers, how revenue is maintained consistently. Assisting ill passengers, potential incidents where management but two trained people is better), but the RMT is not great at working with anyone to try to see what can be done. It always seems to just say “NO”. And it is regularly political about it. The RMT will no doubt say that is because they don’t trust the train cos or this Tory Government..... but how does that help passengers or membership. Especially when all the public sees is that the problem seemingly gets fixed elsewhere with more money for its members, which hangs those guards out to dry. That is where the RMT May get it wrong. It makes what it claims is a principled stand here, when elsewhere the answer to the same problem is to simply pay baksheesh.

On the conductor versus guard point, again, it is utterly peculiar that experts in the field use differing terms if they mean the same. I would not believe it was an accident. Basic verification shows me that, even in the annals of this site, other railwaymen have found it fairly easy to distinguish between the two in terms of role; as such I would be questioning why the RMT, as experts, had used different terms. And I’d be extremely cynical as to why.

As I intimated before, I don’t think that SWR is squeaky clean either. At all. But the RMT statement is, in my view, designed to get people to think it is as simple as it looks, and to paint SWR as unreasonable. But it is not that innocuous and because of its flaws, a simple answer to it could well offer the RMT future ammunition in their propaganda war with SWR.

The Trojans looked at the horse. They couldn’t see the down side..... whoops.
SWR put our a press release in 2017 or 18 that give the impression nothing was changing, if you didn't read it carefully.

I don't trust either side but I do think guards on all trains is what's needed.
 

adamello

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SWR put our a press release in 2017 or 18 that give the impression nothing was changing, if you didn't read it carefully.

I don't trust either side but I do think guards on all trains is what's needed.

and to be fair - they haven't committed one way or another, they said they will review the practice for the new stock.

earlier it was mentioned the RMT and SWR had poor relations, that probably wasn't helped by RMT attacking them, suggesting SWR were considering DOO - and threatening industrial action, before First/MTR had even taken the franchise from Stagecoach.
 

infobleep

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and to be fair - they haven't committed one way or another, they said they will review the practice for the new stock.

earlier it was mentioned the RMT and SWR had poor relations, that probably wasn't helped by RMT attacking them, suggesting SWR were considering DOO - and threatening industrial action, before First/MTR had even taken the franchise from Stagecoach.
It stated further down the press release that the method of working was changing on the 701, so there was a change and they were trying to give the impression of no change.

They didn't say no change exactly but the changes were buried and it was worded to give the impression of no change.
 

Helvellyn

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I agree that FCW is probably not very efficient. I suppose that could be got around though by putting guards on the same 36 hour 4 day week.
True but was it two or three times that Guards rejected SWT proposals for a reduced working week? The most recent one in 2015 was by a big margin even though it included a commitment by Stagecoach to start negotiations to reduce it further if they retained the franchise. Drivers took a long time to get to where they are and some Guards seem to still fail to grasp that a 20% decrease in their working week requires a 20% increase in the number of Guards.

I agree with the majority of what you say and it’s pretty obvious that Desiros won’t be retrofitted, however my concern is that there would be nothing to stop a Desiro being dispatched in service used CD/RA with the next stop being woking. How do we know for certain that SWR won’t try it once the 701s are in service.
That comes back to the trust issue.
 

Monty

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Looks like the company are finally committing to a similar deal as Northern.
 

387star

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I can imagine when 313s at Southern are replaced the rmt might do a deal that any new stock is guaranteed a guard for those former services regardless of who does the doors. They have unfinished business there after all...

Statement from RMT about SWR...
Through the talks process the company have now offered a guarantee of a guard on the South Western Railway services that have been in dispute. The company offer says: 1. South Western Railway confirm that on the introduction of any new or other modified rolling stock, each passenger train shall operate with a guard with safety critical competencies. Specific Safety Critical competencies shall be agreed by SWR and RMT. 2. All rolling stock train dispatch shall be subject to undertaking a safety risk assessment, on a station by station basis. This assessment will be completed with the involvement of company and trade union representatives utilising the agreed PTI assessment method already in place in the company, in addition to the utilisation of new technology within new or modified rolling stock.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-suspends-south-western-railway-strike/
 

infobleep

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I can imagine when 313s at Southern are replaced the rmt might do a deal that any new stock is guaranteed a guard for those former services regardless of who does the doors. They have unfinished business there after all...

Statement from RMT about SWR...
Through the talks process the company have now offered a guarantee of a guard on the South Western Railway services that have been in dispute. The company offer says: 1. South Western Railway confirm that on the introduction of any new or other modified rolling stock, each passenger train shall operate with a guard with safety critical competencies. Specific Safety Critical competencies shall be agreed by SWR and RMT. 2. All rolling stock train dispatch shall be subject to undertaking a safety risk assessment, on a station by station basis. This assessment will be completed with the involvement of company and trade union representatives utilising the agreed PTI assessment method already in place in the company, in addition to the utilisation of new technology within new or modified rolling stock.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-suspends-south-western-railway-strike/
Why could they just agree that sometime ago and save us the disruption of strikes?

I guess we'll never know what caused them only agree this at such a late stage.

Glad it's happened because I personally want trains with guards on them all the time.
 

WA_Driver

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“The framework is as follows:

1. South Western Railway confirm that on the introduction of any new or other modified rolling stock, each passenger train shall operate with a guard with safety critical competencies. Specific Safety Critical competencies shall be agreed by SWR and RMT.

2. All rolling stock train dispatch shall be subject to undertaking a safety risk assessment, on a station by station basis. This assessment will be completed with the involvement of company and trade union representatives utilising the agreed PTI assessment method already in place in the company, in addition to the utilisation of new technology within new or modified rolling stock.”

Just says “operate” doesn’t go into detail how? Is it still current working of Guards opening & closing doors?

Doesn’t detail if Guard operating panels will be fitted into new rolling stock?

All that will happen next is that SWR will go to ASLEF with the new pay deal involving Driver Operating Doors so effectively making guards into OBS
 

Kite159

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Looks like good news that the RMT have come to an agreement that the drivers can open the doors on the new stock.

Maybe it will end the situation where you have non commercial guards on the suburban network who in some cases are silent and only pops out to do the doors
 
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