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SWR: Nationalistion is not the answer

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TrainTube

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-to-be-nationalised.197990/

I don't think SWR should be nationalised, the problems are capacity and its something that won't be fixed under a different operator.

I'm not happy with SWR as it is, especially with the strikes, but the line itself needs upgrading.

LNER is a nationalised company, and I got routed via York today just to go to Doncaster from Leeds.

Nationalisation doesn't magically fix things.
 
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Robski

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I don't think SWR should be nationalised, the problems are capacity and its something that won't be fixed under a different operator. I'm not happy with SWR as it is, especially with the strikes, but the line itself needs upgrading. LNER is a nationalised company, and I got routed via York today just to go to Doncaster from Leeds. Nationalisation doesn't magically fix things.
The problem is management. Both MD's have been "militant" according to staff in regards to policy. If the operator does change, some of the management changes and the old attitudes go. This is possibly one of those rare cases where instating an OLR might actually make a significant difference.
 

quantinghome

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I don't think SWR should be nationalised, the problems are capacity and its something that won't be fixed under a different operator. I'm not happy with SWR as it is, especially with the strikes, but the line itself needs upgrading. LNER is a nationalised company, and I got routed via York today just to go to Doncaster from Leeds. Nationalisation doesn't magically fix things.

Of course nationalisation by itself doesn't 'magically fix things'. But franchising to private companies seems to be making things worse. It introduces problems of unrealistic bids, the expense of the bidding process to all parties, ability of the franchise to hand back the keys when things go wrong, loss of senior management experience when the franchisee changes, being locked into a franchising cycle which doesn't match the infrastructure spending cycle, short termism, lack of accountability and fundamentally no one actually being in charge of the railways. Franchising obviously isn't working. Nationalisation (or some other form of public ownership) is a necessary precursor to sorting out these issues.
 

The Ham

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Franchising obviously isn't working. Nationalisation (or some other form of public ownership) is a necessary precursor to sorting out these issues.

Whilst I agree that Franchising isn't currently working, is question whether taking the risk of significant changes so that the system is totally within the control of the DfT woods be a wise one.

There's a lot of other privatised options you could look at which may solve the problem a lot better, which may result in a lower risk.
 

bb21

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Whilst I agree that Franchising isn't currently working, is question whether taking the risk of significant changes so that the system is totally within the control of the DfT woods be a wise one.

I can tell you the answer is almost a certain "no".

Much of the problems stemmed from the powers up the government not knowing the difference between fantasy and reality, pandering to short-term political needs rather than long-term strategic requirements.

Having dealt with sufficient DfT personnel I am confident that the bright and sensible tend not to rise to the top so they are few and far in between in positions that matter to those really important decisions.
 

jayah

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The problem is management. Both MD's have been "militant" according to staff in regards to policy. If the operator does change, some of the management changes and the old attitudes go. This is possibly one of those rare cases where instating an OLR might actually make a significant difference.
SWT and SWR have had numerous strikes in its various guises under various management. Similarly the fact multiple TOCs under multiple owning groups have had similar probably suggests this isnt that management who are militant.

Even LUL outside of rail franchising have regular ballots for strikes on various lines, under different management and even under different Mayors of different political colours.

The common denominator is ONE particular trade union and their ability to shut down something important by calling a strike. Where both of those conditions exist we see regular threats, ballots and actual strikes.
 

quantinghome

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Whilst I agree that Franchising isn't currently working, is question whether taking the risk of significant changes so that the system is totally within the control of the DfT woods be a wise one.

There's a lot of other privatised options you could look at which may solve the problem a lot better, which may result in a lower risk.

One of the (many) bizarre things about the current 'privatised' rail system is the DfT have far more day to day control over rail services than they ever did during the BR era. This is not a good thing as I don't think the DfT are fit for purpose.

If I may reuse your words, there's a lot of other public ownership options you could look at which may solve the problem a lot better. A concession system under control of local government, such as TfL rail and Merseyrail would be well suited for travel to work areas in major conurbations. On intercity services LNER have shown they can run a reasonable rail service and rolled out new trains with a far greater degree of competence than their private counterparts at Transpennine and Northern.

We are never going to have system free of government interference for the simply reason that significant state subsidy will always be required to run the railways. But what we do need is a system where the nuts and bolts of the railway are run by railwaymen not civil servants.
 

Meerkat

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We are never going to have system free of government interference for the simply reason that significant state subsidy will always be required to run the railways
I keep coming back to the fact that roads are almost totally state subsidised, but then I get a bit confused about the relevance of this to what could be done.
Do we need a mindset change where providing a basic railway infrastructure is viewed as standard state provision as per roads, rather than ‘subsidised’? Then social rail services would need far less subsidy in themselves (what is the marginal track maintenance cost of running trains over maintaining an unused railway?). You then auction off packages of mainline paths (either as fixed payments or profit share) and your fares regulation decides how the state balances getting a return vs external benefits of rail services (less congestion etc)
 

tbtc

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On intercity services LNER have shown they can run a reasonable rail service

Part of the problem I have with the "nationalisation" argument (e.g. in respect of SWR) is that the only benchmark seems to be East Coast/ LNER...

...but East Coast and LNER didn't actually have a "benchmark" of their own for us to compare them to.

NXEC and VTEC both promised certain things in their franchise bids, NXEC and VTEC could both therefore be criticised for failing to deliver those improvements or praised for meeting targets - but East Coast/ LNER are free of any responsibility to deliver a certain level of premium to the Treasury or meeting commitments in a bid.

As an example, NXEC promised to run regular services to Lincoln (and took on 180s to provide it) - if NXEC hadn't met this commitment then there'd have been serious questions asked - East Coast took over and quietly dropped it because there was no longer a franchise and therefore no longer any commitments.

The problem is that people who are pro-nationalisation will look at LNER (and, previously, East Coast) and say that they are delivering a good level of service but without any proper targets to measure them against - so the glass may be half full or half empty and people will decide whether things look better/worse depending on their politics.
 

infobleep

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Whilst I'm not against not for profit operators, in terms of train running alone, I don't think nationalisation would make a difference

Today there was congestion. I'm sure there are many things causing the congestion but that won't go away just because it's nationalised.

If nationalisation is required because SWR aren't making enough money and the congestion is being caused by too many passengers using the trains, what is causing the short fall in profits?

Surely lots of people should help profits. I appreciate it's more complicated than that
 

The Ham

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We are never going to have system free of government interference for the simply reason that significant state subsidy will always be re

We've got fairly close to the day to day running of the railway being subsidy free a could of times. The large account of subsidy is mostly down to the enhancements being made to the network (which isn't too dissimilar to the road building which happens).

If there was less state interference (with the state accepting that they would have to fund, say, up to £300 million a year for the day to day running) then chances are that they wouldn't actually have to put in that much money as the companies would look at what they could do to limit their late payments (such as fewer longer trains and/or running less frequent direct services but more frequent connecting services and/or funding small infrastructure changes to remove problems from the network).

They would also look at things like, could we fund up to 10 miles of electrification to bring a new town onto the rail network which otherwise could mostly not need any extra rolling stock (services may get turned back early during disruption).

There's lots which could be done, but the problem is that the franchise system isn't flexible enough as it's too controlled by the government. Nationalising it would likely make this worse not better.

There would still need to be a need for payments to be made from "profitable" sections of the network to fund other sections, however if a good service was provided (i.e. not short trains, not infrequent trains, few strikes, etc.) then chances are the profitable via would be more profitable and the bits that need subsidies would need less subsidy.

I think that there should be a baseline service with franchises won or lost on the quality of the extra bits that they would add. Whilst there would be a need for an estimate of "earnings" for the DfT, this would only make up part of the choice and if the extra bits did better than expected then the extra profits would be split between the DfT and the company.

If suggest that the split would favour the company to begin with but as the profits increased the split shifted more towards the DfT.

As an example of a company was expected to earn £100 million of profits (with an agreed split of that amount) then anything extra could be split as follows:
- the first £15 million would be 75:25 to the company
- the next £35 million would be 50:50
- the next £50 million being 25:75 to the DfT
- anything over £100 million of extra income would be 15:85 to the DfT

Obviously it would be in the company's interest to keep on making more money, even though they'll have less incentive the more money that they make. Whilst they would probably limit the amount of work that they did to try and earn more than a certain amount they aren't going to go out of their way to not earn anything extra.

There should also be measures to withdraw things so long as the company could justify that they were making the service better overall.

For instance, taking an example from GWR, removing through trains to London from the Henley Branch but providing more longer trains on the mainline and increasing the frequency on the branch line. In doing so the risk of a long delay due to a missed connection is reduced but any losses from any reduction in through travel is offset by the fact that train services are more reliable and more frequent.

If your delay from missing the "perfect" connection is 15 minutes then of is an hour long journey it's not going to be that big a deal, especially if you have a choice of more trains to get to that connection point.

As an example you need to be at work at 9am it takes an hour and the train is direct, however there's only one train an hour and it gets you to work for 8:30, the next service didn't get you to work until 9:30. There's then a time table change which requires a change of trains, you know have the choice of the 7:30 train which gets you there at 8:40 or the 7:45 which gets you there at 8:55 and a train at 8:00 which gets you to work at 9:10.

You can then aim to get the 7:45, safe in the knowledge that if your 10 minutes late a few times then so be it. However since will still aim for the 7:30 knowing that things could go quite wrong and you'll still only be 10 minutes late. Compare this with the original 7:30 train where of it was cancelled you'll be 30 minutes late. (Yes I know it's unlikely to go from hourly to every 15 minutes, but it would be the same whatever the increase in frequency was, although the benefits are less pronounced).

You may even find that if there was a problem on the branch line that you could fairly easily get to the main line by getting a lift with someone else or a fairly short taxi trip.

However that's only part of the story, as the branch line is self contained anyone heading to the junction town would find that they were less prone to delays further away. As such the local passenger numbers would also likely increase.
 
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