SWR Strike - Do I really have to accept 2.5 hour delay on pre-booked ticket

[joncombe]

I booked an Advance Ticket from Woking to Bath Spa for the 29th December 2019 departing at 09:47 and arriving at Bath at 11:56. This was booked on the 3rd November 2019, before any strike action had been announced. This is a direct service.

SWR have now published the strike timetable for Sunday 29th December and it is appalling, far worse than any other "strike Sunday". The first train from Woking to Salisbury is at 11:47 arriving at 12:46. Then from Salisbury to Bath departing at 13:25 and arriving 14:27.

This would get me to Salisbury almost exactly 2 and a half hours after I should have got there. (and I have my doubts it won't be so overcrowded I won't actually be able to board it).

Worse, reading the FAQ it says under the heading "Can I use my ticket on other train operators and local bus routes?" For GWR it only lists validity on the services to Bath via Salisbury not via Reading.

In addition under the heading "Will Delay Repay still apply to my journey?" it suggests SWR only pay delay repay against the amended timetable.

This all points to havin g to accept a 2.5 hour delay on my journey with no recourse other than to cancel my ticket and ask for a refund.

Is that really correct?

The service on this Sunday is greately reduced from usual on a Sunday during the strikes. The earliest arrival into London Waterloo from Woking seems to be around 11:30am many hours later than usual too.

I would like to travel to Bath via Reading instead. Given there seem no other services to Basingstoke from Woking it looks like the best route is a rail replacement bus to Guildford, GWR Guildford to Reading and GWR Reading to Bath. But reading the FAQ this isn't a route on which there is ticket acceptance?

Just to add to the confusion on the timetable link for the strikes it shows under the route from London to Exeter, Salisbury and Bath that for trains to Bath

"We won't run any trains on this route. Services will also not run between Yeovil Junction and Westbury via Frome. You should use Great Western Railway trains instead. You can use your ticket - including advance tickets - at no extra cost."

This makes no mention of what routes you can use - so perhaps it is valid via Reading.

Any advise please?

I also cannot believe it is correct that SWR only pay delay repay on the amended timetable. I thought that if I booked prior to the strike being announced (as I did) this should be paid against the booked itinary (which is printed on the ticket). Am I right? If so any tips on getting SWR to accept this?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This all points to havin g to accept a 2.5 hour delay on my journey with no recourse other than to cancel my ticket and ask for a refund.

Is that really correct?

It's not correct, but SWR would like you to believe it is. But if SWR didn't lie about the entitlement of passengers in your situation to delay compensation then they'd have to pay out more money. That doesn't suit them.

I thought that if I booked prior to the strike being announced (as I did) this should be paid against the booked itinary (which is printed on the ticket).

It indeed is. Your absolute, unarguable entitlement is to compensation of 50% of the value of your ticket (assuming you end up delayed by 60+ minutes). This is your right under the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which has no exemption to paying compensation if the timetable is changed post-purchase.

Your arguable entitlement is to compensation of 100% of the value of your ticket under SWR's Passenger Charter (assuming you end up arriving 60+ minutes late). However SWR claim that they can change the timetable post-purchase and thereby, without notifying you of the new times or the fact the timetable has even changed, unilaterally remove your entitlement to compensation. This is clearly incompatible with a number of parts of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 but they will of course claim it is all fine and dandy!

If so any tips on getting SWR to accept this?

Take them to Court. It's probably the only way you will see any recourse, unfortunately. I mean, go through all the motions of claiming delay compensation and appealing it - but expect to have to take it to Court if you want to see your entitlement paid out.

It's not expensive (the claim fee is £25 for a claim of the likely value of your entitlement, and you will have this added to any judgment if/when you win) but it's unacceptable that passengers have to resort to this to get what they're entitled to.

 

[43096]

It indeed is. Your absolute, unarguable entitlement is to compensation of 50% of the value of your ticket (assuming you end up delayed by 60+ minutes). This is your right under the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which has no exemption to paying compensation if the timetable is changed post-purchase.

Your arguable entitlement is to compensation of 100% of the value of your ticket under SWR's Passenger Charter (assuming you end up arriving 60+ minutes late). However SWR claim that they can change the timetable post-purchase and thereby, without notifying you of the new times or the fact the timetable has even changed, unilaterally remove your entitlement to compensation. This is clearly incompatible with a number of parts of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 but they will of course claim it is all fine and dandy!

And the reason they do that, of course, is all those season ticket holders done over by the strike who bought their tickets months before the strike was announced.

SWR really ought to be announcing compensation to season ticket holders for the strike days - I would suggest around 25% of the ticket value for the period due to the enormous disruption caused. SWR have made a significant saving in the period by not paying their guards, of course! They won't do it - SWR have shown themselves from day one as being a company only interested in screwing over anyone and everyone - including their regular passengers.

 

[infobleep]

And the reason they do that, of course, is all those season ticket holders done over by the strike who bought their tickets months before the strike was announced.

SWR really ought to be announcing compensation to season ticket holders for the strike days - I would suggest around 25% of the ticket value for the period due to the enormous disruption caused. SWR have made a significant saving in the period by not paying their guards, of course! They won't do it - SWR have shown themselves from day one as being a company only interested in screwing over anyone and everyone - including their regular passengers.

Season ticket holders don't have an itinary though, unlike someone holding an advanced purchase ticket.

I'd recommend joncombe asking @sw_help on Twitter if travel via Reading is allowed. Not much point in asking them about compensation though as they are not customer service staff, so would only be able to repeat the standard reply they have been asked to repeat. This being compensation is only due on the revised timetable. I disagrees with this.

 

[43096]

Season ticket holders don't have an itinary though, unlike someone holding an advanced purchase ticket.

True, but the ticket is bought against an advertised service (the timetable). If that service is being substantially not delivered (~50%) in the strike, then anywhere else you’d be in to consumer law. But not on the railway, it seems, as it largely treats its customers with contempt.

 

[infobleep]

True, but the ticket is bought against an advertised service (the timetable). If that service is being substantially not delivered (~50%) in the strike, then anywhere else you’d be in to consumer law. But not on the railway, it seems, as it largely treats its customers with contempt.

Is there a consumer law that applies in the case of season ticket holders? I know you might like one but is there one?

 

[island]

Depends how much you squint whilst reading the Consumer Rights Act.

 

[joncombe]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-29-12-morning-timetable.197425/#post-4355240

A whole raft of morning trains seem to have disappeared. There is *nothing* going west of Woking for example, until nearly midday.

I have an Advance ticket on a train that is not running and now told the 1st train I can use is 2 hours later than the one printed on the ticket. I thought Advance tickets were not meant to be sold until engineering work was finalised?

 

[yorkie]

I thought Advance tickets were not meant to be sold until engineering work was finalised?

Not possible to 'enforce' and unforseen changes can occur.

Your options are to either:
- not use the ticket & claim full refund (from retailer); or
- travel on next available trains and claim Delay Repay (from SWR)

 

[joncombe]

Not possible to 'enforce' and unforseen changes can occur.

Is it so hard for them to email those that have booked effected journeys when booking through their own website? Seems pretty poor to me to have your journey delayed by 2.5 hours by engineering work and not even be told about it. What's the point of selling tickets that "are only valid on the specified train" if the specified train doesn't run?

 

[yorkie]

In addition under the heading "Will Delay Repay still apply to my journey?" it suggests SWR only pay delay repay against the amended timetable.

That would be unlawful in my opinion; Delay Repay applies to the contracted journey.

If they refuse a valid claim you can take them to the Rail Ombudsman.

There are other options such as making a small claim from SWR. Did you book with a credit card? If so there is the possibility of a chargeback too.

This all points to havin g to accept a 2.5 hour delay on my journey with no recourse other than to cancel my ticket and ask for a refund.

Is that really correct?

You can either get a refund and not use the ticket, or you can claim Delay Repay, and take matters to the highest possible level to get it.

 

[joncombe]

Thanks Yorkie for merging these posts, I apologise for creating work for you.

It seems there are two things at play here.

The first is the strike, which removed all the SWR trains to Bristol. However a service was still planned to operate in the morning from Waterloo to Salisbury (and various other destinations) which all seems to have disappeared now. That leaves pretty much nothing on the main lines west from Woking until nearly midday as the planned trains seem to have been removed with no replacement buses operating (and without any communication with passengers).

The reply I had from SWR via Twitter is they won't permit using this ticket via Reading which also seems very poor.

 

[Haywain]

The reply I had from SWR via Twitter is they won't permit using this ticket via Reading which also seems very poor.

If you were after using GWR from Reading it may well be that they would not agree to it as they have a reduced service themselves tomorrow.

 

[joncombe]

That would be unlawful in my opinion; Delay Repay applies to the contracted journey.

If they refuse a valid claim you can take them to the Rail Ombudsman.

There are other options such as making a small claim from SWR. Did you book with a credit card? If so there is the possibility of a chargeback too.

You can either get a refund and not use the ticket, or you can claim Delay Repay, and take matters to the highest possible level to get it.

Unsurprisingly and exactly as you predicted SWR are now denying delay repay saying they will only pay it against the amended timetable that was put in place after I booked the ticket. Do you have any advise or anything I quote to them in my reply.

Ultimately if they don't pay I'll probably raise it with my card company (Amex) who usually have no issue refunding the costs in such situations, but I want to wait until I can get not further with SWR first.

 

[Bensonby]

Take it to the ombudsman. SWR are taking the proverbial.

 

[joncombe]

Take it to the ombudsman. SWR are taking the proverbial.

Their website too for delay repay makes it clear they will only pay compensation on the revised timetable. https://delayrepay.southwesternrailway.com/

Which in my case was only released 2 days before anyway.

 

[joncombe]

I have requested SWR either provide a deadlock letter or refund the ticket. Unfortunately otherwise it's not possible to raise it with the Omudsman until 40 working days have passed. I did include reference to this from Transport Focus https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/advice-and-complaints/faq/consumer-rights-act-2015-rail/ which is specific to the rail industry and makes it clear that "information provided to a consumer before making a purchase, whether oral or in writing, is binding where the consumer relies on it"

I would have thought this applies to a timetable presented when booking a ticket and therefore by selecting a ticket valid on a specific train I'm relying on that information.

 

[yorkie]

I have requested SWR either provide a deadlock letter or refund the ticket. Unfortunately otherwise it's not possible to raise it with the Omudsman until 40 working days have passed. I did include reference to this from Transport Focus https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/advice-and-complaints/faq/consumer-rights-act-2015-rail/ which is specific to the rail industry and makes it clear that "information provided to a consumer before making a purchase, whether oral or in writing, is binding where the consumer relies on it"

I would have thought this applies to a timetable presented when booking a ticket and therefore by selecting a ticket valid on a specific train I'm relying on that information.

SWR are acting illegally in my opinion.

I suggest you also contact the ORR; specifically state that the booked times are contractual and that Delay Repay is also contractual and therefore a refusal by SWR to pay it is a consumer law breach. ORR are obligated to investigate potential breaches of consumer law.

Also, did you pay by credit card? If the ombudsman and ORR fail to get a good outcome, the next step would be to a credit card chargeback.

I am very keen to see a positive outcome for you in this matter as it is an important principle. I am keen to see SWR be made to regret their actions.

 

[joncombe]

SWR are acting illegally in my opinion.

I suggest you also contact the ORR; specifically state that the booked times are contractual and that Delay Repay is also contractual and therefore a refusal by SWR to pay it is a consumer law breach. ORR are obligated to investigate potential breaches of consumer law.

Thanks for your help with this Yorkie, it is much appreciated.

I have contacted ORR as you advise, so will post here any response.

[Also, did you pay by credit card? If the ombudsman and ORR fail to get a good outcome, the next step would be to a credit card chargeback.]

Yes I paid by credit card (American Express, specifically) so will also request a refund through them if needed. Past experience suggests they are usually very good and will refund it.

The transaction is in fact shown on my statement as

Transaction Date: Nov 3
Process Date: Nov 3
Transaction Details: DESKTOP SOUTHAMPTON

That's it! So I'd probably not have any issue disputing it given they have not even put South Western Railway (or even SWR) anywhere in the description. Perhaps another example of a lack of "care and skill" too!

I am very keen to see a positive outcome for you in this matter as it is an important principle. I am keen to see SWR be made to regret their actions.

Thank you very much! I am also keen SWR regret it!

 

[yorkie]

Excellent.

Let us know what happens next; leave the chargeback as a last resort for now but it's a useful option if all else fails.

 

[joncombe]

I had a further message from SWR today after I escalated my complaint. They are now claiming that the first train from Woking to Salisbury on this date (29th December 2019) which was at 11:47 was so late was because of strike action and not engineering work. Yet this was not the case on any other strike day timetable which had much earlier trains. Their staff also told me this was due to engineering works on Twitter (I still have the message) and I recall they did list work on the website for this day (though of course, it's no longer on the site now).

In addition they have still insisted Delay Repay is only based of the amended timetable and now referred me to their passengers charter which also has a statement they will only pay delay repay on the revised timetable.

However the revised timetable was only published for this date on the 27th December 2019. Had I known when I booked this ticket there would be a strike and/or engineering work I'd have booked a ticket routed via Reading. The fact the alternative timetable was not published until the 27th December meant all the cheap Advance tickets on the Reading route had gone anyway.

Where do I go from here? They still haven't confirmed this is the final response. Unfortunately I only raised a complaint at the time, and requested a refund under Delay Repay at the same time. They then told me I had to submit a delay repay claim which I've done and have advised this is "still under review". So I may still get a refund, however the response to my complaint means I still want to take this further whether they pay delay repay or not.

 

[yorkie]

Ask them for confirmation that you are in deadlock so you can refer them to the ombudsman.

Have you referred the consumer law breach to the ORR?

I'm not sure I trust the Ombudsman or ORR to act, so you may need to do a chargeback, but let's see what happens next.

SWR are going to act dishonourably of course; I expect nothing less from them.

 

[joncombe]

Also the National Rail conditions don't are what apply to tickets and they don't make any mention of any differences if an "amended timetable" is in force. So I think I can claim for delays under this anyway, since it was over 1 hour?

 

[joncombe]

Ask them for confirmation that you are in deadlock so you can refer them to the ombudsman.

Have you referred the consumer law breach to the ORR?

I have telephoned just now and asked for a deadlock letter and told one will be sent by email today. So I'll raise it with the Ombudsman as soon as I have.

I sent the ORR an email to the address on the ORR website yes. No reply as yet.

I'm not sure I trust the Ombudsman or ORR to act, so you may need to do a chargeback, but let's see what happens next.

SWR are going to act dishonourably of course; I expect nothing less from them.

Indeed. I have reviewed the National Rail conditions too and they make provision for compensation for delays after 1 hour no matter what the TOC charter says albeit this is 50% of the cost of the ticket. There is no mention of an amended timetable applying. THey can't simply override this or ignore conditions they don't like.

They also ignored my comments regarding the Consumer Rights Act (I sent them the link I posted from Transport Focus above). If at the time of booking the ticket I had known the first train on this route would not depart until 11:47 I'd have bought a ticket via Reading. So I took the decision to book with SWR based on the fact they showed their trains running and no warning about strikes etc. Their delay repay leaflet and form from the station also makes no mention that this does not apply if the timetable is amended. In any case an amended timetable was only published 2 days before on the 27th December. SWR also ran buses from Woking to Guildford from very early (about 6am) whilst there were no replacement buses to Basingstoke and the first train was at 11:47. So I really don't believe them that this was not to do with engineering works. In any case their staff the day before told me on twitter it was because of engineering works so either way someone at SWR has lied becuase I've got conflicting information from them!

In fact at no point have they even apologised for the disruption or the changes. THe only apology has been for the delay in replying!

Anyway I've quoted the reply in full below, other than the name has been removed. Any comments welcome on what to do next and what to say to the Omudsman.

Here is the reply.

Dear Mr .....,

Thank you for your further correspondence which has been escalated to me.

I understand that you have requested a refund of the ticket purchased to travel on 29 December 2019. When making a purchase especially of Advance tickets, it is always advisable to check before travel to see if the train is still running at the booked time. During the strike timetable, customers were advised that alternative times were available to them and that the restrictions had been relaxed. I can confirm that this was indeed the strike timetable, if it was due to engineering works, alternative road transport would have been provided.

In particular, it is in the terms and conditions that if the train that you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or significantly delayed, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train. The refund rights for this are that if you don’t travel you’re entitled to a full refund even though the ticket is a non-refundable one.

It is my understanding that you travelled and therefore a refund isn’t appropriate. However, I understand that you have made a delay repay claim, this is currently under review.

In respect of notifying our customers, as the strike was very well publicised we had advised all customers during this period to check before travel to see if they had been affected. email addresses are captured to provide a booking confirmation and aren’t used for any marketing purposes if you have selected this option when providing it.

The current arrangements for compensation are set out in our Passenger’s Charter (https://www.southwesternrailway.com/other/about-us/passengers-charter), This includes the following provision: Where an emergency timetable or amended timetable is in place, delays are calculated according to the revised timetable. An emergency or amended timetable may be introduced for many reasons, including but not limited to, for example, planned or emergency engineering work, industrial action and severe weather conditions.

In terms of compensation during the strike, Delay Repay is available to customers who have been delayed by 15 minutes or more against our amended timetable.

Thank you for contacting South Western Railway.

Kind regards,

....
Executive Contact & Complaints Team
South Western Railway

 

[Starmill]

SWR are plainly acting unlawfully by withholding a payment to you where you have been delayed by a period of time over the threshold set out in NRCoT, and you have made a claim in time with the necessary supporting evidence (a ticket).

Unfortunately, I would be quite surprised if the Rail Ombudsman will be persuaded of that fact. Still, we can live in hope.

The company are shameless and will use this nonsense excuse to try to get out of paying their bills. Don't let them.

All of the other chat you can kind of ignore. The matter is one of a bill which is due and that they're trying to avoid paying, and this isn't really a matter of customer service, it's just a bill. If you did this to them, you'd be labelled a criminal (and probably successfully prosecuted too).

 

[Starmill]

it is always advisable to check before travel to see if the train is still running at the booked time

the strike was very well publicised we had advised all customers during this period to check before travel to see if they had been affected

In particular, I find it very amusing that they think that telling you this changes anything with respect to payment of their debts.

 

[joncombe]

In particular, I find it very amusing that they think that telling you this changes anything with respect to payment of their debts.

I did complain that they did not contact me about the change to the timetable. They may be making reference to that in the response. However I think this might be important. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 does say what I have quote below. Specifically I think section 50 part 4. This makes it clear any change made after entering to the contract (which I did when I bought the ticket) "is not effective unless expressly agreed between the consumer and the trader".

This is an Advance ticket valid only on the specified train so I believe this to be part of the contract. Therefore if they claim there is an amended timetable available that changes the contract and they need to contact me and for me to agree to it. So I think the fact they didn't contact me might help my case.

50 Information about the trader or service to be binding
(1)Every contract to supply a service is to be treated as including as a term of the contract anything that is said or written to the consumer, by or on behalf of the trader, about the trader or the service, if—
(a)it is taken into account by the consumer when deciding to enter into the contract, or
(b)it is taken into account by the consumer when making any decision about the service after entering into the contract.
(2)Anything taken into account by the consumer as mentioned in subsection (1)(a) or (b) is subject to—
(a)anything that qualified it and was said or written to the consumer by the trader on the same occasion, and
(b)any change to it that has been expressly agreed between the consumer and the trader (before entering into the contract or later).
(3)Without prejudice to subsection (1), any information provided by the trader in accordance with regulation 9, 10 or 13 of the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (SI 2013/3134) is to be treated as included as a term of the contract.
(4)A change to any of the information mentioned in subsection (3), made before entering into the contract or later, is not effective unless expressly agreed between the consumer and the trader.
(5)See section 54 for a consumer’s rights if the trader is in breach of a term that this section requires to be treated as included in a contract.

 

[joncombe]

Unfortunately, I would be quite surprised if the Rail Ombudsman will be persuaded of that fact. Still, we can live in hope.

I have had the Deadlock letter from SWR and so have just raised it with the Ombudsman. I included the original booking confirmation email (which has the dates and times of the trains on it), the ticket and all the correspondence with SWR.

I pointed out I booked the ticket based on the time and price shown and if I had known the first service would actually get me there 2.5 hours later I would have booked with GWR via Reading. I also made the point I was aware of the Delay Repay scheme and believed this meant if I arrived 15 minutes or more later than the time on the booking I would be compensated. I included a scan of the Delay Repay leaflet i picked up from the station (which makes no mention of "amended timetables" or strikes).

I also pointed out all tickets are subject to the National Rail Conditions of carriage and made reference to the relevant sections (that make it clear the minimum compensation for a 1 hour delay is 50% of the cost of the ticket - SWR have offered nothing) and that it does not mention any amended timetables. I also that the statement on the SWR website about only paying compensation on the amended timetable has the dates of the strike and therefore would have been added after I booked the ticket.

Lastly I made reference to the above quote parts of the Consumer Rights Act that I quote in the previous post make it clear that information provided at the time of booking is part of the contract and cannot be later varied without agreement from both parties. Clearly I didn't agree and they didn't even contact me about it.

So hopeful I will get a favourable response.

I did provisionally call Amex who when I explained the situation seemed to think they would have no issue refunding me if I cannot resolve it with SWR and thanked me for trying to do this first.

 

[Starmill]

It certainly sounds like you've given the best case file over to the Ombudsman that you can.

It's likely that, if you've included everything they need, they'll write to the company first and consider their response, before proceeding to mediation.

There are several steps from here to go through before the case is assigned to an Ombudsman and you can ask for an adjudication.

In the past, they've written a number of adjudications which run contrary to the NRCoT. However there's some hope that with what sounds like your very clear and persistent explanation you will get th3 NRCoT applied, as a very minimum.

 

[joncombe]

An interesting twist. I originally contacted SWR as a complaint because I wanted to make further comments than the Delay Repay form and as part of my complaint requested a refund as I was delayed by over 2.5 hours. The first response I got is below on the 24th January.

Thank you for contacting us. I’m sorry that it’s taken so long to get back to you. We’ve been receiving more correspondence recently, and we haven’t been able to reply as quickly as we’d like. I realise that this may be too late to be of use, but in case the information is still useful, we were only given 5 weeks notice from the Union that they were going to be holding a month long strike. We did our best to run the best possible service given the situation. This was highly advertised and picked up by the media and all over the news and radio. During such a strike we operate a revised timetable and you may only claim compensation based on the amended timetable.

If you were delayed for at least 15 minutes on the amended timetable, you may be entitled to compensation through our Delay Repay scheme. Please use the compensation claim form at: https://delayrepay.southwesternrailway.com/

Alternatively, you can get a paper application form from any station, which can be returned to a staff member, or posted free of charge. Any claim must be made within 28 days of the date travelled.

So this very clearly implies they won't pay delay repay unless delayed against the amended timetable and even then only if I fill in the web form or the form at the station. Given they told me I had to do this in 28 days of travel (travel was on the 29th December and this email was on the 24th January) I had to do so right away so as not to be passed the 28 day deadline. So that is what I did and told them I had done so and provided the reference as part of the complaint. Hence the comment in their response (which I posted in post #24) where the response from SWR stated

It is my understanding that you travelled and therefore a refund isn’t appropriate. However, I understand that you have made a delay repay claim, this is currently under review.

Now I have received confirmation that the Delay Repay has been approved - despite the very strong message from SWR that they wouldn't pay Delay Repay except against the amended timetable.

I wonder if this might have been as a result of the fact I raised it with the Ombudsman.

This leaves me the question of what to do with the complaint to the Omudsman.

I think I still wish to pursue that on the basis all the correspondence from SWR up to now has been that they won't pay delay repay against the timetable in force when I booked the ticket, only the amended one. It was also SWR that made it clear they won't pay Delay Repay from a complaint and hence told me to fill in their Delay Repay web form in addition, which is what I have done. I've also not even had an apology for the actual delay (only their delay in responding, which likely only happened because I telephoned when it was well past the 10 working days stated in their initial reply).

So I think I should add a comment to my complaint with the Omudsman stating the Delay Repay has been approved but I still wish to peruse the complaint because this goes against all the information SWR have so far given me. I am aware I don't want to be getting a refund twice as that could lead me open to a claim of fraud. I wouldn't put it past SWR!