Taking complimentary newspaper from First Class without permission, theft or not?

[sheff1]

So are the complimentary catering items. All part of what a first class ticket entitles you too (and presumably factored into the first class fares). Next?

Whoosh !!

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

What if you leave the paper on the train, you have not permanently removed it from the TOC.

 

[Stigy]

You have bought the possessions in your house. So if I enter your house (through an open door to avoid us getting diverted onto any other offences of breaking and entering) I can take all the possessions and will not have stolen them. Yes?

You’d have committed burglary by entering somebody’s house to commit a theft. You’re not committing burglary by walking through First Class and taking a complimentary newspaper. I see what you’re getting at, but your logic is flawed (unless I’m missing something?).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You’d have committed burglary by entering somebody’s house to commit a theft. You’re not committing burglary by walking through First Class and taking a complimentary newspaper. I see what you’re getting at, but your logic is flawed (unless I’m missing something?).

Yes. The flaw in PR1Berske's logic which I was taking to absurd length.

 

[sprunt]

If you want the status of leaving a First Class door, then pay for it.

Nobody wants that status. It isn't an actual thing.

 

[Stigy]

Yes. The flaw in PR1Berske's logic which I was taking to absurd length.

If I go to a hotel and take the complimentary shampoo, am I stealing it if I’m bald?

 

[VT 390]

Nobody wants that status. It isn't an actual thing.

Although a lot of the time the 1st class doors are booked to be closest to the entrance/exit at London terminal stations so it can be quicker to exit the station as you can be the first to get out, but it is usually not much of an advantage worth paying extra for, but if you are on a standard ticket then you should not stay in 1st class for any reason unless you have permission to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if you leave the paper on the train, you have not permanently removed it from the TOC.

Yes, that would probably cause a theft charge to fail. But if you took it with you, or placed it somewhere where the TOC could not reasonably get it back (i.e. the bin), that would I reckon satisfy the "permanently deprive" bit.

 

[ExRes]

I guess the statute of limitations has expired on the terrible crime of newspaper nicking, shame it's too late now to get the ones who were having it away with the Evening Standard, the Times and the Daily Mail, yes even the Daily Mail , from MML trains from back in the early 2000s, I reckon it must be a hereditary thing .........

 

[bionic]

If you want the status of leaving a First Class door, then pay for it.

Status? Really?

As in: "Oooh, look at that person who just got out of a first class door... I really respect their status".

I'm sorry, but what kind of person would defer a superior status on someone just because they happened to be in first class? This isn't the Victorian era. Status indeed!

 

[al78]

Status? Really?

As in: "Oooh, look at that person who just got out of a first class door... I really respect their status".

I'm sorry, but what kind of person would defer a superior status on someone just because they happened to be in first class? This isn't the Victorian era. Status indeed!

Society changes a lot faster than some peoples attitudes. That is why you occasionally run into people that, when they talk, sound like they still live in the pre-WWII era.

 

[trainophile]

Society changes a lot faster than some peoples attitudes. That is why you occasionally run into people that, when they talk, sound like they still live in the pre-WWII era.

Like people who take Waitrose shopping bags to Aldi?

 

[jon0844]

The hotel shampoo analogy was more a tongue in cheek comment directly responding to the burglary analogy to be honest.

If the analogy is to work at all, it might be to walk into a hotel and walk around corridors taking the free items from the housekeeping trolley. Can't be theft if they're given out freely to people staying in the hotel can it?

 

[nanstallon]

They were paid for by the TOC. The TOC owns them. The TOC has decided it wishes to give them to those holding First Class tickets. If you take one not holding a First Class ticket, you have taken it without consent without intention to return it[1]. You have stolen it.

[1] This second requirement is why we have a specific charge of TWOC (taking without consent) for a motor vehicle, because someone could potentially get out of a theft charge with "but I just borrowed it".

So, if I pick up a complimentary newspaper, to read in my Standard class seat, and return it the rack in First class as I walk through to leave the train at my destination, am I still a thief trembling in fear of getting my collar felt?

 

[trainophile]

So, if I pick up a complimentary newspaper, to read in my Standard class seat, and return it the rack in First class as I walk through to leave the train at my destination, am I still a thief trembling in fear of getting my collar felt?

Try it in Tesco, read it in the cafe and replace it as you leave the store.

 

[nanstallon]

Try it in Tesco, read it in the cafe and replace it as you leave the store.

They probably wouldn't like it, but would i have committed a criminal offence? Probably get banned from Tescos but doubtb whether I could be prosecuted.

 

[mmh]

Try it in Tesco, read it in the cafe and replace it as you leave the store.

There speaks someone who's never been in a proper cafe, or pub, where papers are provided for communal use.

I'm pretty sure the cafe in my local Tesco has a paper rack.

 

[trainophile]

There speaks someone who's never been in a proper cafe, or pub, where papers are provided for communal use.

I'm pretty sure the cafe in my local Tesco has a paper rack.

Oh yes, I think Waitrose do too. But you borrow the ones provided, not help yourself from the stack in the shopping area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There speaks someone who's never been in a proper cafe, or pub, where papers are provided for communal use.

I'm pretty sure the cafe in my local Tesco has a paper rack.

Clearly it's fine to loan a paper where it is provided to you expressly for that purpose and where there are no other conditions on the eligibility to that purpose, e.g. holding a First Class ticket.

 

[tom73]

If free gear is exclusively for First Class passengers, it is surely the responsibility of the catering crew to ensure it remains so.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If free gear is exclusively for First Class passengers, it is surely the responsibility of the catering crew to ensure it remains so.

No... while everyone should take reasonable care of their possessions, the onus is on potential offenders not to give in to temptation. If someone picks your pocket, who is at fault? You for not taking the responsibility of securing your pocket, or the thief for reaching in and taking your wallet?

 

[PR1Berske]

No... while everyone should take reasonable care of their possessions, the onus is on potential offenders not to give in to temptation. If someone picks your pocket, who is at fault? You for not taking the responsibility of securing your pocket, or the thief for reaching in and taking your wallet?

The thief has committed a crime.

 

[Meerkat]

The papers are free! They will be thrown away and have no resale value

Lots of supermarket food is thrown away with no resale value, can we just take that?

 

[al78]

No... while everyone should take reasonable care of their possessions, the onus is on potential offenders not to give in to temptation. If someone picks your pocket, who is at fault? You for not taking the responsibility of securing your pocket, or the thief for reaching in and taking your wallet?

I cannot control other people. I can control my own actions, so I take reasonable measures to reduce the risk of my posessions getting stolen. That it also what insurance companies require in order for you to have a payout in the worst case scenario.

When I am cycling on the road, if a driver crashes into me because they didn't yield when I had priority, it is the drivers fault, and they would be prosecuted for careless driving. However, when I do cycle on the road, I won't stubbornly insist on priority if someone driving a motor vehicle doesn't look like they are going to give way. I cannot stop drivers of motor vehicles putting me in danger, I can take measures to minimise getting hit. Going round expecting everyone to always do the right thing is a recipe for disaster.

 

[trainophile]

The papers are free! They will be thrown away and have no resale value

That's the same mentality as saying "the train is going there anyway so why should I buy a ticket?".

 

[al78]

That's the same mentality as saying "the train is going there anyway so why should I buy a ticket?".

That one is easier to counter.

This seems to be coming down to a debate over externalised costs (do they exist or not) and so-called victimless crime. There is a moral issue as well, even if there is no net cost to anyone to take a newspaper intended for a dfferent group, it still seems wrong therefore you shouldn't do it. One of the problems of claiming no net cost therefore what's the problem, is that sometimes, externalised costs are not visible to the perpetrator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This seems to be coming down to a debate over externalised costs (do they exist or not) and so-called victimless crime. There is a moral issue as well, even if there is no net cost to anyone to take a newspaper intended for a dfferent group, it still seems wrong therefore you shouldn't do it. One of the problems of claiming no net cost therefore what's the problem, is that sometimes, externalised costs are not visible to the perpetrator.

I think to me it comes down to that if you take something - anything - that isn't yours, and isn't intended for you, then you've stolen it. It doesn't matter what it was worth, all that matters is whether the original owner intended you to have it or not. It's clear that things put out for taking in First Class are not intended for Standard passengers, therefore it's theft.

Now, if you were to steal a leaf off one of my trees I doubt I would pursue that. But that doesn't stop it being theft.

 

[Meerkat]

even if there is no net cost to anyone to take a newspaper intended for a dfferent group

There is a net cost for the newspapers. They are there for first class customers. If others are taking them then the TOC need to buy more to have enough.

 

[trainophile]

And if people help themselves early in the day there aren't enough left for people travelling later.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if people help themselves early in the day there aren't enough left for people travelling later.

Very true, though even that doesn't matter. All that matters is that they are intended for First Class passengers, and this is obvious by virtue of them being placed in First Class. Therefore anyone else taking one is a thief.