Teacher wants class to travel on child tickets

[pjnathanail]

My school is planning a trip to London for 15-20 pupils. The choice is between coach and train, and the train is significantly more expensive.

In order to reduce this cost, a decision has been taken by the teacher leading the trip to issue the pupils (age 16 and 17) with child tickets for the trip.

Am I correct in thinking the responsibility for using these tickets illegally lies with the pupils, and as such I should advise my friends not to accept a child ticket?

 

[ModernRailways]

My school is planning a trip to London for 15-20 pupils. The choice is between coach and train, and the train is significantly more expensive.

In order to reduce this cost, a decision has been taken by the teacher leading the trip to issue the pupils (age 16 and 17) with child tickets for the trip.

Am I correct in thinking the responsibility for using these tickets illegally lies with the pupils, and as such I should advise my friends not to accept a child ticket?

It does indeed lie with the actual person holding the ticket.

When I went to London a few years back (3 or 4 maybe?) I bought myself and my friend a ticket. He had turned 16 a few months earlier but told me to buy him a child ticket - I wasn't sure how old he was. I gave him his ticket and on the train he got caught because he knew the guard. Had to pay something like £200 for a full anytime single. He didn't learn though as that same weekend he was fined £80 by TfL for using a child ticket.

He tried to blame it on me, but as I told the guard as far as I was aware he was allowed to use the child ticket. The guard said 'It doesn't matter if he bought it or not. You are the one travelling using it, you should have refused to accept it.'

I'm not sure where you are travelling to/from but most TOCs if you ring them will allow you to get it cheaper if you buy a class ticket - it's only available over the phone IIRC

 

[maniacmartin]

Yes the passenger would be liable.

The teacher should have telephoned the TOC before purchsaing the tickets, as some TOCs offer big discounts for large groups travelling together.

 

[TheEdge]

Wow. Just wow.

So a teacher, a person trusted by the community to install decent values in the children of this country, is suggesting their pupils travel on tickets they know to be illegal and invalid. And then by their negligence is shifting liability onto their pupils.

 

[Chapeltom]

My school is planning a trip to London for 15-20 pupils. The choice is between coach and train, and the train is significantly more expensive.

In order to reduce this cost, a decision has been taken by the teacher leading the trip to issue the pupils (age 16 and 17) with child tickets for the trip.

Am I correct in thinking the responsibility for using these tickets illegally lies with the pupils, and as such I should advise my friends not to accept a child ticket?

I cannot quite believe what I have just read, totally irresponsible decision by the school teacher. It is almost leading the pupils into a trap, because if the guard sees they are a party and sees one isn't 15, he/she will probably suspect none of them qualify for child tickets. The teacher would be wholly in the wrong from my point of view but we know it's the ticket holder's responsibility to have a valid ticket.

I would not want to be in their predicament at all. The teacher is treading a very fine line here, it seems seriously unprofessional at best.

 

[yorkie]

In order to reduce this cost, a decision has been taken by the teacher ...

I am sure if you contact a relevant senior teacher at the school (e.g. head of department, deputy head or even the head) the decision will be taken out of their hands

They should contact the Group Travel department of the relevant Train Company and they may be able to obtain a discount. In some cases 16/17 year olds can be treated as 'children', and LU do something like that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This matter should be immediately reported to the head teacher of the school in question, who then should use their own authority to deal with the matter....and with the teacher in question.

 

[Chapeltom]

This matter should be immediately reported to the head teacher of the school in question, who then should use their own authority to deal with the matter....and with the teacher in question.

I don't think I could agree more. The decision should at taken out the teachers hands and disciplined for suggesting such an absurd idea.

 

[gordonthemoron]

this does not surprise me in the least as I know several teachers who seem to think rules don't apply to them

 

[PaulHarding150]

this does not surprise me in the least as I know several people who seem to think rules don't apply to them

Fixed that for you.

 

[Squaddie]

My school is planning a trip to London for 15-20 pupils. The choice is between coach and train, and the train is significantly more expensive.

In order to reduce this cost, a decision has been taken by the teacher leading the trip to issue the pupils (age 16 and 17) with child tickets for the trip.

Am I correct in thinking the responsibility for using these tickets illegally lies with the pupils, and as such I should advise my friends not to accept a child ticket?

The cost could be reduced further by not buying tickets at all for some of the children - they could hide in the toilets, or in the luggage spaces between seats.

I'd be tempted to report this to the TOC, rather than the head teacher, and let them all be done for attempting to defraud the railway.

 

[185]

My school is planning a trip to London for 15-20 pupils. The choice is between coach and train, and the train is significantly more expensive.

In order to reduce this cost, a decision has been taken by the teacher leading the trip to issue the pupils (age 16 and 17) with child tickets for the trip.

Am I correct in thinking the responsibility for using these tickets illegally lies with the pupils, and as such I should advise my friends not to accept a child ticket?

Well he's failed his teacher MOT that Labour want to bring in....

Teacher, sit in the corner. Write - 'I must not encourage fraud', 1000 times. What a plonker :P

 

[jkdd77]

I completely agree with the overwhelming view that the teacher is acting illegally, that the pupils ought not to accept such a child ticket, and that the teacher ought to be reported for "re-training".

That said, I remember that, when I travelled by train with my sixth-form college many years ago, the teacher had a single ticket to cover all the travellers (presumably as a result of prior arrangement/ group booking). I never physically saw the teacher's group ticket, and, in my view, it was reasonable of me to assume that the ticket was valid.

I imagine that the pupils may well make a similar assumption; i.e. "my school has arranged it so it must be valid", which is not wholly unreasonable, and prosecuting the young people for fraud in this specific circumstance would not be in the broader public interest.

As yorkie says, it is possible that some TOCs may make special arrangements for young people over 16 to be charged a 'child' fare, (as with F & F discounted tickets in certain circumstances, and some 'Scholars' tickets), but obviously this would not be the case unless expressly authorised by the TOC(s) concerned.

Indeed, there is a related discussion to be had about whether it is reasonable for young people over 16, and even pupils over 18, to be perceived and treated as small children by their schools (e.g. requiring parental consent for legal adults) long past the age at which this is objectively necessary, but this would be off-topic.

 

[kieron]

I'd consider discussing this with the teacher first, as the school's initial response might be to cancel the trip this teacher organised, something pjnathanail presumably doesn't wish to happen.

 

[maniacmartin]

Perhaps the teacher genuinely believed that all under 18s are entitled to use child tickets?

 

[222007]

Judging by the location of the OP i know the TOC who operate services to london operate a penalty fare scheme so each pupil not of child age could be penalty fared or worse reported for travel fraud

 

[Class172]

I would be surprised that the teacher would have brought those tickets, not knowing of the potential consequences. As others had said, many TOCs will offer either group discounts or "scholar" tickets if arrangements are made — I am of adult age yet do not pay the full fare between Droitwich and Worcester for a season since LM offer a discounted scholar season (I'm not sure how much the discount is).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd be tempted to report this to the TOC, rather than the head teacher, and let them all be done for attempting to defraud the railway.

As the forum member who was the one who suggested the head teacher should be involved, I said that as the head teacher is ultimately responsible for all matters school-related, as this group visit would appear to be.

Other forum members have made it perfectly clear that the ticket-holders (students) will all be held liable for holding child tickets that they are not entitled to, so it would be the head teacher who would have to inform each and every parent of the liability that would ensue through the illegal action suggested by one of the school teaching staff to the pupils in his/her care.

 

[Oswyntail]

Is there any special state of legal responsibility involved, as the teacher was acting in loco parentis?

 

[planetf1]

Agree. The teacher is acting fraduently and condoning such behaviour.

Sent from my GT-N8013 using Tapatalk

 

[planetf1]

I'm a complete newbie here but has the teacher looked at proper advance group tickets? Or even walk up group 4 tickets

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[greatkingrat]

Looking at the Group Travel page in The Manual, it states that for groups of 10 or more, child rate extends from 5 to 17 years.

So it is quite possible that this poor teacher has done everything by the book and correctly been issued child tickets for the students. Does the OP actually know what specific tickets have been purchased?

 

[John @ home]

Perhaps the teacher genuinely believed that all under 18s are entitled to use child tickets?

The teacher is right in this belief.

Group Travel

Size of group

10 or more passengers.

Child rate travel extends from 5 to 17 years inclusive.

Passengers that form the group must travel together at all times.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Is it likely that the teacher actually knows that though? I certainly didn't, and I doubt anyone else I know does.

 

[supervalkoinen]

The teacher is right in this belief.

So, if this is correct, will we see an apology from any of the (approx) 10 posters who have condemned this teacher without knowing the facts.

I declare an interest, but, as it seems to be yet another bash-a-teacher week, any volunteers to do the job?

 

[ModernRailways]

Is it likely that the teacher actually knows that though? I certainly didn't, and I doubt anyone else I know does.

If she's booked a trip by train before then they may well have known. Also, being a teacher I imagine they will have looked into it with somebody superior who would know about such discounts.

Just need OP to reply...

 

[ECML180]

So, if this is correct, will we see an apology from any of the (approx) 10 posters who have condemned this teacher without knowing the facts.

Only due if the teacher was aware of it. They may have intended to book child tickets in the belief it was not valid.

 

[John @ home]

The teacher is right in this belief.

So, if this is correct, will we see an apology

I knew that the Child age for Group travel was 5 - 17 only because, in the 1960s, I had been involved in the organisation of an Edinburgh - Aberdeen excursion by rail for a group of school pupils supporting a team in the BBC TV series Top of the Form.

It is interesting to observe that the wording has not changed in over forty years.

 

[transmanche]

Only due if the teacher was aware of it. They may have intended to book child tickets in the belief it was not valid.

How very sad.

It's bad enough that some people were so quick to condemn the teacher (and in some cases in very harsh terms) without knowing if they were actually doing anything wrong. But for someone to refuse to apologise simply because they're not satisfied there was an absence of means rea... :roll:

 

[maniacmartin]

Perhaps due to this obscure entry in the manual not being widely known, they might be reported despite the tickets being valid