TfL contactless capping and extensions

[Be3G]

Hi all,

I have a query about capping and extension fares on contactless in London because I think I've been overcharged but TfL disagree so I'm starting to wonder if I'm going a bit mad.

A few days ago I made the following journeys:

Bus	£1.65
Bus	£0.00
Potters Bar to South Kensington	£7.80
South Kensington to St James Street	£2.90
Bus	£1.65
Bus	£0.00

The total charged to my contactless card was £14.00, i.e. the sum of the above. However, I was expecting to pay for a zone 1–3 cap (£9.00) plus one Potters Bar to zone 4 extension fare which I assume to be around £3.00 based on the cost of a Potters Bar to New Southgate rail journey.

I e-mailed TfL to query this but I just received the rather terse response of ‘You have been charged correctly for travel on this day’. So am I misunderstanding how caps and extension fares work?

 

[swt_passenger]

I expect @MikeWh the Oyster expert will be able to answer this so I‘ll tag him in…

 

[plugwash]

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that recent additions to oyster/contactless have been done on a "revenue neutral" basis. That is caps have been set at the same price as an outboundary travelcard and extension fares have been set such that the combination of a pair of extension fares with a 1-6 cap does not undercut the price of the outboundary travelcard.

This often results in extension fares being set significantly higher than fares for local journeys.

 

[JonathanH]

The worst thing about these extension fares is that they aren't published so you can't even make an informed decision on where to split the journey.

 

[miklcct]

Hi all,

I have a query about capping and extension fares on contactless in London because I think I've been overcharged but TfL disagree so I'm starting to wonder if I'm going a bit mad.

A few days ago I made the following journeys:

Bus	£1.65
Bus	£0.00
Potters Bar to South Kensington	£7.80
South Kensington to St James Street	£2.90
Bus	£1.65
Bus	£0.00

The total charged to my contactless card was £14.00, i.e. the sum of the above. However, I was expecting to pay for a zone 1–3 cap (£9.00) plus one Potters Bar to zone 4 extension fare which I assume to be around £3.00 based on the cost of a Potters Bar to New Southgate rail journey.

I e-mailed TfL to query this but I just received the rather terse response of ‘You have been charged correctly for travel on this day’. So am I misunderstanding how caps and extension fares work?

I believe the charge is correct.

The applicable cap for the whole day of travel after 09:30 is £16.60, which you haven't reached. If you take out the South Kensington to St James Street journey, you also won't reach the zone 1-3 cap as well.

In other words, there are no combination of journeys on the day which will make you hit the cap, so you are charged for each journey correctly.

If you, instead, got off the train at Alexandra Palace (zone 3), tapped out and then in again, you would have hit the zone 1-3 cap, and the journey from Potters Bar to Alexandra Palace would be £3.60, which would have saved you money.

The "extension fare" applies to Oyster season Travelcard holders. I don't think it applies to capping.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that recent additions to oyster/contactless have been done on a "revenue neutral" basis. That is caps have been set at the same price as an outboundary travelcard and extension fares have been set such that the combination of a pair of extension fares with a 1-6 cap does not undercut the price of the outboundary travelcard.

This often results in extension fares being set significantly higher than fares for local journeys.

The above is pretty much the correct answer. The below is also very true.

The worst thing about these extension fares is that they aren't published so you can't even make an informed decision on where to split the journey.

The applicable cap for the whole day of travel after 09:30 is £16.60, which you haven't reached. If you take out the South Kensington to St James Street journey, you also won't reach the zone 1-3 cap as well.

In other words, there are no combination of journeys on the day which will make you hit the cap, so you are charged for each journey correctly.

That is just gibberish I'm afraid. You can't take out a journey to fiddle caps.

If you, instead, got off the train at Alexandra Palace (zone 3), tapped out and then in again, you would have hit the zone 1-3 cap, and the journey from Potters Bar to Alexandra Palace would be £3.60, which would have saved you money.

Correct, but if the validators are in action at Alexandra Palace then note that you need to wait two minutes before touching back in.

The "extension fare" applies to Oyster season Travelcard holders. I don't think it applies to capping.

There are two sorts of extension fares. One applies to Oyster and travelcard season tickets. The other applies to daily/weekly capping.

 

[Be3G]

Thanks for the replies everyone. So just to confirm, my understanding of the system (in terms of capping, extensions etc.) was fundamentally correct, it's just the extension fare was far higher than expected?

Do we have a rough idea anywhere (even if out of date) of how much the extension fares are on the Potters Bar route, e.g. from old FoI requests, journeys people have made in the past, etc.?

If I'd realised the extensions would be so high at the time, I'd have used my Network Railcard to get a Potters Bar to zone 1–6 travelcard instead for £13.00. Simple eh.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the replies everyone. So just to confirm, my understanding of the system (in terms of capping, extensions etc.) was fundamentally correct, it's just the extension fare was far higher than expected?

Do we have a rough idea anywhere (even if out of date) of how much the extension fares are on the Potters Bar route, e.g. from old FoI requests, journeys people have made in the past, etc.?

If I'd realised the extensions would be so high at the time, I'd have used my Network Railcard to get a Potters Bar to zone 1–6 travelcard instead for £13.00. Simple eh.

I think it's unacceptable that TfL don't proactively publish the contactless extension fares anywhere. The TfL contactless conditions merely refer you back to the TfL fare finder, which might well lead you to expect an extension fare of £3.60, based on the point to point Fare.

TfL have previously refused to do so under spurious grounds - but as they have failed to inform you of the price prior to the contract being formed, section 51 of the Consumer Rights Act dictates that they may only charge a "reasonable price".

Given that the conditions do allude to caps and extension fares, I don't think it is "reasonable" to charge twice as much for an extension fare as for the equivalent point to point fare.

Of course, given the small amount in question it's unlikely to be worth your while trying to contest it if it only happens to you once. But if it happens on a repeated basis it may be more worthwhile taking action to recover what uou could quite legitimately see as an unreasonable fare.

 

[miklcct]

which might well lead you to expect an extension fare of £3.60, based on the point to point Fare.

If you hold a Travelcard-enabled Oyster, this expectation is right, as it's well known that only the non-covered zones are charged while travelling outside the covered zones.

However, in the OP's case, there is no Travelcard and a number of journeys are made on purely PAYG basis, so I don't think that an extension fare should come into play here.

 

[plugwash]

But if it happens on a repeated basis it may be more worthwhile taking action to recover what uou could quite legitimately see as an unreasonable fare.

I see two problems.

1. They would probablly argue that after the first couple of times you knew or should have known what you would be charged, it's not like TfL allow months/years worth of charges to build up before they bill you.
2. Even if you did win it would likely be a phyric victory. The governement would either change the documentation or perhaps get rid of the concept of extension fares entirely.

 

[Watershed]

I see two problems.

1. They would probablly argue that after the first couple of times you knew or should have known what you would be charged, it's not like TfL allow months/years worth of charges to build up before they bill you.

Perhaps so if you always made the same journeys. But if you made lots different journeys and were thereby "overcharged" (compared to the point to point fares) by different amounts each time?

More fundamentally, whilst having increased contactless boundary fares is unpalatable, the least TfL need to do is to allow people to look up what they'll be charged in advance.

2. Even if you did win it would likely be a phyric victory. The governement would either change the documentation or perhaps get rid of the concept of extension fares entirely.

If it causes TfL to document the fares (which they seem to have a bizarre aversion to doing) then it's a victory. I doubt the would get rid of the concept - doing so would require much more effort.

 

[JonathanH]

The governement would either change the documentation or perhaps get rid of the concept of extension fares entirely

How would they 'get rid of the concept of extension fares'?

One way would be to say that the journey from Potters Bar doesn't count towards the cap at all, regardless of where the person opts out.

The other way is to say that if you make any touch at an outboundary station, the only cap which applies is the cap from that outboundary station. (I think this is how Oyster works if the first touch is outside the zones whereas Contactless will offer a slightly cheaper fare if only one touch is outside the zones.)

 

[MikeWh]

However, in the OP's case, there is no Travelcard and a number of journeys are made on purely PAYG basis, so I don't think that an extension fare should come into play here.

Really. So you think that anyone using contactless within zones 1-6 for one return journey zone 6-1 and plenty of other zone 1 journeys should pay the zone 1-2 cap plus the full fare for the singles 6-1 and 1-6? I'm glad you don't work for TfL.

The other way is to say that if you make any touch at an outboundary station, the only cap which applies is the cap from that outboundary station. (I think this is how Oyster works if the first touch is outside the zones whereas Contactless will offer a slightly cheaper fare if only one touch is outside the zones.)

Oyster works that way initially, but when the journeys are run through the back office it will issue a refund if you were overcharged.

 

[JonathanH]

Oyster works that way initially, but when the journeys are run through the back office it will issue a refund if you were overcharged.

Yes, although one of the reasons the extension fares are set as they are is to ensure that if you make a return journey from the outboundary station, without breaking it at the boundary station, the outboundary cap is the fare charged. As a result, the only refunds should apply where the journey from the outboundary station is in only one direction.

 

[Be3G]

I've been thinking some more about this. If we assume that the Potters Bar to ‘boundary zone 3’ PAYG extensions are priced so that two of those plus a zone 1–3 cap equals the cost of the corresponding Potters Bar to 1–6 travelcard, we arrive at the following extension fare prices:

Off-peak: £3.80
Peak: £8.70 (!!!)

If we assume that those figures are in the ballpark of the real costs, then the fact my notional extension fare cost at least £5.00 reveals perhaps another issue, possibly with my understanding. My journey from Potters Bar was in the evening peak, but was priced as off-peak because it ended in zone 1. I assumed (oh dear, lots of assumptions in this post) therefore that if this journey became an extension fare, it too would be charged as off-peak. But maybe the contactless system has seen it as a peak extension fare instead?

 

[MikeWh]

If we assume that those figures are in the ballpark of the real costs, then the fact my notional extension fare cost at least £5.00 reveals perhaps another issue, possibly with my understanding. My journey from Potters Bar was in the evening peak, but was priced as off-peak because it ended in zone 1. I assumed (oh dear, lots of assumptions in this post) therefore that if this journey became an extension fare, it too would be charged as off-peak. But maybe the contactless system has seen it as a peak extension fare instead?

Extension fares are charged at the rate for the whole journey made, so it should have been off-peak. However, I don't think we can assume that the contactless extension fares necessarily match the Potters Bar to zones 1-6 cap. My suspiscion is that they are actually much more than is needed, but get reduced down to the Potters Bar cap.

I'm afraid that this shows the stark difference in approach to charging by TOCs as opposed to TfL.

 

[JonathanH]

I think the thing you have wrong here is that the extension fares aren't necessarily half of the difference between the 'inner area' cap and the Potters Bar cap. The Zone 1-3 cap is £9.00. The Potters Bar off-peak cap is £20.50 and the peak cap is £27.00.

Many of the out of London caps are higher than the corresponding Travelcard price as well - eg an off-peak day travelcard from Potters Bar is £16.60 but the off-peak cap is £20.50

 

[miklcct]

Extension fares are charged at the rate for the whole journey made, so it should have been off-peak. However, I don't think we can assume that the contactless extension fares necessarily match the Potters Bar to zones 1-6 cap. My suspiscion is that they are actually much more than is needed, but get reduced down to the Potters Bar cap.

I'm afraid that this shows the stark difference in approach to charging by TOCs as opposed to TfL.

Are you sure that there is an extension fare, as the charging record here strongly suggests there is none?

Really. So you think that anyone using contactless within zones 1-6 for one return journey zone 6-1 and plenty of other zone 1 journeys should pay the zone 1-2 cap plus the full fare for the singles 6-1 and 1-6? I'm glad you don't work for TfL.

The 1-2 cap is £7.70, while the 1-6 cap is £14.10. By making a 6-1 journey on the tube, then plenty of journeys within 1-2 to hit the 1-2 cap, and the 1-6 back, the 1-6 cap will be hit anyway because the single fare is £3.50:

7.70 + 3.50 * 2 = 14.70 > 14.10

However, if what happened is that, one make a single 6-1 tube journey, then plenty of journeys within 1-2 to hit the 1-2 cap, the 6-1 journey will be charged as a full £3.50. If Oyster is used it won't cap until £14.10 is charged on the day but the backend system will refund the difference later such that the total fare is £11.20 (a 1-2 cap + a single 6-1 tube journey).

So I still don't believe that there is an extension fare in play here.

Can anyone show me some charging records where an inner area cap is hit and the extra-zonal journey isn't charged as a full single without hitting the outer area cap?

 

[JonathanH]

Can anyone show me some charging records where an inner area cap is hit and the extra-zonal journey isn't charged as a full single without hitting the outer area cap?

Not in the right order but there is effectively one here
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...less-boundary-zone-fares.230395/#post-5614958

This one is Zone 1-4 + Redhill, and is more in line with your suggestion. The Redhill to Abbey Wood journey is charged in full in addition to the Zone 1-4 cap, suggesting that the extension fare is more than £7.00.

However, the difference between the cap reached at Stratford and the one reached at Norwood Junction is not the difference between a published cap and the £11.00 Zone 1-4 cap. I think the cap reached at Stratford is the Zone 1-2 cap (£7.70) plus £1.70 (Zone 4-3 off-peak on LU scale) so the journey from Abbey Wood into Zone 1 hasn't been charged in full.

 

[MikeWh]

Firstly, would you please use the correct English notation for monetary values where pence are always quoted as two digits after the decimal point, even if the second digit is a zero. I've edited your post for readability.

Are you sure that there is an extension fare, as the charging record here strongly suggests there is none?

Yes I am sure.

However, if what happened is that, one make a single 6-1 tube journey, then plenty of journeys within 1-2 to hit the 1-2 cap, the 6-1 journey will be charged as a full £3.50. If Oyster is used it won't cap until £14.10 is charged on the day but the backend system will refund the difference later such that the total fare is £11.20 (a 1-2 cap + a single 6-1 tube journey).

So I still don't believe that there is an extension fare in play here.

There is. See the capping examples page on my website. Each of those examples has been tried by me, although the fares have been updated to reflect current prices (although I seem to have not made this years changes, so it's still 2021 fares).

Can anyone show me some charging records where an inner area cap is hit and the extra-zonal journey isn't charged as a full single without hitting the outer area cap?

Not without a lot of searching. I colaborated with Geoff Marshall on a video where he and a friend made journeys, one on Oyster and one on contactless, and the end result was different. I can't find the video now, so it may have had to be taken down for some reason.

It was on the Londonist Channel.