TfL contactless - enter/exit same station

[Lewisham2221]

Does anybody know how the TfL contactless system works if you enter and exit at the same station, without travelling? For example, if you've forgotten something, have a sudden change of plans, or realise that there are delays/overcrowding and opt for a different travel option? Can the system handle this, or would you be charged for 2 incomplete journeys?

 

[PeterC]

If you leave within 2 minutes you will be charged the maximum fare but this will be refunded if you reenter within 45 minutes

The full set of rules is here

Touching in and out

Always touch in and touch out on yellow card readers to pay the right fare

tfl.gov.uk

 

[MikeWh]

If you leave within 2 minutes you will be charged the maximum fare but this will be refunded if you reenter within 45 minutes

The full set of rules is here

Touching in and out

Always touch in and touch out on yellow card readers to pay the right fare

tfl.gov.uk

That is the situation for Oyster. At present, contactless does not make either charge for under 2 or 2-30 minutes.

 

[winks]

I’ve been refunded twice now, specifically journeys across zones 1-2 tube only. They took a PAYG daily cap fare and the following day it was refunded.

I have no idea why.

 

[sjoh]

That is the situation for Oyster. At present, contactless does not make either charge for under 2 or 2-30 minutes.

I'm afraid I must disagree! Last week I touched in on a standalone reader at Hackney Wick with my contactless bank card (well, phone) (the barriers were open and not functioning); seeing that the next train to stratford was not due for another 25 minutes due to a few cancellations, my partner and I decided to take an Uber instead. I waited for 2 minutes, and then touched out on the very same reader. Today whilst reviewing my travel history, I found that I had been charged a maximum fare of £6.40. Both touches were registered on my TfL account, and it was stated that a max fare had been charged. Given no option to refute this, I inputted an incomplete journey to Stratford in order to get the majority of the charge refunded. I wish I'd taken screenshots now! £4.50 refund literally came through half an hour ago!

 

[MikeWh]

I'm afraid I must disagree! Last week I touched in on a standalone reader at Hackney Wick with my contactless bank card (well, phone) (the barriers were open and not functioning); seeing that the next train to stratford was not due for another 25 minutes due to a few cancellations, my partner and I decided to take an Uber instead. I waited for 2 minutes, and then touched out on the very same reader. Today whilst reviewing my travel history, I found that I had been charged a maximum fare of £6.40. Both touches were registered on my TfL account, and it was stated that a max fare had been charged. Given no option to refute this, I inputted an incomplete journey to Stratford in order to get the majority of the charge refunded. I wish I'd taken screenshots now! £4.50 refund literally came through half an hour ago!

Well that is not my personal experience when testing just these scenarios. Indeed this was the question and response to an FOI request last October:

• And my experience of using contactless cards suggests that a same station exit within 0-2 and 2-30 minutes does not cause either a maximum fare or a minimum fare to be charged.

Yes, that’s correct. When contactless was first introduced, a softer approach for contactless was felt to be appropriate. Whether that remains the case is under consideration.

The last sentence is why I used the words "at present", though it does appear as though they have decided to change it.

If you received a maximum fare then it must have been under or exactly two minutes. Usually a journey on your history includes a link to a contact form for you to discuss the charge. It may be that in this specific scenario there isn't a link, but I hope it is there. I would have used that to explain that cancellations forced you to abandon the journey and ask for the whole charge to be refunded. Failing that I'd call the helpdesk. I don't think it's too late to contact them (either way) and explain what really happened and that you weren't sure how to resolve that. They should then refund the charge for the journey to Stratford.

 

[sjoh]

Well that is not my personal experience when testing just these scenarios. Indeed this was the question and response to an FOI request last October:

The last sentence is why I used the words "at present", though it does appear as though they have decided to change it.

If you received a maximum fare then it must have been under or exactly two minutes. Usually a journey on your history includes a link to a contact form for you to discuss the charge. It may be that in this specific scenario there isn't a link, but I hope it is there. I would have used that to explain that cancellations forced you to abandon the journey and ask for the whole charge to be refunded. Failing that I'd call the helpdesk. I don't think it's too late to contact them (either way) and explain what really happened and that you weren't sure how to resolve that. They should then refund the charge for the journey to Stratford.

I think we may have established whether that remains the case or not then!!
Tbh I'm not overly fussed about reclaiming the additional £1.90 from them; I was just a bit confused as to why I'd been charged anything at all.
Admittedly, I didn't time the 2 minutes other than from keeping an eye on the station clock, so I certainly could have been a few seconds under.

It does seem a little strange though, because I don't understand what fraudulent use there could be from tapping in and out within say 5 minutes. It's obvious that you can't have gotten anywhere and back within 5 minutes from any station, and as every tap IN eventually needs to be reconciled to a tap OUT, I don't see where the grey area is.

 

[MikeWh]

I don't see where the grey area is.

It's to do with two people trying to use the same contactless card at the same time.

 

[sjoh]

It's to do with two people trying to use the same contactless card at the same time.

I don't see how a maximum fare fixes that tho? If it gets tapped twice, you're back "out" of the station, so the journey would be invalid anyway?

 

[tomuk]

I don't see how a maximum fare fixes that tho? If it gets tapped twice, you're back "out" of the station, so the journey would be invalid anyway?

But how do you detect that invalidity? It is easier to charge a maximum journey than get an inspector to catch person travelling with an invalid pass.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't see how a maximum fare fixes that tho? If it gets tapped twice, you're back "out" of the station, so the journey would be invalid anyway?

You need to consider someone tapping in, then out but remaining on the paid side of the barriers, and then if their destination is un-gated .

 

[sjoh]

Yeah, I see what you mean. I suppose I wasn't considering it as a deterrent, and was instead thinking of it being a means to stop a particular behaviour entirely... mybad!

 

[matt_world2004]

I'm afraid I must disagree! Last week I touched in on a standalone reader at Hackney Wick with my contactless bank card (well, phone) (the barriers were open and not functioning); seeing that the next train to stratford was not due for another 25 minutes due to a few cancellations, my partner and I decided to take an Uber instead. I waited for 2 minutes, and then touched out on the very same reader. Today whilst reviewing my travel history, I found that I had been charged a maximum fare of £6.40. Both touches were registered on my TfL account, and it was stated that a max fare had been charged. Given no option to refute this, I inputted an incomplete journey to Stratford in order to get the majority of the charge refunded. I wish I'd taken screenshots now! £4.50 refund literally came through half an hour ago!

You should have contacted tfl and explained the situation and got the whole journey refunded . There is usually a contact us about this journey in the app

 

[P Binnersley]

According to this TfL Webpage on same station exits :

You can get a refund if you have been charged for touching in and out at the same station without making a journey.

Before you claim​

We aim to automatically refund you for a same station exit if you have not had one in the last 7 days.

Claim a refund​

Contactless (card or device)​

If you haven't received an automatic refund after 48 hours, you can submit a claim for a refund on your contactless and Oyster account:

 

[sjoh]

According to this TfL Webpage on same station exits :

Good to know for future! ty!

 

[Sultan]

I did the same from Mill Hill East, although the touch reader is for 'ins' and 'outs' as opposed to separate barriers (such as Waterloo). I was going to Aldgate but forgot something so touched out before travel (not sure if it was within 2 minutes or not).

I can't see anything on my journey history apart from the £4.40 fare to Aldgate. Strangely though I see a £2.50 credit to my account 3 days later - no idea why!

Oh, and it's an Oyster Card and not contactless bank card.

 

[brewer85]

Like others, on occasion I've been charged for same station exits a couple of times or incomplete journeys for taps that didn't register, for whatever reason.

However, the way I look at it, I've also had many free bus rides over the years, due to the onboard oyster reader not working and the driver waving everyone on; I reckon it evens out over time.

 

[MikeWh]

I can't see anything on my journey history apart from the £4.40 fare to Aldgate.

It will have been under 2 minutes with a touch back in within 45 minutes. That cancels the max fare and restarts the journey.

No idea what the £2.50 would be, but probably not connected to this.

 

[Route115?]

Going a bit off topic as I have a retired staff pass, but exiting a station does not, from experience, cancel passback, so you cannot re-enter a station within the passback limit time. Interestingly that applies to both entrances at Southwark.

Presumably you could therefore be charged the full fare if you walk through Southwak Stn from Waterloo East to Blackfriars road (which you quite possible might want to do during a downpour).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going a bit off topic as I have a retired staff pass, but exiting a station does not, from experience, cancel passback, so you cannot re-enter a station within the passback limit time. Interestingly that applies to both entrances at Southwark.

Presumably you could therefore be charged the full fare if you walk through Southwak Stn from Waterloo East to Blackfriars road (which you quite possible might wasnt to do during a downpour).

I've long thought there should be a passthrough fare where you enter at one gateline and leave through another one in relatively short order, say £1, there are a few places this might be useful. I can see why you'd not want it at the same gateline as that might allow passback.

 

[popeter45]

If you leave within 2 minutes you will be charged the maximum fare but this will be refunded if you reenter within 45 minutes

The full set of rules is here

Touching in and out

Always touch in and touch out on yellow card readers to pay the right fare

tfl.gov.uk

how would that work if you had to leave for somthing like all the trains getting canceled while on the platform?

 

[MikeWh]

how would that work if you had to leave for somthing like all the trains getting canceled while on the platform?

You'd contact the helpdesk and request a refund.

 

[BJames]

Going a bit off topic as I have a retired staff pass, but exiting a station does not, from experience, cancel passback, so you cannot re-enter a station within the passback limit time. Interestingly that applies to both entrances at Southwark.

Presumably you could therefore be charged the full fare if you walk through Southwak Stn from Waterloo East to Blackfriars road (which you quite possible might want to do during a downpour).

This is interesting and makes sense - I have a nominee pass and I had it once where I tapped in at Liverpool St, but the train was the last one heading to the Spurs match and absolutely rammed. I had a lot of stuff and I couldn't be bothered this time so I tapped out, got a snack and went to tap back in when the next train was ready (just over 20 minutes later), and my pass did not work on the gateline. Gateline staff tried it on the standalone reader by the wide gate and it worked. Don't know why I didn't realise it was an anti-passback measure. How long is the passback limit?

 

[Mojo]

Going a bit off topic as I have a retired staff pass, but exiting a station does not, from experience, cancel passback, so you cannot re-enter a station within the passback limit time. Interestingly that applies to both entrances at Southwark.

That is not my experience; I have gone In>Out>In at Victoria LU station a few years ago in order to cancel an OSI from having effect which would have caused me to exceed a maximum journey time.

Presumably you could therefore be charged the full fare if you walk through Southwak Stn from Waterloo East to Blackfriars road (which you quite possible might want to do during a downpour).

Southwark has widely publicised arrangements so you can touch in on one gateline and out on another and pass through the station free of charge.

 

[vinnym70]

I assume this is the reason there's signs at Canary Wharf (or there used to be) about using the station as a route between shopping malls which requires a touch-in and out?

 

[londonbridge]

However, the way I look at it, I've also had many free bus rides over the years, due to the onboard oyster reader not working and the driver waving everyone on; I reckon it evens out over time.

Couple of weeks back I tapped in on the bus, the reader beeped as normal but the journey never appeared on my statement and I wasn’t charged for it. It was my first journey that day so not a hopper and not anywhere near capping, it just never appeared.

 

[Taunton]

I assume this is the reason there's signs at Canary Wharf (or there used to be) about using the station as a route between shopping malls which requires a touch-in and out?

I'm very familiar with that route through Canary Wharf Jubilee Line middle concourse level, and have never seen any such signs.

 

[Mikw]

But how do you detect that invalidity? It is easier to charge a maximum journey than get an inspector to catch person travelling with an invalid pass.

Guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Don't like that

 

[pelli]

I assume this is the reason there's signs at Canary Wharf (or there used to be) about using the station as a route between shopping malls which requires a touch-in and out?

I'm very familiar with that route through Canary Wharf Jubilee Line middle concourse level, and have never seen any such signs.

I'm less familiar with it, but I'm certain that from the eastern entrance when entering the gatelines towards the west, I have on more than one occasion passed a standard TfL floorstanding information board with a large printed warning notice, the gist of which being that touching in there and then out again at the next gateline could result in a charge. It's probably gone now though, as they have reconfigured the station so that the paid area no longer spans the whole width of the station, and the eastern and western entrances are connected by an unpaid area along the south side of the station.