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TfL Propaganda: "TfL does not make a profit from fares..."

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LeeLivery

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So that's why there's been an increase in passenger usage and successfully switched passengers from the then overcrowded Southern services onto the 378s?

Passengers on the Sydenham corridor would be complaining even more during the LB works if they didn't have London Overground as an alternative.

Of course we would be complaining even more, but from almost daily experience the up to 10 car Southern trains are more popular with a lot of people. Not by usage, just by the actual train. Furthermore usage has not just risen because of London Overground, Southern usage has also continued to rise.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
However, it is a fact that the profit margin for bus operators is far less under the TfL model than is is in unregulated areas. For example, in its 2014 annual report, Stagecoach reports a 14.6% profit margin for its non-London bus operations, compared to only 9.8% profit margin for its London bus operations. And the aspiration for its London operations is only for "mid to upper single-digit operating margins".

I wasn't aware of that the profit was that high, yet rail profits are only 3% and people hate that.
 
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transmanche

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I wasn't aware of that the profit was that high, yet rail profits are only 3% and people hate that.
Probably because their rail operations get a higher level of public subsidy....
 
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bicbasher

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Of course we would be complaining even more, but from almost daily experience the up to 10 car Southern trains are more popular with a lot of people. Not by usage, just by the actual train. Furthermore usage has not just risen because of London Overground, Southern usage has also continued to rise.

Yet I'm able to get a seat on a Southern peak train on that line since 2010 and that was before the 10 car trains were introduced, especially if you move towards the back of the train. Pre 2010, it was cattle truck conditions.

We had 6tph to London Bridge before LO, yet I prefer the service and the cheaper PAYG fares than we had before.
 

NSEFAN

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starmill said:
London Overground is very slow and the trains are about as uncomfortable as they come. Do people just like it because its orange?
Unfortunately urban rail systems tend to be slow because of the frequent starts and stops. The high usage of LO routes means that dwell times can be quite large too. Seat comfort is also pretty far down on the priority list as the main objective is to cram in as many people as possible on the services.
 

HSTEd

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Expect that's not true. Manchester isn't trying to play trains but have a voice (along with other authorities) on the development of the local services. Direct running or control isn't on the cards.

It is when they convert everything that looks anything like a railway line into Metrolink.
 

LeeLivery

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Yet I'm able to get a seat on a Southern peak train on that line since 2010 and that was before the 10 car trains were introduced, especially if you move towards the back of the train. Pre 2010, it was cattle truck conditions.

We had 6tph to London Bridge before LO, yet I prefer the service and the cheaper PAYG fares than we had before.

And London Overground at peak times are not cattle truck conditions? Its horrible!

I clearly said the actual trains themselves are more popular, not operator and that isn't defined by usage. LO trains are half the length of the Southern services and people from the eastern end of the Jubliee no longer need to go London Bridge to get home, I change at Canada Water if I'm coming from that area. However Southern services into London Bridge are very well used, in the morning peaks they are crowded from Sydenham/Forest Hill upwards.

I remember the old timetable well (non-stop Dorking trains from London Bridge to Forest Hill then Sydenham was nice). I do prefer the timetable now, you may prefer the LO service, I prefer Southern, personally I'd rather Thameslink, though GTR/NR seems to hate that idea. Even though we've had to put up with the track closers and the London Bridge chaos, we seemly get nothing out of it.
 
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matt_world2004

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I don't think LO trains are uncomfortable their seats are a joy to sit in compared to FGW's Thames Valley Paddington to reading commuter services.
 

bb21

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I don't think LO trains are uncomfortable their seats are a joy to sit in compared to FGW's Thames Valley Paddington to reading commuter services.

I think you are in a distinct minority there.

I have yet to meet one person who finds the Capitalstar seats comfortable. The Networkers are not much better, but still a small improvement on the metro seats on Capitalstars.
 

Deerfold

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Whenever I read social media away from this forum I see people complaining about the huge profits that TfL make from their outrageous fares.

I presumed that these adverts were to counter these views rather than have a go at any other operators.

I don't know how other operations work but bus companies are paid on the basis of how well they run their services with bonuses for more regular services and penalties for less regular ones. The number of passengers does not directly influence the amount the bus companies earn.
 

greatkingrat

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If you are tall, the 378 seats are definitely better as you don't have your knees pressed up against the person opposite or the seat back in front.
 

ainsworth74

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If you are tall, the 378 seats are definitely better as you don't have your knees pressed up against the person opposite or the seat back in front.

Completely agree. The seats in a 378 are rock hard but I prefer not to have my knees crushed by the seat in front like you get on Networkers.

So I can see why someone might say they prefer a 378 to a Network in terms of seats.
 

bb21

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Completely agree. The seats in a 378 are rock hard but I prefer not to have my knees crushed by the seat in front like you get on Networkers.

So I can see why someone might say they prefer a 378 to a Network in terms of seats.

I guess I don't know many tall people then. :lol:
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Tall people should stand anyway as they can reach the overhead grab-rails easier than shorter people. :p
 

bicbasher

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The 378's while only being 4/5 car can add a lot more standing passengers than for example a 4 car 455 where most will stand near the doors as only a few can stand near the gangway.

However I have to agree that the 378 seats are horrid, especially if you're commuting more than 20 mins on one. They're perfectly fine for a short journey which most do as the current ELL is designed to connect passengers to other lines, but I have travelled from Highbury and Islington to Forest Hill and it's a challenge!

As I have the choice between LO and Southern, I still use both, but tend to use LO for local journeys or to change for the Jubilee line for the tube network, or Southern to get to London Bridge, Waterloo, Victoria or Charing Cross as the Oyster PAYG fares are cheaper off-peak.

LO does have the advantage here at least that it's a real turn-up and go service, while with Southern, although it's 4tph, I still have to plan when to leave the house to reach the station.
 

bramling

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Completely agree. The seats in a 378 are rock hard but I prefer not to have my knees crushed by the seat in front like you get on Networkers.

So I can see why someone might say they prefer a 378 to a Network in terms of seats.

But instead you get your feet trodden on by people moving down the carriage, or - worse - on a crowded train potentially have someone's arse in your face. Would prefer a Networker any day.
 

matt_world2004

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But instead you get your feet trodden on by people moving down the carriage, or - worse - on a crowded train potentially have someone's arse in your face. Would prefer a Networker any day.

You get that on the Thames valley commuter services too in fact in peak you are lucky to get on
 

martynbristow

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Are TfL contracts not run as concession agreements as opposed to rail franchises.
The risk is being taken by TfL.
How much of the *profit* would even go to a private operator?
 

plcd1

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Whenever I read social media away from this forum I see people complaining about the huge profits that TfL make from their outrageous fares.

I presumed that these adverts were to counter these views rather than have a go at any other operators.

I don't know how other operations work but bus companies are paid on the basis of how well they run their services with bonuses for more regular services and penalties for less regular ones. The number of passengers does not directly influence the amount the bus companies earn.

Most people on social media have no clue about the details of TfL's finances. They just think relatively expensive fares means big profits because that's a nice simplistic line from the media and politicians. The reality is much more nuanced but that rather defeats the media "line". I don't feel the adverts are 100% truthful because the message is over simplified but clearly most people aren't interested in the fine detail.

The basic fact is that Government and Mayoral policy is to try to get each TfL mode to the point where revenues exceed operating costs. LU is already there and DLR, Overground and Trams aren't too far behind. Buses are more difficult. This means each mode will make an operating profit eventually. The surplus is then used to defray some of the capital investment costs.

Government have lopped off more than £250m per annum from TfL's revenue grant and it is only deft financial foot work by TfL that has avoided service cuts but from my reading of the numbers some capital investment has been cut or postponed to get through the hurdle of each spending round. We have a Spending Review this year for revenue and it will be interesting to see what the Treasury and DfT dole out to TfL. We are getting to the point where investment projects will deliver new and improved infrastructure but operators won't be able to properly fund the incremental running costs (station staff, drivers, maintainers). That's where you get to economic madness.

It is also worth saying that the transfer of West Anglia to TfL was on the basis that it was financially neutral to the DfT and Treasury - i.e. no subsidy whatsoever from them to TfL in respect of the services. The North London Railway services that transferred in 2007 do attract a grant payment from DfT to TfL.

On your second point most of the operations have performance based contracts in place - certainly true for LOROL, MTR Crossrail and DLR. TfL have increased the "hurdles" in recently let contracts making it much tougher for operators. The Crossrail regime is particularly onerous once services run through the tunnels and it will be interesting to see if MTR can make money running the service. LU's performance regime is now "internalised" and will be set on the basis of Directorate targets on cost efficiency, budget savings, lost customer hours, engineering parameters for asset performance. The regular performance reports are published so it's easy to see how things are going.
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Are TfL contracts not run as concession agreements as opposed to rail franchises.
The risk is being taken by TfL.
How much of the *profit* would even go to a private operator?

Farebox revenue risk is held by TfL although operators get a share of improved revenue where fare evasion is demonstrably reduced. TfL take the revenue risk because it is better able to "hedge" against economic fluctuation. It also means that we do not have operators "gambling" as to how well or badly the economy will go and other factors like population growth and then also needing "escape clauses" if things go badly wrong. Personally I think this makes far more sense on commuter networks where there is little scope to play fancy games with ticket products and pricing.

The contracted operators have risk in terms of contracted service performance, staff performance and ambience. Obviously some of the service performance risk is held by Network Rail via the disruption attribution process as they're responsible for infrastructure, signalling and power assets. The operators will have a set level of return within their bid costs for the contract. If they want to earn more money then they need to reduce the cost of operation and / or perform highly to earn performance bonuses.
 
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