TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Mojo]

A consultation has just launched on the TfL website into a proposal to withdraw One Day Travelcards; this would affect both inboundary and outboundary versions.

We are exploring the option of withdrawing Day Travelcards.

If withdrawn, Day Travelcards would no longer be sold or accepted by TfL. Daily pay as you go caps would not be affected, nor would weekly and longer-term Travelcards.

More details can be found at the below link: https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/travelcards

 

[Gaelan]

I love the contradiction in the "possible main impacts of the proposal" document:

1. We believe that some customers may benefit from not paying upfront for travel, as they do when buying a Day Travelcard. When using PAYG, customers can pay less, as they only pay for the journeys they actually make. Daily caps on PAYG are less than the price of an equivalent Day Travelcard.
2. The revenue generated by the proposal is an important contribution to helping TfL achieve and maintain financial sustainability, and key to the continued long-term delivery of an effective and efficient transport network. Meeting the condition of government funding settlements is also important to help ensure continued funding support from government.

Apparently this will benefit customers by allowing them to pay less, while generating additional revenue. Impressive!

 

[RJ]

A lot of people who buy Day Travelcards don’t want to use contactless or Oyster as they’ve been caught out once with a maximum fare and lose confidence in the system. It’s a simple product which works for people.

When in other cities as a tourist I look for the equivalent product and to date I’ve not been anywhere that doesn’t offer one.

The flipside to this is these multimodal products dilute revenue for all parties so there is probably a commercial case for withdrawal.

 

[MrJeeves]

I would rather not lose my £10 outboundary day travelcard on the weekend, thank you TfL... A normal return into a Z1 terminal only costs about £3 less...

 

[gabrielhj07]

TfL say that:

There may be some instances in which travel might become more expensive if Day Travelcards are withdrawn. Customers who do not have access to a smart device, contactless payment card or Oyster would need to use paper single/return tickets, which could cost more. Additionally, customers travelling into London from a National Rail station outside of London using a National Rail Day ticket, but with a Day Travelcard “add-on” may be affected. Under the proposals, these customers would need to buy a National Rail point-to-point or London terminus ticket, and switch to PAYG on arrival in London. This could make their travel more expensive, as the cost associated with a Travelcard add-on is smaller than the cost of an actual Travelcard.

While also telling us that:

around 70 per cent of these tickets [are] bought outside the London area at National Rail stations.

I take this to mean that 70% of current day travelcard users will see their fares increase.

 

[MrJeeves]

TfL say that:


While also telling us that:


I take this to mean that 70% of current day travelcard users will see their fares increase.

Customers who do not have access to a smart device...

Are they implying there is some form of magic day travelcard on mobile, or is this their way of saying Google/Apple Pay?

 

[miklcct]

This is what I'm going to respond:

I object this proposal because of 2 main reasons: travelling outside London and use of Railcard.

The withdrawal of one-day Travelcard means that, for a day's travel involving routes both within and outside the PAYG area, the cost will significantly go up as the passenger is effectively double-paying for the travel between the Zone 6 boundary and the interchange station, unless the passenger gets off the train and tap in close to the Zone 6 boundary.

Under the current system, it is possible to buy an outboundary Travelcard to Zones 1-6 and travel on a non-stop train from the outboundary origin to central London, or to buy a normal Travelcard and boundary zone ticket and take a non-stop train out of London if the travel originates in London.

The impact mentioned under the subheading "Customers outside of London" suggests £2 extra for just travelling within Zones 1-2 while inside London. If the customer requires more zones while in London, for example taking a direct train to West Hampstead Thameslink first, then travelling around Zone 2-4, the fare paid will be much more expensive if a paper Travelcard isn't available, which is £27.70 for the paper ticket and £11.70 for the cap, totalling £39.40 instead of £28.60 for a Travelcard.

In addition, under the subheading "Use of Railcard", the fact that a Network Railcard can't be added into an Oyster card isn't mentioned. An Off-Peak Day Travelcard with Network Railcard discount can be bought on weekends for discounted travel which can't be done on PAYG.

 

[Non Multi]

People from outside London can't vote in London elections, however they can vote with their wallets. The folks at Palestra and at City Hall are making London increasingly NO-GO to outsiders.

 

[Mike395]

As far as I can see, the main losers from this are those (like me, so appreciate I'm a bit biased!) in the Network Area with a Network Railcard and not eligible for any other age/disability-based railcards - it'd increase my day trips to London in cost by up to £10/day, as there's no way of loading a Network Railcard onto Oyster.

 

[PeterC]

Looks like TfL think that they aren't getting a big enough cut from out boundary cards.

 

[JonathanH]

Looks like TfL think that they aren't getting a big enough cut from out boundary cards.

Yes, that is one of the underlying reasons, together with the need to continue to support these tickets on the gatelines.

Indeed, as the poster above points out, the increase in fare for an outboundary Network Railcard user (or Two Together or Family Railcard user) brings in extra yield, if passenger numbers aren't affected. Also, most passengers use a outboundary day travelcard for zone 1 / 2 travel once they get to London which is likely to involves more use of TfL services than perhaps the funding share currently implies.

This has been on the cards for a while but is a sad outcome.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The FAQ seems to imply that not only would the actual Travelcard be withdrawn, but also that National Rail within the Zones would be removed from the daily cap. Am I reading that right?

I also don't like the idea that there won't be any group day product at all. This will make things a right faff for e.g. visiting Scout Groups and schools of having to obtain say 30 Oysters, get the child flag set on them all and load them with the relevant sum one at a time. This is a major gap. What would perhaps be useful would be for bona-fide groups to be able to purchase online a set of child-flag-set Oysters preloaded with the correct amount for a 1-2 or 1-6 daily cap times the desired number of days and have them delivered in advance.

 

[richa2002]

Yet another reason not to visit London any longer...!

 

[Snow1964]

Looks like TfL think that they aren't getting a big enough cut from out boundary cards.

And if people decide a price rise means won't bother to do the journey, then will get a share of zero instead

I could easily see many day trip destinations object as they will lose potential customers not going into London. They are already losing out on International tourists skipping UK as easier for them to travel in Schengen area and do most of Europe, without faff of UK entry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And if people decide a price rise means won't bother to do the journey, then will get a share of zero instead

I could easily see many day trip destinations object as they will lose potential customers not going into London. They are already losing out on International tourists skipping UK as easier for them to travel in Schengen area and do most of Europe, without faff of UK entry.

I think it might give Uber etc a bit of a boost. A faff getting a family ticket for the Tube? Right, let's just use Ubers instead.

Oyster just isn't suitable in its PAYG form for visiting families and groups. There needs to be a replacement, even if it's just a means of ordering preloaded cards to be posted to you.

Edit: Visitor Oyster sort of does this, but with load sums that aren't a round number of daily caps and with no child option. This could I suppose be enhanced to add those features.

 

[miklcct]

Yes, that is one of the underlying reasons, together with the need to continue to support these tickets on the gatelines.

Indeed, as the poster above points out, the increase in fare for an outboundary Network Railcard user (or Two Together or Family Railcard user) brings in extra yield, if passenger numbers aren't affected. Also, most passengers use a outboundary day travelcard for zone 1 / 2 travel once they get to London which is likely to involves more use of TfL services than perhaps the funding share currently implies.

This has been on the cards for a while but is a sad outcome.

Why do you only assume zone 1/2 travel? If one uses an outboundary Travelcard to have a day trip to South London there will be significant non-TfL travel as well.

The FAQ seems to imply that not only would the actual Travelcard be withdrawn, but also that National Rail within the Zones would be removed from the daily cap. Am I reading that right?

I also don't like the idea that there won't be any group day product at all. This will make things a right faff for e.g. visiting Scout Groups and schools of having to obtain say 30 Oysters, get the child flag set on them all and load them with the relevant sum one at a time. This is a major gap. What would perhaps be useful would be for bona-fide groups to be able to purchase online a set of child-flag-set Oysters preloaded with the correct amount for a 1-2 or 1-6 daily cap times the desired number of days and have them delivered in advance.

The document specifically says that the cap isn't affected. Also, are there any group weekly Travelcards as well as weekly Travelcards won't be affected?

And if people decide a price rise means won't bother to do the journey, then will get a share of zero instead

I could easily see many day trip destinations object as they will lose potential customers not going into London. They are already losing out on International tourists skipping UK as easier for them to travel in Schengen area and do most of Europe, without faff of UK entry.

I hope so. If TfL pulls the product I really hope that they won't bother to do the journey, with customers encouraged to buy the National Rail ticket to the actual National Rail station in London they want to use instead (for example, a through ticket from Brighton to a certain Overground station, breaking the journey as necessary, instead of a Travelcard).

 

[Peter0124]

What is the point in scrapping these?
Very useful if you want to go spotting in London for example.

 

[sk688]

People from outside London can't vote in London elections, however they can vote with their wallets. The folks at Palestra and at City Hall are making London increasingly NO-GO to outsiders.

could always get the government to fund TFL properly and subsidise it , like nearly every other capital city in the world's transportation systems

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What is the point in scrapping these?
Very useful if you want to go spotting in London for example.

To raise more revenue and continue the shift away from paper tickets.

 

[Snow1964]

Around 55,000 customers use Day Travelcards daily and 15m Day Travelcards have been sold to date this financial year, of these tickets:
• Around 7.8m Day Travelcards were issued by Rail Operators outside zones 1-6, while around a 1.7m Day Travelcards were issued by Rail Operators inside zones 1-6.
• Over 2.4m Day Travelcards were issued by TfL
• Over 2.2m Group Day Travelcards were issued by Rail Operators outside zones 1-6
• Around 166,000 were adult or child Day Travelcards bought using a Railcard discount
• Around 70% of these were purchased outside the London area at National Rail stations.

I am reading this as over 10m day travelcards were issued to rail travellers outside zone 6 boundary last year.

Potentially that is upto 10m people who might not bother to travel into London by train anymore.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The FAQ seems to imply that not only would the actual Travelcard be withdrawn, but also that National Rail within the Zones would be removed from the daily cap. Am I reading that right?

No.

PAYG daily caps on travel will also remain unaffected.

PAYG daily caps will remain unaffected by this proposal.

We are only exploring withdrawing Day Travelcards from the Travelcard Agreement, so we would still need to ensure we have integrated fares with National Rail for daily and weekly caps.

Potentially that is upto 10m people who might not bother to travel into London by train anymore.

I'd be extremely surprised if 10m put not having an integrated outboundary ticket as the primary deciding factor in visiting a major city such as London.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

This is absolute stupidity. What's wrong with Z1-6 day Travelcards with travel from a non London station? They work really well! It's a convenient product as you only pay once, and you have your ticket that you can use for unlimited travel around London for the day! What about people who don't have bank accounts and prefer to pay in cash, or foreign tourists who also prefer to pay in cash to avoid any international transaction fees? And as some have correctly pointed out, what about people who want to avoid maximum fares?

I absolutely hope the Z1-6 Day Travelcards do not get withdrawn at all.

 

[MikeWM]

Of course I'm only a single datapoint, but I'll be *far* less likely to go to London at the weekend if paper out-boundary travelcards are withdrawn.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Of course I'm only a single datapoint, but I'll be *far* less likely to go to London at the weekend if paper out-boundary travelcards are withdrawn.

I have noticed that in my situation (Horsham to London Z1-6), tickets will be expensive without the Travelcard as well, as it means having to first buy a £17.60 Off Peak Day Return to London Terminals, then add about a roughly £14.90 Z1-6 daily cap. This makes my travel far more expensive because with an Off Peak Z1-6 Travelcard, I would only pay £19!

 

[matt_world2004]

Many tourists like day travelcards as they are easier to work out . And plan for the day

 

[ThameslinkUser]

What about people who don't have bank accounts and prefer to pay in cash

Cash options still exist.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Cash options still exist.

For now...

 

[moogal]

One thing that's particularly annoying about this (well, at least to me personally) is that it removes flexibility from some journeys. I work in Shepherd's Bush and on the occasions when I need to travel to the office I'll usually buy the Travelcard because it allows me to either travel into Euston and take the tube, or use the Southern WLL service to Shepherd's Bush NR station. If I was buying rail tickets separately I'd be limited to one route or the other because there's no other ticket that allows both - Shepherd's Bush isn't a London Terminal.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

One thing that's particularly annoying about this (well, at least to me personally) is that it removes flexibility from some journeys. I work in Shepherd's Bush and on the occasions when I need to travel to the office I'll usually buy the Travelcard because it allows me to either travel into Euston and take the tube, or use the Southern WLL service to Shepherd's Bush NR station. If I was buying rail tickets separately I'd be limited to one route or the other because there's no other ticket that allows both - Shepherd's Bush isn't a London Terminal.

Even more of a reason why withdrawing the Z1-6 Travelcard is complete stupidity!

 

[miklcct]

If I was buying rail tickets separately I'd be limited to one route or the other because there's no other ticket that allows both - Shepherd's Bush isn't a London Terminal.

In this case a ticket to Clapham Junction, route + Any Permitted, will do, or when single-leg pricing is rolled out nationally, buy them separately.