TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Bletchleyite]

Are you thinking about Southern Daysave tickets? Travelcards have always been available on the day in ticket offices or TVMs.

No, I meant a maximum number of days in advance, not a minimum.

 

[Haywain]

No, I meant a maximum number of days in advance, not a minimum.

See post #1220.

 

[Deerfold]

The machines could add money to Oyster and that's it.

No ticket machine to sell paper tickets, and ultimately no need for gates to accept paper tickets. Just cards and eventually e-tickets.

Less maintenance issues and less ongoing costs.

Except at the moment, the same machines sell tickets and let you add money to Oyster.

If you want to get rid of gates that accept paper tickets there's quite a lot of other things that need to change, too. I'd wager that most paper tickets put through LU gates aren't sold by LU ticket machines.

I'm really not sure what problem you're fixing.

 

[MikeWh]

No, I meant a maximum number of days in advance, not a minimum.

I see now. It really wasn't clear if you read your post.

 

[Skie]

It's still mentioned on the relevant Knowledgebase page.

Normally no more than 7 days in advance, but that can be extended to 12 weeks in advance when sold in conjunction with an Advance ticket.

From the stack of travelcards I have on my desk for the 21st of November I’m not sure they’re enforcing that. They were bought on their own nearly a month ago.

 

[jon0844]

I'm really not sure what problem you're fixing.

I'm not fixing anything, but if TfL wanted to stop accepting Travelcards or cross-London tickets, and stop selling paper tickets of their own, they could simply disable/cover the magstrip readers and stop selling tickets. Then many machines can be decommissioned or removed when their leases are up, or perhaps when they need to be upgraded (perhaps software licenses need updating etc).

I think the point here was that TfL may be forced to do radical things if the DfT/RDG/Tory Government are going to keep playing politics and doing everything to undermine it. The loss of out-boundary Travelcards is a big deal, even if a lot of people have viable alternatives (but either don't know about them, or just like the convenience of a paper ticket).

 

[MikeWM]

It's still mentioned on the relevant Knowledgebase page.

Normally no more than 7 days in advance, but that can be extended to 12 weeks in advance when sold in conjunction with an Advance ticket.

Why was/is this, out of interest? I remember being very confused on one occasion about 12 years ago when Cambridge ticket office, very apologetically, explained to me they couldn't sell me a travelcard more than 7 days in advance, but I saw at the time I could get one considerably more in advance than that via online booking.

 

[jon81uk]

I'm not fixing anything, but if TfL wanted to stop accepting Travelcards or cross-London tickets, and stop selling paper tickets of their own, they could simply disable/cover the magstrip readers and stop selling tickets. Then many machines can be decommissioned or removed when their leases are up, or perhaps when they need to be upgraded (perhaps software licenses need updating etc).

I think the point here was that TfL may be forced to do radical things if the DfT/RDG/Tory Government are going to keep playing politics and doing everything to undermine it. The loss of out-boundary Travelcards is a big deal, even if a lot of people have viable alternatives (but either don't know about them, or just like the convenience of a paper ticket).

Right now there is no suggestion that TfL are making further steps to remove paper tickets. They want to get more revenue and aren't happy with how much they get from Travelcards so wish to withdraw from one day travelcards but removal of paper tickets is an entirely seperate issue.

For what it is worth though I do think TfL need to copy some European transport systems and introduce a disposable RFID ticket that can be used as a one-day TfL ticket so visitors can travel without buying an Oyster. In Athens they had RFID tickets for single journeys.

 

[Deerfold]

Right now there is no suggestion that TfL are making further steps to remove paper tickets. They want to get more revenue and aren't happy with how much they get from Travelcards so wish to withdraw from one day travelcards but removal of paper tickets is an entirely seperate issue.

For what it is worth though I do think TfL need to copy some European transport systems and introduce a disposable RFID ticket that can be used as a one-day TfL ticket so visitors can travel without buying an Oyster. In Athens they had RFID tickets for single journeys.

The systems I've used recently just let me have a ticket on my phone - of course not all have gates, they reply on infrequent checks but with a high automatic fine. But should be possible with NFT phones and gates.

 

[jon81uk]

The systems I've used recently just let me have a ticket on my phone - of course not all have gates, they reply on infrequent checks but with a high automatic fine. But should be possible with NFT phones and gates.

I would expect a majority of those with NFC enabled phones would be happy just using contactless payment. The issue is more around those who don't want to use contactless (due to foreign card fees) or don't have access to a card/phone).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The systems I've used recently just let me have a ticket on my phone - of course not all have gates, they reply on infrequent checks but with a high automatic fine. But should be possible with NFT phones and gates.

I'm not sure what the point of "having a ticket on your phone" is when you can just tap in and out with it. You're not going to get many (any?) people happy to use mobile phone ticketing apps who don't possess a debit card.

The issue is more around those who don't want to use contactless (due to foreign card fees) or don't have access to a card/phone).

For them there's Oyster and the ability to load it with cash. Yes, it's £7 (which I find a bit steep - clearly punitively priced given that Merseyside flog theirs for a quid) but that's inconsiderable when put on top of the cost of travel to and accommodation in London, so is a non-issue. Many will even quite like it as a souvenir. Anyone who lives near London so not needing accommodation will pay the £7 and use it lots of times.

 

[redreni]

I'm not fixing anything, but if TfL wanted to stop accepting Travelcards or cross-London tickets, and stop selling paper tickets of their own, they could simply disable/cover the magstrip readers and stop selling tickets. Then many machines can be decommissioned or removed when their leases are up, or perhaps when they need to be upgraded (perhaps software licenses need updating etc).

I think the point here was that TfL may be forced to do radical things if the DfT/RDG/Tory Government are going to keep playing politics and doing everything to undermine it. The loss of out-boundary Travelcards is a big deal, even if a lot of people have viable alternatives (but either don't know about them, or just like the convenience of a paper ticket).

Sorry to sound like a broken record but the idea that this is only really about outboundary travelcards (and therefore non-Londoners) is what the Mayor wants Londoners to think in the hope this move won't negatively impact his popularity among people who can vote in London mayoral elections. People do live in zones 5 and 6, though.

The £10 inboundary travelcard for Network Railcard holders at weekends is going and the corresponding PAYG cap is £14.90. That has nothing to do with TfL withdrawing a subsidy from the Home Counties since the Treasury will no longer be giving TfL financial support for it - that particular change is just a 49% fare hike for Londoners (albeit, I admit, a smallish subset thereof) during a cost of living crisis, imposed by a Mayor who says he wants people in outer London to drive less and use public transport more.

I realise there's a school of thought that the Mayor doesn't need to carry a majority of votes in the outer boroughs to win the election. That is utterly irrelevant because it's not a first past the post election. Every vote counts the same everywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do that many people who rarely travel out of London have Network Railcards and buy paper tickets, though?

Merseyrail abolished Railcards for "internal" use by replacing their off peak day singles/returns with day tickets, and almost nobody complained. I don't agree with it (they could have discounted the day tickets) but it hasn't been controversial at all, really.

I'd be inclined to bet that the sales of the ticket you mention (off peak 1-6 Travelcard with NSE discount) is probably in the low tens per day if that. You hardly ever see anyone using a paper ticket at Tube gates these days, even at mainline stations.

 

[Somewhere]

Why was/is this, out of interest? I remember being very confused on one occasion about 12 years ago when Cambridge ticket office, very apologetically, explained to me they couldn't sell me a travelcard more than 7 days in advance, but I saw at the time I could get one considerably more in advance than that via online booking.

Because, before automatic ticket gates, people could use tickets that weren't actually valid without being detected. Even with the early ticket gates I'm not sure they could detect an advance dated ticket that wasn't valid yet

 

[jon81uk]

For them there's Oyster and the ability to load it with cash. Yes, it's £7 (which I find a bit steep - clearly punitively priced given that Merseyside flog theirs for a quid) but that's inconsiderable when put on top of the cost of travel to and accommodation in London, so is a non-issue. Many will even quite like it as a souvenir. Anyone who lives near London so not needing accommodation will pay the £7 and use it lots of times.

Thats the point though, £7 is a significant cost. When the cost of travel is under £15 a day, its adding 50% to the cost. If TfL do consider moving away from all paper tickets (and I don't think they are yet) then I do think a disposable RFID ticket is needed, even if it is a small premium over the standard contactless fare, similar to the cash single fare being very high currently.

Do that many people who rarely travel out of London have Network Railcards and buy paper tickets, though?

Merseyrail abolished Railcards for "internal" use by replacing their off peak day singles/returns with day tickets, and almost nobody complained. I don't agree with it (they could have discounted the day tickets) but it hasn't been controversial at all, really.

I'd be inclined to bet that the sales of the ticket you mention (off peak 1-6 Travelcard with NSE discount) is probably in the low tens per day if that. You hardly ever see anyone using a paper ticket at Tube gates these days, even at mainline stations.

I agree, I expect those living within the TfL zones and using one-day travelcard tickets is a tiny number of people.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats the point though, £7 is a significant cost.

It's not, though, when you aren't going to get change out of £50 for a return journey to London and hotel rooms barely exist for under £100 in the centre.

And if you're close enough to London to visit often on day trips, it's not £3.50 per day for a weekend, it's split between the many, many times you'll use it.

FWIW I think the £7 is in part intended to be a premium similar to cash single fares to encourage the use of contactless. The actual cards cost under a quid and Merseyside charges that for them.

 

[MikeWM]

Because, before automatic ticket gates, people could use tickets that weren't actually valid without being detected. Even with the early ticket gates I'm not sure they could detect an advance dated ticket that wasn't valid yet

But why would that be more an issue for travelcards than any other ticket type?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But why would that be more an issue for travelcards than any other ticket type?

Because they offer unlimited travel on a network where staff almost never actually look at your ticket (or in the case of buses it's usually flashed past them too quickly to see the date).

 

[Somewhere]

But why would that be more an issue for travelcards than any other ticket type?

Perhaps its a TfL issue? I'm sure it used to be the same with cheap day returns as well (don't know if it still is)

 

[jon81uk]

It's not, though, when you aren't going to get change out of £50 for a return journey to London and hotel rooms barely exist for under £100 in the centre.

And if you're close enough to London to visit often on day trips, it's not £3.50 per day for a weekend, it's split between the many, many times you'll use it.

FWIW I think the £7 is in part intended to be a premium similar to cash single fares to encourage the use of contactless. The actual cards cost under a quid and Merseyside charges that for them.

For a tourist flying in they won't use it multiple times. Might only be one or two days use. I agree for those who live in the UK they should be using contactless payment cards, or just pay the £7. The issue is foreign tourists. If you are only going to use the Underground for 1-2 days in your entire life, £7 is a large fee to pay. Yes they are paying a lot for flights to London and similar, but paying more as a paper ticket is no longer available (if that ever does happen) does seem unfair.

But I've visited Barcelona and Athens in the last year, each time I only took one or two journeys on the metro and bought paper tickets (to my knowledge it wasn't possible to use contactless), so admittedly its a different system as TfL has moved on to a digital ticketing system with Oyster/contactless, but if in those other cities I'd had to pay £7 to be able to take any journey then I probably wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a tourist flying in they won't use it multiple times. Might only be one or two days use. I agree for those who live in the UK they should be using contactless payment cards, or just pay the £7. The issue is foreign tourists. If you are only going to use the Underground for 1-2 days in your entire life, £7 is a large fee to pay.

It's really not. If you're flying into London (probably around £150 return these days from a European origin) and staying two nights in a hotel (unlikely to get change from £200), plus buying drinks (over £6 a pint now) and food, your trip is going to cost you about £500-700 per couple.

It costing £514-714 instead is really noise level. Taking one taxi or Uber trip instead of the Tube would do that too.

And before anyone shouts "but InterRailers" as they tend to travel on a tighter budget, the number of young InterRailers who aren't tech- and banking-savvy so they will have a decent travel bank account where using contactless doesn't hit them with hefty fees is going to be a very round number indeed, i.e. 0. If you travel a lot and your bank charges you a flat fee per transaction rather than just a percentage or indeed nothing, find a bank that actually works for you.

In any case, tourist taxes are common and well-accepted worldwide - it's near enough only the UK that doesn't really do them. This is just another one.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not sure what the point of "having a ticket on your phone" is when you can just tap in and out with it. You're not going to get many (any?) people happy to use mobile phone ticketing apps who don't possess a debit card.

I like knowing what I'm paying upfront.

I had a 1 week ticket for Oslo recently on my phone. Few places do weekly capping starting on the day you happen to arrive.

I already have my phone. I don't really want to buy whatever the local card is to them have to load a ticket on it (I've got a dozen or so cards already).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like knowing what I'm paying upfront.

You're in the minority of people who care that much. And you can, if you do care, pay £7 for an Oyster.

I already have my phone. I don't really want to buy whatever the local card is to them have to load a ticket on it (I've got a dozen or so cards already).

Tough, frankly. There's no reason TfL should continue to carry the huge cost of paper ticket sale and processing for people who have another option but choose not to use it due to their own personal preference. Nor why they should fund the cost of a phone based card system for maybe tens of people a day if that who are techie enough to use something on their phone but concerned about not trusting contactless and don't want to pay £7 for Oyster. (The actual cards cost under a quid, so I don't doubt the app would be £10 or so).

Ever been to Istanbul? The Istanbulkart (their Oyster) is the only means of paying for public transport. You get one and use it, it's not a problem at all.

 

[jon0844]

While the outrage to the ticket office closure consultation will perhaps kick the proposal down the road a fair bit, perhaps beyond the next election, I do think there's a real desire to speed up the introduction of smart cards, contactless and e-ticketing to do away with paper tickets as soon as practicable. And I can't imagine TfL wouldn't want to do that to save a fortune in maintaining the printers/machines, the gates, the need to buy and store the ticket stock and dispose of the used tickets.

Magstrip tickets are also extremely limited, so hinder revenue protection massively.

I thought they were going to add e-ticket readers to gatelines throughout the Underground at some point, which if and when that happens means paper tickets must surely become history VERY soon afterwards. Those who use paper tickets to cross London today can't get issued an e-ticket, but if TfL addresses that then few people travelling into London by train are going to need a paper ticket either.

There's clearly a political battle between Sadiq and the Tories, but the DfT and TfL are now a lot closer than ever - and if there was a Tory Mayor returned to the job next year, I suspect they'd actually start to work together on a common goal to get rid of paper tickets altogether.

If Oyster was upgraded to ITSO, and cards were gradually upgraded/changed over time, they could start to work beyond the current confines and take both London tickets and national rail tickets etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Oyster was upgraded to ITSO, and cards were gradually upgraded/changed over time, they could start to work beyond the current confines and take both London tickets and national rail tickets etc.

Oyster is going to be upgraded, but not to ITSO - "new Oyster" is going to be based on RFID "dumbcards" and the contactless back-end. The card won't store its value, just its number.

ITSO is 20 years ago's technology. E-ticketing of various types where the ticket resides on a database back-end is the future.

 

[jon0844]

Whatever the case, I am sure that even though there are 'no plans' to get rid of paper tickets, there absolutely are plans to get rid of paper tickets. It's just a case of having to join up quite a few sets of dots to make it happen, and politics (as well as funding) may just get in the way.

 

[Deerfold]

You're in the minority of people who care that much. And you can, if you do care, pay £7 for an Oyster.

That seems a lot on top of a £9 daily fare.

Tough, frankly. There's no reason TfL should continue to carry the huge cost of paper ticket sale and processing for people who have another option but choose not to use it due to their own personal preference. Nor why they should fund the cost of a phone based card system for maybe tens of people a day if that who are techie enough to use something on their phone but concerned about not trusting contactless and don't want to pay £7 for Oyster. (The actual cards cost under a quid, so I don't doubt the app would be £10 or so).

I've made no suggestion that TfL should sell paper tickets - I've suggested a completely wasteless system. RFiD cards are not easy to recycle.

What's a phone based card system?

Most bus companies seem to have quite easily implemented phone tickets. Lots of people use them, even though you can pay with debit cards on most buses. None of them charge for their apps that I've seen so far.

Ever been to Istanbul? The Istanbulkart (their Oyster) is the only means of paying for public transport. You get one and use it, it's not a problem at all.

I've not been to Istanbul. Is having no choice for passengers on how to pay a good thing? They also don't do day tickets. Sounds very customer unfriendly. Are you suggesting Istanbul is a model to follow?

 

[crablab]

E-ticketing of various types where the ticket resides on a database back-end is the future.

That's not how RSP eTickets work. There's enough data to validate the ticket offline encoded in the optical code.
The scan data is what's stored in the backoffice (alongside other metadata), which doesn't necessarily need to be done immediately.

 

[jon81uk]

I thought they were going to add e-ticket readers to gatelines throughout the Underground at some point, which if and when that happens means paper tickets must surely become history VERY soon afterwards. Those who use paper tickets to cross London today can't get issued an e-ticket, but if TfL addresses that then few people travelling into London by train are going to need a paper ticket either.

I don't think they will ever add e-ticket barcode readers across the entire Underground. Maybe on stations at London Terminals to facilitate those with cross London tickets but they won't adopt it across the entire network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not how RSP eTickets work. There's enough data to validate the ticket offline encoded in the optical code.
The scan data is what's stored in the backoffice (alongside other metadata), which doesn't necessarily need to be done immediately.

I'm aware of that, however I think moving purely to the backoffice will be the long-term progress as getting a signal everywhere becomes possible. It's like it is as a sort of hybrid because getting a signal everywhere currently isn't possible.

However, New Oyster in my understanding definitely is going to be back-office-only, with the new Oyster cards containing no more processing power or storage than a debit card.

I don't think they will ever add e-ticket barcode readers across the entire Underground. Maybe on stations at London Terminals to facilitate those with cross London tickets but they won't adopt it across the entire network.

I'm inclined to agree. Barcode processing is very slow because people have to move the phone around to get it to read - that's why TfL are against it, not solely because of the cost of implementation.

That seems a lot on top of a £9 daily fare.

It's not when either (a) you go to London multiple times during your life, but have to pay it just once, or (b) you're travelling down a long way for several days, in which case it's dwarfed by your long distance train ticket or flight plus hotel.

I've made no suggestion that TfL should sell paper tickets - I've suggested a completely wasteless system. RFiD cards are not easy to recycle.

You re-use them, that's the idea.

What's a phone based card system?

Developing an app that would act like an Oyster card.

Most bus companies seem to have quite easily implemented phone tickets. Lots of people use them, even though you can pay with debit cards on most buses. None of them charge for their apps that I've seen so far.

Barcodes are simpler but not fast enough for TfL, that's why they're against accepting railway barcode tickets.

I've not been to Istanbul. Is having no choice for passengers on how to pay a good thing?

Yes, it's a good thing to have a simple, standard approach used by everyone. It's easier to understand and it keeps costs down, which we all pay for in our fares or taxes.

They also don't do day tickets. Sounds very customer unfriendly. Are you suggesting Istanbul is a model to follow?

I don't see their model as a problem. The Dutch have never been big into day tickets either, the Strippenkaart was always a per-journey system, and the OV-Chipkaart doesn't cap either. Some cities offer day tickets but hardly anyone uses them.

I also don't see a significant problem with the only methods of payment in London being Oyster or contactless. Most people will use the latter, the former is there mainly for those who prefer cash. The one thing I think they should do better is child provision for children who don't live in London, though increasingly children aged above the free provision (up to age 11) have GoHenry or similar debit cards anyway - they need them, if nothing else, to pay for the bus to school if not far enough away for a free pass.

I'm not against capping, but for most use cases it's not essential either. Enthusiasts like it as they can ride round all day on trains and buses for a relatively low price. Most other people don't care about it if a couple of singles for their intended return journey (as most journeys are) is affordable, and almost nobody visiting London as a tourist and knocking around Zone 1 is going to hit the 1-6 cap anyway (though I'm aware there's a lower 1-2 one). I bet bus companies are selling hardly any day tickets while the £2 cap is in place.