• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TfL to take over most, if not all London suburban services

Status
Not open for further replies.

90sWereBetter

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2012
Messages
1,044
Location
Lost somewhere within Bank-Monument tube station,
The Standard said:
Embattled commuters should finally get more frequent and reliable train services after Transport for London confirmed today it would take control of the capital's suburban rail network.

The long-running campaign to persuade ministers to devolve powers over services should increase capacity, eventually bringing an end to the cattle truck conditions for millions of Londoners, and improve accessibility.

TfL plans to streamline fares and travel information across the whole suburban rail network, rebranding the services London Overground and turning the capital's transport map orange.

Commuter services running from Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Moorgate, Victoria, Waterloo and London Bridge, which has suffered some of the worst delays, would all be transferred under the plans.

With the capital's population set to rise from 8.6 million today to 10 million by 2030, the proposals should ensure the network is able to cope, especially in South London which is heavily reliant on surface rail.

The new era for rail travel was hailed a victory for Boris Johnson who has spearheaded the campaign, which has cross-party support and was first initiated by Ken Livingstone, to take over control of each route as its franchise comes up for renewal.

The Mayor told the Standard: "Our railways have been the workhorse of the London and South East economy since Victorian times.

"They're key to the day to day lives of millions of people and vital to our future prosperity, and that's exactly why this new partnership is such a seminal moment.

"By working closely together and taking on these new services, we're going to emulate the success of the London Overground and give the entire capital and surrounding areas the services they truly deserve."

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin added: “We are committed to making journeys better across London and the South East, and this new partnership represents a huge opportunity to transform travel by putting passengers where they should be – at the heart of the rail network."

The first route to come under the next Mayor's control will be Southeastern in 2018, followed by Southern, Thameslink and Great Northern services in 2021.

The South West trains franchise is currently under negotiation but is likely to include a "break clause" that means it could be taken over in 2019.

TfL, which will set up a joint management team with the Department of Transport, will run services which operate within the capital's boundaries while DfT officials will be responsible for the wider South East.

The Mayor's control could stretch as far as Sevenoaks and Dartford in the South East, Epsom and Croydon in the South, Hampton and Chessington in the West and Hertford and Welwyn Garden City in the North.

It could mean that more than 80 per cent of stations have a train every 15 minutes, up from 67 per cent today.

Since TfL took over suburban rail routes from Silverlink in 2007 and created London Overground, passenger numbers on the routes have increased sixfold and the network has become one of the most popular railways anywhere in the country.

The proposal means town halls, local enterprise partnerships and other regional bodies could play a more hands on role in how services are planned.

Unlike most of the existing franchise agreements, income from fares would be handed over to TfL to invest in the network, for example bringing in new walk-through trains with more doors and staffing 100 per cent of stations during operating hours.

However, huge sums would still be needed to bring the network up to scratch, especially across South London where demand is highest, at a time when TfL's finances will be under pressure.

City Hall insiders suggested cash for investment could also be raised from the land value increase around stations, as well as from Network Rail and the Government.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...ns-entire-suburban-rail-network-a3161586.html

Wow. I was expecting Southeastern to eventually give their suburban network up to London Overground, I wasn't expecting SWT and GTR to be part of any deal though.

Discuss.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Finally been announced then. And taking over when the work at London Bridge has finished - how convenient for TfL!!!
 

JaJaWa

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2013
Messages
1,711
Location
Does that mean Kent County Council have now agreed to allow TfL onto their territory as far as Sevenoaks and Dartford?

It's a joint partnership between TfL and the Department for Transport so I don't think the councils can refuse.
 

JaJaWa

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2013
Messages
1,711
Location
So the tube map is going to get even more cluttered?

As they're all going to be part of London Overground, they'll probably just put on the North London Line and Thameslink like they did when they were all British Rail. The other services will be shown on the Tube and Rail map.

Hopefully Thameslink will get a nice purple roundel like Crossrail!
 

urpert

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2015
Messages
1,167
Location
Essendine or between Étaples and Rang-du-Fliers
They'll probably just settle on the tube & rail map as it is now but with different colours.

It's about time TfL copied the Germans and gave each line or group of lines an S number. It gets a bit complicated south of the river, but they could use Sx for a group of services then Sxy for a particular route, e.g. S1 for Central London-Dartford with S11/S12/S13 for the various permutations of route.

Of course some lines like Victoria-Orpington are operated very much like S-bahn lines anyway (all stations served by every train, standard service pattern of 4tph going down to 2tph in the evenings, etc).
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
It's about time TfL copied the Germans and gave each line or group of lines an S number. It gets a bit complicated south of the river, but they could use Sx for a group of services then Sxy for a particular route, e.g. S1 for Central London-Dartford with S11/S12/S13 for the various permutations of route.

Of course some lines like Victoria-Orpington are operated very much like S-bahn lines anyway (all stations served by every train, standard service pattern of 4tph going down to 2tph in the evenings, etc).

You don't change what is familiar to not just Londoners but people all over the world just for changes sake.
 

skyhigh

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
6,366
The Mayor's control could stretch as far as Sevenoaks and Dartford in the South East, Epsom and Croydon in the South, Hampton and Chessington in the West and Hertford and Welwyn Garden City in the North.

So if I wanted to go from, say, St Pancras to Stevenage or Welwyn North (under the Thameslink programme) who would cover that?
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
5,260
Is the idea for everything to be branded as LO? If so I hope they aren't going to just change every line to orange because that map is going to become impossible to read if they do!
 

urpert

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2015
Messages
1,167
Location
Essendine or between Étaples and Rang-du-Fliers
You don't change what is familiar to not just Londoners but people all over the world just for changes sake.

I'm not suggesting changing the names of the existing Tube lines, just what they are currently calling 'London Suburban Metro' plus Overground.

Otherwise you get this sort of mess when trying to distinguish different lines (and that's without adding anything from south of the river):

newoverg.gif
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,659
So if I wanted to go from, say, St Pancras to Stevenage or Welwyn North (under the Thameslink programme) who would cover that?

North of the Thames they are only talking about Moorgate route services to TfL so it depends if you have direct TL service from St Pancras or what you change on to at Finsbury Park I.e. ex Moorgate or not...
 

Bill Badger

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2008
Messages
292
Have just skimmed through the prospectus, but I can't see anywhere which lines are affected. it mentions inner and outer-suburban services but I can't see these defined anywhere? Is it simply those solely within Greater London or does it stretch further? So in the South West it will presumably include Hampton Court and Chessignton South, but how about Shepperton or even Windsor?
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,659
Looking at the table on page 34 re the current service levels - I'm not sure where they get 8tph suburban into the Southeastern side of Victoria? Surely it's 4tph Orpington and 2tph Dartford?

Fewer Thameslink through Herne Hill post 2018...
 

traji00

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2009
Messages
229
This is a surprise. It'll be nice to see most services increase to >4tph (especially the late evening Southeastern services).

Am I the only one who feels that the ex-Silverlink/ELL upgrades have set the bar rather high for LO 'improvements'? Last year's Anglia takeover being an example of people expecting a magic wand wave.
 
Last edited:

RepTCTC

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2015
Messages
59
Odd one, this.

Am I the only one who feels that the ex-Silverlink/ELL upgrades have set the bar rather high for LO 'improvements'?
You beat me to it :)

It strikes me as one thing to take over and improve a small, run down backwater (albeit an urban one) like the bits of Silverlink, and quite another to get much improvement out of south London short distance commuter services.

There's also the other issue here of how priorities for future pathing work out - in a SWT-or-successor vs. TfL battle over paths into Waterloo, who wins, and therefore, which group of travelers win?
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
32,959
Have just skimmed through the prospectus, but I can't see anywhere which lines are affected. it mentions inner and outer-suburban services but I can't see these defined anywhere? Is it simply those solely within Greater London or does it stretch further? So in the South West it will presumably include Hampton Court and Chessignton South, but how about Shepperton or even Windsor?

There was a map of which routes they wanted knocking about last year.

Page 20 of this report: http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/devolving_rail_services_to_london-final-report.pdf

For SWT it included all those routes you mention, including Weybridge via Chertsey and Dorking. But NOT routes via Effingham Jn towards Guidford, or towards Woking.
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
Finally been announced then. And taking over when the work at London Bridge has finished - how convenient for TfL!!!

Very convenient for them to take the credit for something they've not even paid for. Typical of TfL lately.

If TfL act on the suggestions earlier this week then it's less seats on longer trains for all.

Ohand the loss of direct trains on some routes is coming to make junctions simple.

As they're all going to be part of London Overground, they'll probably just put on the North London Line and Thameslink like they did when they were all British Rail. The other services will be shown on the Tube and Rail map.

Hopefully Thameslink will get a nice purple roundel like Crossrail!

Er Thameslink is not going to be a part of it. Quietly clear states services out of Victoria or London Bridge. Besides which pretty most of the routes extend (and will extend) far beyond TfL areas making no sense for it to move to them. Expect and Thameslink and South Coast company come 2021.

So if I wanted to go from, say, St Pancras to Stevenage or Welwyn North (under the Thameslink programme) who would cover that?

Thameslink.

Does mean that TfL are now going to have some Desiro Cities.
 
Last edited:

GodAtum

On Moderation
Joined
11 Dec 2009
Messages
2,679
Have just skimmed through the prospectus, but I can't see anywhere which lines are affected. it mentions inner and outer-suburban services but I can't see these defined anywhere? Is it simply those solely within Greater London or does it stretch further? So in the South West it will presumably include Hampton Court and Chessignton South, but how about Shepperton or even Windsor?

Same i cannot see what stations will be taken over. What will happen to long distance services from Portsmouth/Brighton etc that stop at inner London stations. How about the slow stopping service from Guildford - Waterloo?
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,878
Location
York
There's also the other issue here of how priorities for future pathing work out - in a SWT-or-successor vs. TfL battle over paths into Waterloo, who wins, and therefore, which group of travelers win?

That's what struck me too. In particular, if this idea is extended to cover suburban services on the (former) GW, GC, LNW, Midland, and GN lines there are potential huge pathing conflicts.
 

EM2

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
7,522
Location
The home of the concrete cow
Having skim-read the prospectus, it appears that TfL's solution is 'throw shedloads of cash at the problem', with new signalling new trains, possible ATO and so on.
It's patently obvious that that is a solution that anyone could implement, if they were allowed to.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
7,580
It'll be very interesting how through services to outside the TfL area are dealt with, especially stopping services like the slow Charing Cross to Gravesend trains.
Will this be under Overground or Southeastern control? Will Southeastern take over when it reaches Dartford?
 

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,578
They will probably just re brand the overground lines based on the franchise name. So the North London Line will become the LO North London Line and the south west trains franchise will become the southwestern overground line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Er Thameslink is not going to be a part of it. Quietly clear states services out of Victoria or London Bridge. Besides which pretty most of the routes extend (and will extend) far beyond TfL areas making no sense for it to move to them. Expect and Thameslink and South Coast company come 2021.



.

It says in the document Thames link services out of Kings Cross are going to be part of it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top