TfW language policy

[enginedin]

If true this is a poor reflection of the Welsh educational system. Children who are not fluent in English will be seriously compromised in life, both in terms of employment opportunities and simply living what most people would call a normal life. Does your friend, for example, go to the cinema, watch television, read newspapers or magazines, or indeed books. Without good English you are severely limited in your choices.

this is, unfortunately, a naive misunderstanding of just how prevalent the Welsh language is in some communities. I know all sorts of professionals (including GPs and scientists with doctorates) who are welsh first-language, learnt english as a true second language, and don't consider themselves fluent in English, yet they've succeeded in their careers.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Croeso i... Telford Canolog

Well, for me that's the problem. I don't need to be welcomed to every stop! This bloats/bloated the messages as does the taking things with you and the Wedi Sortio. There should absolutely be announcements in Welsh, when in Wales, no question. Not sure about in England though but it doesn't hurt. The order is important - English first in England would make sense and maybe also in some other places, particularly in the south.

We are now approaching <station>. If you are leaving us here, please make sure you take all your luggage and personal items with you. Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales"
became
"We are now approaching <station>"

That's an improvement! I look forward to hearing that soon.

 

[Western Lord]

It would have been in both languages but the software is rubbish so the second probably got cut off.


I don’t believe that the will is there. TfW have taken a very literal approach to the legislation, even when services are outside Wales.

I can see that Welsh being announced first at an English station is a legitimate cause for grievance. However this thread is full of "I'd do everything in English only, everywhere". That's not on.


"All other things being equal they are more likely to give the Welsh speaker the job". Well yes, having one more skill than someone with an otherwise identical CV is going to push you ahead. Any extra languages you can learn will always help you in life.


Did anyone ask the Welsh if they wanted their children beaten for speaking Welsh at school? Except for the South Wales coalfield where migration was the cause, the reason Welsh is a minority language today is that it was beaten out of past generations of children.



In spoken English you change words all the time to make them flow in a sentence. In Welsh these changes form part of the written language too.


"Craffrwymo" means "brace", I believe. However as an order or instruction I think that it should have a suffix added.


Which is really annoying when the station CIS (which has been around for a very long time now) handles all this stuff without a problem.


That's not true at all. Just because you spoke to them briefly they are not necessarily fluent. When people are under stress you'll see how fluent they really are.

I have a German friend who I would regard as fluent, but she disagrees, there's a mental struggle going on unseen to me. Her messages are occasionally punctuated by random German words.


There used to be a load of "welcome aboard" and "thank you for travelling" type waffle. In both languages at every single station (including the request stop you just flew through at 15mph).


The full name of Porth is "y Porth" ("the gate") so there would be no mutation in this case. One vowel cannot follow another so you get "a'r Porth" or "i'r Porth"

If that wasn't the case though then:
Welcome to Porth = Croeso i Borth
Welcome to Borth = Croeso i Forth

Only a few letters (p, c, t) have an aspirate mutation so while "...and Porthmadog" becomes "...a Phorthmadog", "...and Benllech" just becomes "...a Benllech"


Being able to 'get by' in English while also having skills in other languages is far more valuable than being absolutely fluent in English but having no other strings to your bow.

Being able to "get by" in English in a country that is 80+ per cent English speaking would seem to put you at a disadvantage. The Welsh Government's attempt to increase the number of Welsh speakers is doomed to fail because the language is of no practical use to the majority of Welsh people.

 

[Krokodil]

That's an improvement! I look forward to hearing that soon.

I wish that it would become simply "safle nesaf"/"next stop" like on the buses but that would involve recording new announcements rather than just chopping up the existing files.

 

[enginedin]

would seem to put you at a disadvantage

...and as my examples show, it really does not put them at a disadvantage

 

[Western Lord]

this is, unfortunately, a naive misunderstanding of just how prevalent the Welsh language is in some communities. I know all sorts of professionals (including GPs and scientists with doctorates) who are welsh first-language, learnt english as a true second language, and probably don't consider themselves fluent in English, yet they've succeeded in their careers.

Of course there are places where the Welsh language is prevalent (but not many of them). Does your Welsh doctor read professional publications in Welsh? In a Welsh speaking community can you go into a bookshop and buy the latest best seller in Welsh?

 

[Krokodil]

Being able to "get by" in English in a country that is 80+ per cent English speaking would seem to put you at a disadvantage

Believe me, being a country of monoglots has put the English at a disadvantage on the world stage far more than a Welsh person having to think twice about the translation for "water meter".

Does your Welsh doctor read professional publications in Welsh?

They'll just have to take more time to read and process them, just as a French doctor would (I'm guessing that reading international publications is something they'd have to do). They're not fluent, but that doesn't mean that they have no English skills at all, far from it.

 

[enginedin]

In a Welsh speaking community can you go into a bookshop and buy the latest best seller in Welsh?

in some instances, yes (e.g. Harry Potter was translated into Welsh very quickly, and that's by far not the only example)

Does your Welsh doctor read professional publications in Welsh?

no, but that's no different to doctors in France wanting to read The Lancet or the BMJ: they are the key medical journals for medical professionals worldwide but are only published in English

(@Krokodil beat me to making exactly the same point and using the same linguistic example!)

 

[Egg Centric]

this is, unfortunately, a naive misunderstanding of just how prevalent the Welsh language is in some communities. I know all sorts of professionals (including GPs and scientists with doctorates) who are welsh first-language, learnt english as a true second language, and don't consider themselves fluent in English, yet they've succeeded in their careers.

Except they'd be stuck in Wales (I suppose this depends on your definition of "fluent"). At the very least, never truely comfortable anywhere else.

That might be fine for most people but those with more ambition will have to leave these communities entirely or settle - both of which are heartbreaking when it could so easily be solved.

 

[Western Lord]

I wish Welsh language enthusiasts the best in their endeavours to preserve the language, but the plain fact is that nobody in Wales NEEDS to speak Welsh, which probably makes it unique among countries having their own language.

 

[emoaconr]

Yet again, another thread descends into the usual Anglophile anti-Welsh sentiment, detached from any semblance of relevance to this forum or thread. Linguistic purism is futile and there's a very obvious reason why many parts of the world are hesitant to allow their own cultures to be subsumed into English-speaking ones. Whilst I value and encourage discussion of language and there is relevance to TfW's application of it, inevitably these conversations go off-topic rather quickly. To be quite honest, I won't be reading or replying to any further comments in this thread, where clearly some contributors are sadly misinformed or hold no valuable licence to be able to comment on matters which have no relevance to them.

 

[Cloud Strife]

If true this is a poor reflection of the Welsh educational system. Children who are not fluent in English will be seriously compromised in life, both in terms of employment opportunities and simply living what most people would call a normal life. Does your friend, for example, go to the cinema, watch television, read newspapers or magazines, or indeed books. Without good English you are severely limited in your choices.

It's not a matter of 'good' English, it's a matter of simply not using it in every day life. She doesn't need to use English on a daily basis, nor does she need English to get the vast majority of things done. Things like communication with HMRC are done in Welsh, communication with the council is in Welsh (Cyngor Gwynedd, the council even uses the Welsh name in English), Welsh Water is fully in Welsh, the list goes on. There's simply no reason to use English on a day to day basis, and her job is 100% in Welsh.

There's simply no disadvantage to not using English at a high professional level in her life. She can talk about chemistry in Welsh, why does she need to be able to do it in English?

As for 'normal life', how is she compromised? She does absolutely everything in Welsh on a day to day basis, everything is accessible, and there's English for situations where no Welsh translation is available. Yes, she wouldn't be able to do her job in English, but why does she need it when she lives in a hugely majority-Welsh speaking area and all the public services are delivered in Welsh? Even her MP, Liz Roberts from Plaid Cymru, works in Welsh in her constituency office. If anything, in her area, it's the monolingual English speakers who have huge problems.

Not everyone lives in an Anglophone bubble.

 

[Harpo]

the plain fact is that nobody in Wales NEEDS to speak Welsh

I’d suggest that’s not a judgement for an outsider.

As an Englishman, I definitely ‘get’ why we are considered arrogant.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I wish Welsh language enthusiasts the best in their endeavours to preserve the language, but the plain fact is that nobody in Wales NEEDS to speak Welsh, which probably makes it unique among countries having their own language.

Really? Not speaking Welsh in some parts of Wales puts you at a huge disadvantage, both in terms of work and in terms of social life. Monolingual English speakers have a very difficult time in some areas, simply because Welsh is the language of communication.

 

[Egg Centric]

It's not a matter of 'good' English, it's a matter of simply not using it in every day life. She doesn't need to use English on a daily basis, nor does she need English to get the vast majority of things done. Things like communication with HMRC are done in Welsh, communication with the council is in Welsh (Cyngor Gwynedd, the council even uses the Welsh name in English), Welsh Water is fully in Welsh, the list goes on. There's simply no reason to use English on a day to day basis, and her job is 100% in Welsh.

There's simply no disadvantage to not using English at a high professional level in her life. She can talk about chemistry in Welsh, why does she need to be able to do it in English?

As for 'normal life', how is she compromised? She does absolutely everything in Welsh on a day to day basis, everything is accessible, and there's English for situations where no Welsh translation is available. Yes, she wouldn't be able to do her job in English, but why does she need it when she lives in a hugely majority-Welsh speaking area and all the public services are delivered in Welsh? Even her MP, Liz Roberts from Plaid Cymru, works in Welsh in her constituency office. If anything, in her area, it's the monolingual English speakers who have huge problems.

Not everyone lives in an Anglophone bubble.

Because she's stuck in Wales. If she spoke English she'd be able to take the same job almost anywhere in the world in an international school. With Welsh I think there's a tiny bit of Argentina?

Now that may be perfectly fine for her but deliberately limiting one's kids like that when there's such an easy alternative I cannot understand

 

[enginedin]

Except they'd be stuck in Wales (I suppose this depends on your definition of "fluent"). At the very least, never truely comfortable anywhere else.

given in my examples they all did their professional training in England (e.g. you can't do a Welsh medium medical degree) that's a very disingenuous assumption

 

[ainsworth74]

I strikes me that there might need to be a bit of give and take on both sides of this issue. Welsh is not, and nor should it, go away as a language and deserves to be used widely in the majority of circumstances. To denigrate it and minimise it due to a lack of use is just building on the way that we English deliberately tried to stamp out the language over many centuries. To then go on and say "Well no-one uses it so why should it have any prominence" is quite hypocritical when we're the reason it's not well used!

Equally, though, those who are proponents of the Welsh language probably do need to accept that a great many people who live, work and visit Wales don't speak Welsh, or only speak a few words or phrases of Welsh and so where there is a need to clear and prompt communication Welsh might need to take a slightly less prominent position. Not lose it's spot entirely but just a small step back to ensure that the majority of people are able to get the information that they need in a timely fashion.

With that in mind it doesn't seem particularly problematic to me that audio announcements on trains and stations in Wales should probably be English first (though if there are any stations where Welsh is the dominant language that order should absolutely be reversed) with Welsh coming second. As part of that I would also so that English TOCs who serve Wales should, when in Wales, include Welsh announcements on their trains. I don't see any reason why an Avanti service to Holyhead shouldn't make Welsh announcements in Wales and have the onboard information screens provide Welsh alongside English. Though equally I'm not sure that Welsh announcements in England make all that much sense so again, when in England I would tend to suggest that Welsh should be omitted.

As part of that though, there absolutely needs to be work to reduce the length of the announcements that are played and probably jig around with the order a little bit so they are far more consense and get the information to those who need it in their language as swiftly as possible.

For example if I'm at Swansea at 1345 when perhaps the train to Cardiff Central should be announced in the following way:

"The next train from platform 1 will be the 1352 Transport for Wales service to Cardiff Central" - Then repeated in Welsh

"This train will call at Neath, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend and Cardiff Central" - Repeated in Welsh

Cut out any other extraneous rubbish and stick the raw facts. I'd also expect the 1422 to London Paddington to be making Welsh announcements whilst it's in Wales as well!

Welsh should absolutely feature in Wales on trains, all of them, but I do think we've got to a slightly odd situation where the quite correct attempt to protect and indeed build up Welsh has started to get in the way of clear and concise communication. There must be a way that might not make everyone happy but can at least be an improvement on where we are now and at least make sure that everyone can live with the solution!

 

[Egg Centric]

given in my examples they all did their professional training in England (e.g. you can't do a Welsh medium medical degree) that's a very disingenuous assumption

Hence my caveat about what "fluent" means. To my mind anyone who can do a medical degree in English is probably more fluent than me.

 

[Krokodil]

Except they'd be stuck in Wales (I suppose this depends on your definition of "fluent"). At the very least, never truely comfortable anywhere else.

That might be fine for most people but those with more ambition will have to leave these communities entirely or settle - both of which are heartbreaking when it could so easily be solved.

As long as someone has enough English to pass an interview then once they've moved they'll quickly immerse and become truly fluent. Do you think that no one from non-English-speaking countries ever moves to the UK with the equivalent of the C grade I got in GCSE French, only becoming fluent once they're here?

but the plain fact is that nobody in Wales NEEDS to speak Welsh, which probably makes it unique among countries having their own language.

You could live in a lot of different countries and manage just on English. Perhaps the Swiss should standardise on English as their official language. It's commonly used as a lingua franca between speakers of the four native languages. Why should they maintain their own identity, eh?

 

[styles]

I strikes me that there might need to be a bit of give and take on both sides of this issue. Welsh is not, and nor should it, go away as a language and deserves to be used widely in the majority of circumstances. To denigrate it and minimise it due to a lack of use is just building on the way that we English deliberately tried to stamp out the language over many centuries. To then go on and say "Well no-one uses it so why should it have any prominence" is quite hypocritical when we're the reason it's not well used!

Equally, though, those who are proponents of the Welsh language probably do need to accept that a great many people who live, work and visit Wales don't speak Welsh, or only speak a few words or phrases of Welsh and so where there is a need to clear and prompt communication Welsh might need to take a slightly less prominent position. Not lose it's spot entirely but just a small step back to ensure that the majority of people are able to get the information that they need in a timely fashion.

Isn't this basically the reason Welsh public bodies don't promote Welsh-only language in their communications?

I'd suggest the balance is struck pretty well giving communications in both Welsh and English.

As to which comes first, I'm not really sure it makes a difference except perhaps in an emergency situation. So long as both the Welsh and the English announcements are read before a (non-emergency) action needs to be taken, I can't imagine it matters, practically, whether the Welsh or the English announcements come first.

I speak Welsh, albeit not to a high standard having only moved to Wales when I was 8. I don't think I've ever missed my stop because an announcement was made first in Welsh, or had to run for a train because a sign had the Welsh above the English.

Agree with the general point about sticking to 'raw facts' though. I know it's a bug bear of the forums that rail announcements have ended up so long-winded. I don't need a train manager to list the items for sale in the buffet car; I just need to know that it's in coach C. That's regardless of language really.

 

[Falcon1200]

Believe me, being a country of monoglots has put the English at a disadvantage on the world stage far more than a Welsh person having to think twice about the translation for "water meter".

Really? Surely speaking English is exactly the opposite, being a huge advantage, not just in the world's other English-speaking nations but because it is for many their second language of choice. And (I'm sure we've had this debate before) what other language should we learn?!!

Yes, she wouldn't be able to do her job in English, but why does she need it when she lives in a hugely majority-Welsh speaking area and all the public services are delivered in Welsh?

Not everyone lives in an Anglophone bubble.

Some apparently live in a Welshophone bubble!

 

[43096]

I strikes me that there might need to be a bit of give and take on both sides of this issue. Welsh is not, and nor should it, go away as a language and deserves to be used widely in the majority of circumstances. To denigrate it and minimise it due to a lack of use is just building on the way that we English deliberately tried to stamp out the language over many centuries. To then go on and say "Well no-one uses it so why should it have any prominence" is quite hypocritical when we're the reason it's not well used!

Equally, though, those who are proponents of the Welsh language probably do need to accept that a great many people who live, work and visit Wales don't speak Welsh, or only speak a few words or phrases of Welsh and so where there is a need to clear and prompt communication Welsh might need to take a slightly less prominent position. Not lose it's spot entirely but just a small step back to ensure that the majority of people are able to get the information that they need in a timely fashion.

With that in mind it doesn't seem particularly problematic to me that audio announcements on trains and stations in Wales should probably be English first (though if there are any stations where Welsh is the dominant language that order should absolutely be reversed) with Welsh coming second. As part of that I would also so that English TOCs who serve Wales should, when in Wales, include Welsh announcements on their trains. I don't see any reason why an Avanti service to Holyhead shouldn't make Welsh announcements in Wales and have the onboard information screens provide Welsh alongside English. Though equally I'm not sure that Welsh announcements in England make all that much sense so again, when in England I would tend to suggest that Welsh should be omitted.

As part of that though, there absolutely needs to be work to reduce the length of the announcements that are played and probably jig around with the order a little bit so they are far more consense and get the information to those who need it in their language as swiftly as possible.

For example if I'm at Swansea at 1345 when perhaps the train to Cardiff Central should be announced in the following way:

"The next train from platform 1 will be the 1352 Transport for Wales service to Cardiff Central" - Then repeated in Welsh

"This train will call at Neath, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend and Cardiff Central" - Repeated in Welsh

Cut out any other extraneous rubbish and stick the raw facts. I'd also expect the 1422 to London Paddington to be making Welsh announcements whilst it's in Wales as well!

Welsh should absolutely feature in Wales on trains, all of them, but I do think we've got to a slightly odd situation where the quite correct attempt to protect and indeed build up Welsh has started to get in the way of clear and concise communication. There must be a way that might not make everyone happy but can at least be an improvement on where we are now and at least make sure that everyone can live with the solution!

That’s a fair assessment. The core of the issue is overly long/verbose announcements that don’t complete in sufficient time.

The benchmark - as is often the case with railway - is Switzerland where SBB CFF FFS use four languages (German, French and Italian, plus English at least on long distance services). I would suggest TfW management need a visit to see/hear how it should be done.

 

[styles]

Really? Surely speaking English is exactly the opposite, being a huge advantage, not just in the world's other English-speaking nations but because it is for many their second language of choice. And (I'm sure we've had this debate before) what other language should we learn?!!

Some apparently live in a Welshophone bubble!

There appears to be an assumption made here which is that people who speak Welsh as their first language, and have working levels of English speaking, don't speak any other languages. The world does not entirely revolve around English, in fact it isn't even the most-spoken language.

In Gwynedd (a county where all schools teach Welsh as a primary language), people still learn French, Spanish, etc, and although I'm not aware of any statistics on it, may even do better with foreign languages (other than English), given how difficult modern English is to learn. Being a native Welsh speaker may actually be an advantage.

I think both the Anglophobe and Welshophone arguments are a little silly as they diminish reality to one vs another. There are places in Wales where Welsh is spoken as the first language, and in fact you may even be ostracised (rightly or wrongly) for not having multiple generations of Welsh heritage. People in these communities often speak better Welsh than they do English. That's not the fault of the education system, because that's not a fault. If you're speaking your native language to A* standard (or whatever the new GCSE grade is) then that's super. Equally, yes, if you get a train from Manchester to Chester and the train is never going to cross the border into Wales, it's neither here nor there whether the announcements are made in Welsh or not, or what order they're in; but then it seems an odd thing to get fixed up on given the announcements complete before arrival at the relevant station, etc. The fixation on this minor detail is what leads a lot of Welsh people to conclude that there is anti-Welsh sentiment, often from non-Welsh people.

That’s a fair assessment. The core of the issue is overly long/verbose announcements that don’t complete in sufficient time.

The benchmark - as is often the case with railway - is Switzerland where SBB CFF FFS use four languages (German, French and Italian, plus English at least on long distance services). I would suggest TfW management need a visit to see/hear how it should be done.

I don't disagree with the suggestion of a visit from TfW to e.g. SBB CFF FFS HQ for a chat about their announcement policy. I'm all for collaboration!

But equally, is there something specific in TfW announcements which you feel are unnecessary, inconvenient, or dare I say unsafe; which the likes of SBB CFF FFS don't have?

Most of this thread appears to be a broad complaint about Welsh being before English which I don't really think requires a week long meeting with Swiss counterparts to decide that maybe it should be English before Welsh.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Do the English announcements still generally end with a spurious "Thank you"? I'm assuming it's a Welsh language mannerism carried across to the English version, but it's not something you hear on other TOCs and it gets tedious after a while when you're already hearing twice as much as you would on English-only trains.

 

[Krokodil]

Really? Surely speaking English is exactly the opposite, being a huge advantage, not just in the world's other English-speaking nations but because it is for many their second language of choice. And (I'm sure we've had this debate before) what other language should we learn?!!

Speaking English is a useful skill. Being a monoglot however is definitely a disadvantage. Learning multiple languages enhances your cognitive abilities. In England the learning of second languages often doesn‘t start secondary school, it would be a lot easier if we started earlier.

But equally, is there something specific in TfW announcements which you feel are unnecessary, inconvenient, or dare I say unsafe; which the likes of SBB CFF FFS don't have?

The long pauses between each language. I'd also say that in the interest of brevity "we are now approaching..." should become "next stop...". Things which should be added in to follow the example Swiss trains are "request stop" and information about connections, though the latter is perhaps easier to do manually.

 

[styles]

The long pauses between each language. I'd also say that in the interest of brevity "we are now approaching..." should become "next stop...". Things which should be added in to follow the example Swiss trains are "request stop" and information about connections, though the latter is perhaps easier to do manually.

I'd agree with making those changes even on English-only language trains to be honest.

The further up example of 'croeso i' vs 'this is' to save a single syllable is probably a bit pedantic on the other hand.

 

[Krokodil]

Do the English announcements still generally end with a spurious "Thank you"? I'm assuming it's a Welsh language mannerism carried across to the English version, but it's not something you hear on other TOCs and it gets tedious after a while when you're already hearing twice as much as you would on English-only trains.

Nothing to do with bilingual announcements, just a pointless quirk.

 

[stadler]

Do the English announcements still generally end with a spurious "Thank you"? I'm assuming it's a Welsh language mannerism carried across to the English version, but it's not something you hear on other TOCs and it gets tedious after a while when you're already hearing twice as much as you would on English-only trains.

That is only the 150/153/158/175/230/769 trains that say "thank you" and their announcements are English only. They still do it but these trains are being rapidly withdrawn. On the 197/231/398/756/MK4 they use a different voice who does not say "thank you" after the announcements.

I actually really like the original Sprinter announcements. The "thank you" makes them sound so polite but they are also nice and short. The voice (Ruth Michell) is also so much better than the English language voice of the new trains (Elin Llwyd) and so much more pleasant to listen to. Despite being from Cornwall (and not speaking Welsh) i also find that Ruth is much better at pronouncing Welsh place names than Elin (who is from Wales) on the newer trains.

On the old trains you simply have three short simple announcements between each stop:

"The next station is x. Thank you."

"We will shortly be arriving at x. Thank you."

"We are now at x. This train is for x."

Compare that to the new 197/231/398/756/MK4 trains which have endless extremely long scripts in both English and Welsh which go on and on and on and constant annoying See It Say It Sorted announcements. TFW onboard announcements have gone so downhill. The older remaining 150s / 158s / 230s are so much nicer to travel on with their simple short announcements.

 

[43096]

That is only the 150/153/158/175/230/769 trains that say "thank you" and their announcements are English only. They still do it but these trains are being rapidly withdrawn. On the 197/231/398/756/MK4 they use a different voice who does not say "thank you" after the announcements.

I actually really like the original Sprinter announcements. The "thank you" makes them sound so polite but they are also nice and short. The voice (Ruth Michell) is also so much better than the English language voice of the new trains (Elin Llwyd) and so much more pleasant to listen to. Despite being from Cornwall (and not speaking Welsh) i also find that Ruth is much better at pronouncing Welsh place names than Elin (who is from Wales) on the newer trains.

On the old trains you simply have three short simple announcements between each stop:

"The next station is x. Thank you."

"We will shortly be arriving at x. Thank you."

"We are now at x. This train is for x."

Compare that to the new 197/231/398/756/MK4 trains which have endless extremely long scripts in both English and Welsh which go on and on and on and constant annoying See It Say It Sorted announcements. TFW onboard announcements have gone so downhill. The older remaining 150s / 158s / 230s are so much nicer to travel on with their simple short announcements.

What are they "thanking us" for? Putting up with pointless additional earspam?

I always thought it was completely unneccessary and grated somewhat as the voice sounded rather patronising.

 

[Krokodil]

and constant annoying See It Say It Sorted announcements

If you hear one of those it will have been manually activated.