TfW language policy

[slowroad]

I didn't think the 23% tells you much which is mostly why I ignored it. It's a bit like British people who have their phones set to French or Spanish to help them learn it, it really reflects people who'd like to learn Welsh, or would like to practice as well as those who use it as their primary language. The 3% is the language people actually use when they want to communicate something or just by muscle memory. It takes effort to pick English on the WiFi because it's the second option.

I strongly agree that Welsh should be available for people communicating with TfW, receiving correspondence etc. there's no reason not to and it's good to make Welsh available to people who would like to use it.

However, for things like announcements it becomes a bit dogmatic to make some very long announcements in Welsh only before acknowledging the English only speaking majority. Given that the number of people who only speak Welsh is negligible, what we be the disadvantage in changing the order of the announcement slightly. Instead of the whole announcement being in Welsh first, what about "The next train on Platform 1 will be the xx:xx to Cardiff Central" but in Welsh, repeating that in English, then doing the station calls in Welsh and then English. You still respect the legislation, while providing much better information for a majority of travellers.

Edit: I had a similar experience recently to someone above, where the Welsh announcement and Llandudno Junction was so long, and triggered quite late, that anyone only speaking English would've missed the train. Luckily there was a manual intervention and the announcement was made in English, but if the staff member wasn't around then people could've missed that train.

If a train crash was imminent would warnings to passengers be Welsh first? (They might not get round to the English version…..)

 

[Falcon1200]

Could a culturally-sensitive solution, similar to that used in Belgium, not be adopted? In the predominantly English-speaking (ie most) parts of Wales, announcements would be in English first and Welsh second; Vice-versa in the Welsh-speaking areas.

I've not seen any (recent) complaints about bi-lingualism in Scotland?

That would be because hardly anyone in Scotland actually uses Gaelic! As @DelW mentions above, Scottish stations have dual-language name signs, yet in my 32 years working for the railway up here nobody, absolutely nobody, ever used the Gaelic name. And more generally too; My local station, and therefore town, Neilston, is also apparently called Baille Neil, yet no-one here has ever called it that.

 

[6Gman]

I meant to post about this in the 197 thread last month and totally forgot.

I did a day around North Wales in April, Coast Line, Conwy Valley etc, all on 197s and the first 197 I got leaving Chester heading towards the coast failed to play the English part of the "This train is for" announcement on leaving Chester and again on leaving one of the stations along the coast, yet every other announcement was as it should be.

Cant remember the unit number but it was one with the standard plus section.

There are a number of "glitches" on the system (and weird mistranslations on much of the signage, but that's another matter).

The initial Welsh announcement is often part-repeated, along the lines of "This is the Transport for Wales service to .... Crewe. The Transport for Wales service to ..." (but in Welsh).

The only other criticism I would have is the lengthy pauses, in particular between the Welsh and English versions. The Welsh version tends to be a useful 3-4 minutes before arrival; by the time they get to the English version you're in the platform!

Another question for the Welsh speakers please - can you enlighten me why I have seen on the PIS on the mk4 sets trains heading to Manchester shown as Fanceinion, not Manceinion, and Cardiff as Gaerdydd, not Caerdydd. Also, in checking the spellings for this message I see that the new edition of the TfW West Wales to Swansea and Cardiff timetable (at least this tt, I haven't checked any others) shows Caerdydd as Chaerdydd.

I noticed that on a trip to Stockport on Thursday. And cannot offer an explanation.

There are contexts in which Caerdydd becomes Gaerdydd or even Nghaerdydd (they're called mutations) but they don't seem to apply here.

Cardiff - Caerdydd

To Cardiff - i Gaerdydd

In Cardiff - Yng Nghaerdydd

Nobody said it was easy!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

How many Welsh people really use the Welsh equivalents for English places? Was watching Welsh football (in Welsh) once and it was fun reading the scrolling score updates and trying to guess where they were.
Im not talking about places of historically murky Welsh v Englishness but places like Exeter.

Exeter is Caerwysg. Basically anywhere that was a Roman settlement tends to have a Romano British / Brittonic / Welsh name. Most Welsh speakers (myself included) would use ones such as Caer for Chester, Llundain for London, Caerfaddon for Bath etc. Others are much less used such as Caerliwelydd (Carlisle) or Caersallog (Salisbury). Ironically it's the ones with successful football teams that are most familiar!

 

[PeterC]

Thanks for that. When I first saw Fanceinion and Gaerdydd I wondered if it was due to a gremin in the software on the mk4s but I have seen it enough now to realise that those spellings were linguistically correct.

Referring to my previous post I have now checked all the new TfW timetables. It is only the West Wales to Swansea and Cardiff timetable that shows Caerdydd as Chaerdydd so I wonder if this is a mistake that escaped the proofreader.

We do it in spoken English too but don't incorporate them into the written language.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

God forbid a country / government tries to embrace its history.
I've not seen any (recent) complaints about bi-lingualism in Scotland?
Same people complaining about this are probably the same to complain about people moving to England and not 'emerging themselves in our culture'. Always expect others to bend to them

I’m not aware of any stations or trains where announcements drone on in Scottish Gaelic for several minutes before anything is heard in the language everyone understands (English)?

 

[sh24]

I'm not particularly bothered by announcements being made in Welsh first. It's not the most customer friendly but urgent announcements are usually made manually in English. The trains making announcements in Welsh whilst in England is a bit annoying but thankfully they've drastically cut down the announcements on the 197s.

I do however agree that the use of bold text for Welsh and normal (or even greyed out or less saturated) text for English is visually irritating and borders on illegible at times. Particularly bad in timetable booklets where there is a sea of bold and normal text. You would think their graphic designers could come up with a more elegant solution.

Agree - it's the text that I find challenging. It's certainly not showing equal status when the English is 50% less legible on a whole raft of signage.

 

[renegademaster]

Irish road signage does it well by having the English and Irish of equal size but of different fonts. Irish signage also tends to be a bit more concise the paragraphs you often see in wales.

 

[CeeJ]

I do wonder if the announcements would be better mixed, rather than wholly separate. E.g. 'This is the Transport for Wales service to...' in both languages, then 'Yn galw yn/Calling at: Welsh name/English name, Welsh name/English name' (followed by the usual stuff they add at the end!) Likewise could be applied to platform announcements - means for long announcements the key information is set out in both languages sooner.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I am all for using Welsh names for places actually in Wales but shouldn't there be a quid pro quo of using English names for places actually in England? This is the international timetable standard - even SNCF show 'London' rather than 'Londres' on the departure board at the GdN in Paris.

I confess to being irritated by seeing 'Amwythig' and 'Manceinion' on my trains!

 

[RedKing]

I’m not aware of any stations or trains where announcements drone on in Scottish Gaelic for several minutes before anything is heard in the language everyone understands (English)?

"Drone on" - such a romantic way to describe another language.

This you? - https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/british-holidaymaker-complains-of-too-many-spanish-at-benidorm-hotel

 

[mmh]

Another question for the Welsh speakers please - can you enlighten me why I have seen on the PIS on the mk4 sets trains heading to Manchester shown as Fanceinion, not Manceinion, and Cardiff as Gaerdydd, not Caerdydd. Also, in checking the spellings for this message I see that the new edition of the TfW West Wales to Swansea and Cardiff timetable (at least this tt, I haven't checked any others) shows Caerdydd as Chaerdydd.

Mutation.

The Mk4s do it correctly, sadly the new 197s don't.

The first letter may change depending on its gender and the previous word.

Holyhead = Caergybi
Welcome to Holyhead = Croeso i Gaergybi
Bangor and Holyhead = Bangor a Chaergybi

Annoyingly TFW had got this right on the Mk4s, but didn't bother on the "gwneud yng Nghymru" 197s. Avanti have sensibly worded their announcements in Welsh to (mostly) avoid mutations - prefixing stop names with "gorsaf" (station) so they don't need to change.

(Gwneud yng Nghymru - Made in Wales - is another mutation example. In = yn, Wales = Cymru)

These things aren't that difficult to accommodate, but TFW have seemed to give up, sadly.

Agree - it's the text that I find challenging. It's certainly not showing equal status when the English is 50% less legible on a whole raft of signage.

As I tried to explain earlier, but sadly knew I'd be ignored, "equal" is irrelevant, and meaningless.

How on earth do people manage on holiday at airports? Hint: they do.

Irish road signage does it well by having the English and Irish of equal size but of different fonts. Irish signage also tends to be a bit more concise the paragraphs you often see in wales.

Also the approach taken in the Scottish highlands. It's a terrible approach, frankly.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

"Drone on" - such a romantic way to describe another language.

This you? - https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/british-holidaymaker-complains-of-too-many-spanish-at-benidorm-hotel

Are you one of those types that deliberately look for ways to “cancel” a person by jumping at the chance to accuse/portray them of disliking a culture or community?

At the fairly young age of 21 I have travelled to forty-three countries and lived in four (including four years living in Wales), so I don’t appreciate such sweeping assumptions as someone deeply passionate and interested in different cultures, purely because I am realistic about the practicalities of Welsh always coming before English as a law. It’s reminiscent of the time I, a man in a same-sex relationship at the time, was accused of being homophobic by a straight woman, because I said I disliked a local gay bar where I was once assaulted. People love to look for ways to villanise others even where there is great irony or hypocrisy.

The point I was simply making is, practicality is what should be prioritised in any circumstances where the purpose is convenience and ease of access, such as public transport, and realistically, if pretty much all Welsh speakers also understand English, and the vast majority of customers using Wales’ transport understand English but not Welsh, it does not make sense to air a three minute long train announcement first whereby 75% of the platform do not understand it yet the 25% who do would have understood it were it in English anyway! Many times when I have travelled on TfW, the Welsh announcements at stations have droned on for so long that the train is moving again by the time the English one airs!

And currently, TfW services in Cheshire, Greater Manchester, Shropshire and soon West Midlands still prioritise Welsh first. Yet I notice those trying to be sanctimonious by telling us that Welsh should come first in Wales do not mind when English does not come first in England, and that is a double standard which I attribute wholly to virtue signalling and the shallow reality of those who claim to feel strongly about such issues. Trying to portray those who think differently as repellent to other cultures (xenophobic, basically) by comparing them to that article is frankly very poor.

 

[Egg Centric]

Are you one of those types that deliberately look for ways to “cancel” a person by jumping at the chance to accuse/portray them of disliking a culture or community?

At the fairly young age of 21 I have travelled to forty-three countries and lived in four (including four years living in Wales), so I don’t appreciate such sweeping assumptions as someone deeply passionate and interested in different cultures, purely because I am realistic about the practicalities of Welsh always coming before English as a law. It’s reminiscent of the time I, a man in a same-sex relationship at the time, was accused of being homophobic by a straight woman, because I said I disliked a local gay bar where I was once assaulted. People love to look for ways to villanise others even where there is great irony or hypocrisy.

The point I was simply making is, practicality is what should be prioritised in any circumstances where the purpose is convenience and ease of access, such as public transport, and realistically, if pretty much all Welsh speakers also understand English, and the vast majority of customers using Wales’ transport understand English but not Welsh, it does not make sense to air a three minute long train announcement first whereby 75% of the platform do not understand it yet the 25% who do would have understood it were it in English anyway! Many times when I have travelled on TfW, the Welsh announcements at stations have droned on for so long that the train is moving again by the time the English one airs!

And currently, TfW services in Cheshire, Greater Manchester, Shropshire and soon West Midlands still prioritise Welsh first. Yet I notice those trying to be sanctimonious by telling us that Welsh should come first in Wales do not mind when English does not come first in England, and that is a double standard which I attribute wholly to virtue signalling and the shallow reality of those who claim to feel strongly about such issues. Trying to portray those who think differently as repellent to other cultures (xenophobic, basically) by comparing them to that article is frankly very poor.

It is incredibly difficult to discuss this subject dispassionately because of a bunch of extremists most of us don't have to bother with if we don't get involved in the arguments.

All I feel genuinely strongly about is that bringing up kids in the UK who don't speak English fluently is tantamount to child abuse. Fortunately that doesn't seem to actually be something that happens - the minority language speakers will still speak English.

At that point one very much has to wonder what the point in the other language is. But if it's what people want then so be it. And if it's not then it's easy enough to change democratically. In principle at least even if in practice there are the effects I refer to.

 

[stadler]

I would get rid of Welsh announcements entirely if i was in charge. They are completely unnecessary and just make the announcements ridiculously long. I know they have arguments about wanting to preserve the language but that does not mean everything should be bilingual.

There is not a single person who speaks Welsh who does not also speak fluent English. Every single Welsh speaker is also perfectly fluent in English. Therefore every Welsh speaker is more than capable of perfectly understanding announcements in English.

Bilingual announcements in other countries actually have a purpose as they provide information to people who do not speak the language. Many countries where English is not an official language also have the announcements in English so that foreigners can understand them. Then some countries speak multiple languages in different regions and people from other regions do not speak the other language fluently. So other examples of bilingual announcements actually serve a real purpose of giving people information that they would not understand or find difficult to understand in the other language. But this does not apply for the Welsh announcements as all the Welsh speakers speak and understand English fluently. So it is entirely done for political reasons and not actually because it is necessary for passengers.

 

[tfw756rider]

I'm not particularly bothered by announcements being made in Welsh first. It's not the most customer friendly but urgent announcements are usually made manually in English. The trains making announcements in Welsh whilst in England is a bit annoying but thankfully they've drastically cut down the announcements on the 197s.

In what way?

Instead of the whole announcement being in Welsh first, what about "The next train on Platform 1 will be the xx:xx to Cardiff Central" but in Welsh, repeating that in English, then doing the station calls in Welsh and then English. You still respect the legislation, while providing much better information for a majority of travellers.

That's actually not a bad idea.

I'd also like to know why Newport is allowed to be the only station with the system set to "English then Welsh". Yes, it's a "low Welsh-speaking" area, but still, how does it get away with being the exception?

====================

Additionally, in case anyone in here doesn't know this, in 2014, Cardiff Queen Street was temporarily set to English-only (same as Shrewsbury, Chester, Hereford etc.) - that didn't go down well with the then-First Minister.

Platform 5 had just been re-opened (after having been closed in the 70s) and the announcements were literally cutting each other out - what else were they supposed to do while waiting for the PA system to be converted from single-circuit to multi-zone?

There is not a single person who speaks Welsh who does not also speak fluent English. Every single Welsh speaker is also perfectly fluent in English. Therefore every Welsh speaker is more than capable of perfectly understanding announcements in English.

That's not actually true. One man I tried talking to once, I could only speak English and he could only speak Welsh, so it didn't work. Granted he was a farmer and therefore it was highly unlikely he'd be using trains, but we can't assume that's the case for any other Welsh-only-speaker. Those statements of yours just aren't correct.

All I feel genuinely strongly about is that bringing up kids in the UK who don't speak English fluently is tantamount to child abuse. Fortunately that doesn't seem to actually be something that happens - the minority language speakers will still speak English.

At that point one very much has to wonder what the point in the other language is. But if it's what people want then so be it. And if it's not then it's easy enough to change democratically. In principle at least even if in practice there are the effects I refer to.

I'm not sure how it would be child abuse? In Wales some young children initially only speak Welsh, and then they learn English by the time they're older children. It's actually common in some areas of the country.

The other language may seem pointless to you, but that's OK, you don't have to get it

At the fairly young age of 21 I have travelled to forty-three countries

43, how?!

And currently, TfW services in Cheshire, Greater Manchester, Shropshire and soon West Midlands still prioritise Welsh first.

Some 197s already work in the West Midlands (on and off).

Croeso i... Telford Canolog. Byddwn yn teithio i... Birmingham Rhyngwladol.

 

[zero]

As an example, you can have Penarth, Benarth, Phenarth or Mhenarth depending on the mutation.

Chaerdydd and Gaerdydd are both valid depending when used for Caerdydd.

So at Cardiff Central, you hear “Y trên nesaf i gyrraedd platfform 8 bydd y gwasanaeth Trafnidiaeth Cymru i Benarth. Ym galw yn Grangetown, Dingle Road a Phenarth.”

There is something I'd like to understand about this, what if there are stations called Benarth and Phenarth?

Would they mutate to something else when saying "i ___" and "a ___"? If not how can you tell the difference? Or can the base form of Welsh names only start with P and not B/Ph/Mh?

 

[tfw756rider]

I do wonder if the announcements would be better mixed, rather than wholly separate. E.g. 'This is the Transport for Wales service to...' in both languages, then 'Yn galw yn/Calling at: Welsh name/English name, Welsh name/English name' (followed by the usual stuff they add at the end!) Likewise could be applied to platform announcements - means for long announcements the key information is set out in both languages sooner.

Really not a bad idea.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would they mutate to something else when saying "i ___" and "a ___"? If not how can you tell the difference? Or can the base form of Welsh names only start with P and not B/Ph/Mh?

Well, there's a Porth in the Rhondda Valley and a Borth in Ceredigion in Mid Wales. Think both the letters 'P' and 'B' (amongst a few others) can be mutated in the Welsh language.

 

[renegademaster]

. It's a terrible approach, frankly.

Why?

 

[Harpo]

As an Englishman I’m jealous of the passion the Welsh have for their identity.

Wales has a wonderful national anthem while we’re stuck with the mournful dirge of ‘God save the (insert gender)’.

The Welsh have a dragon flag that inspires, we’re torn between a mongrel multi-nation lash-up that often ends up upside down, or a simple cross that causes issues of racist overtones.

Personally, I love the pub I go to a few times a year where Welsh is as prevalent as English in the chatter. It reminds me (rightly) that I’m the foreigner.

But ‘Telford Canolog’?? Really?

 

[styles]

Irish road signage does it well by having the English and Irish of equal size but of different fonts. Irish signage also tends to be a bit more concise the paragraphs you often see in wales.

This is also what Scotland does with Gaelic. Well, same font, different colour, which I think helps even more in it standing out, except perhaps to people with monochrome vision. I'd probably stick one of them in italics (as Ireland do) as well as different colour personally.

 

[Cloud Strife]

There is not a single person who speaks Welsh who does not also speak fluent English. Every single Welsh speaker is also perfectly fluent in English. Therefore every Welsh speaker is more than capable of perfectly understanding announcements in English.

This is actually completely wrong. Many school children in Wales don't speak English on the same level as Welsh, as they attend Welsh-medium schools and their exposure to English is quite limited when it comes to communication. A good friend of mine is quite noticeably weaker in English than in Welsh: she can banter in the pub like anyone else, but you can clearly see that she works in Welsh and did her entire education in Welsh, as she doesn't have the vocabulary for dealing with more complicated topics. For instance, she's very uncomfortable with topics like pensions in English, and she simply doesn't know (or use) the breadth of English that English native speakers use on a daily basis. I remember one night in the pub when we were grilling her on things like water meters, and she uses some very strange constructions in English to describe things.

She comes from a Welsh speaking family, her town is mostly Welsh speaking, and the idea that she's 'perfectly fluent in English' is just wrong. If she was to write a complaint to TfW, it would be in Welsh, not English.

And anyway, Welsh is an official language in Wales, so why wouldn't they have Welsh announcements?

 

[vicbury]

In what way?

Since the 197s were first rolled out, the announcements have gotten more succinct and to the point, dropping unnecessary pleasantries and repetition.

 

[Parallel]

Well, there's a Porth in the Rhondda Valley and a Borth in Ceredigion in Mid Wales. Think both the letters 'P' and 'B' (amongst a few others) can be mutated in the Welsh language.

Borth is said as ‘Y Borth’ in the Welsh announcements and Porth is ‘Y Porth’. However if it was an issue, they could probably add a suffix like they do for similar English sounding stations - on departure screens they list ‘Garth Powys’ and ‘Garth Mid Glam’ for example.

 

[Lewisham2221]

In what way?

"We are now approaching <station>. If you are leaving us here, please make sure you take all your luggage and personal items with you. Thank you for travelling with Transport for Wales"
became
"We are now approaching <station>"

"Welcome on board Transport for Wales. We will be travelling to <station>"
became
"We will be travelling to <station>"

(All bilingual, obviously)

 

[enginedin]

Another question for the Welsh speakers please

Mutation

As an example, you can have Penarth, Benarth, Phenarth or Mhenarth depending on the mutation.

Indeed! More examples, for those of you who have ever done any hill walking in North Wales: Mynydd Mawr is the name of several hills, and translates to Big Mountain (! Yes yes, not much creativity there by our ancestors), but Glyder Fawr means "Big Glyder", because the M of Mawr mutates to a F, and Glyder Fach means Little Glyder, but Tryfan Bach means Little Tryfan. I think the other common mutations have been mentioned (especially the very weird one of a C mutating to nGh - so in some contexts you see Conwy as nGhonwy and Cymru as nGhymu)

My late partner, who was from Fife and was very proud of her Scots ancestry, was absolutely incensed by the policy of applying Gaelic names to public buildings and other properties (including railway stations) in her home area, which hadn't been Gaelic-speaking in anyone's memory. She considered it a deliberately provocative policy by the SNP.

Yes - there's a large debate in Edinburgh about the provision of Gaelic first language education. There are a couple of Gaelic language primary schools, and one of the secondary schools has a Gaelic language centre (but, as far as I understand, the Gaelic language students are split between the English and Gaelic parts of the school). However, there's an argument that the proposed fully Gaelic secondary school shouldn't go ahead because the Lothians weren't a Gaelic language area. The actual working assumption behind the rise in Gaelic in Edinburgh is (ironically) English people moving up to Edinburgh and being sympathetic to what they think is culturally accurate, knowing bilingualism is good academically, and putting their kids through Gaelic language education...

In the Highlands, the Council have actually been pretty sensitive and only put bilingual roadsigns in the areas where Gaelic was spoken.

Probably the most sanctimonious thing I’ve read all day.

100%. Reminds me of this twitter thread which went a little viral: https://x.com/Effiedeans/status/1301795603001769986

The English language is not treated equally by TFW as they write it second on signage and always make the Welsh text bolder. Announcements in Wales are always in Welsh first despite the fact that no more than 18% of the population of Wales can understand Welsh. (I had to run like hell last week because of a last minute platform switch with the train pulling in on another platform by the time it got to the English announcement).

I responded to a similar complaint about TfW's policy here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/pontypool-and-new-inn-car-park.279715/#post-7214329

 

[chrisjo]

Mutation. A complicated grammatical rule that, I presume, native Welsh speakers do automatically but learners like me are still no nearer understanding. Makes life interesting!

And one you've all come across, though you maybe didn't know it. Mair is the welsh version of Mary. Llanfair is her church.

 

[Western Lord]

This is actually completely wrong. Many school children in Wales don't speak English on the same level as Welsh, as they attend Welsh-medium schools and their exposure to English is quite limited when it comes to communication. A good friend of mine is quite noticeably weaker in English than in Welsh: she can banter in the pub like anyone else, but you can clearly see that she works in Welsh and did her entire education in Welsh, as she doesn't have the vocabulary for dealing with more complicated topics. For instance, she's very uncomfortable with topics like pensions in English, and she simply doesn't know (or use) the breadth of English that English native speakers use on a daily basis. I remember one night in the pub when we were grilling her on things like water meters, and she uses some very strange constructions in English to describe things.

She comes from a Welsh speaking family, her town is mostly Welsh speaking, and the idea that she's 'perfectly fluent in English' is just wrong. If she was to write a complaint to TfW, it would be in Welsh, not English.

And anyway, Welsh is an official language in Wales, so why wouldn't they have Welsh announcements?

If true this is a poor reflection of the Welsh educational system. Children who are not fluent in English will be seriously compromised in life, both in terms of employment opportunities and simply living what most people would call a normal life. Does your friend, for example, go to the cinema, watch television, read newspapers or magazines, or indeed books. Without good English you are severely limited in your choices.

 

[Krokodil]

My (very possibly faulty) memory tells me that the automated PA announcements were entirely in Welsh. That is unlikely and I suppose they were made in both languages,

It would have been in both languages but the software is rubbish so the second probably got cut off.

They just need better PIS/software onboard their trains

I don’t believe that the will is there. TfW have taken a very literal approach to the legislation, even when services are outside Wales.

I can see that Welsh being announced first at an English station is a legitimate cause for grievance. However this thread is full of "I'd do everything in English only, everywhere". That's not on.

TFW talk the talk about being an Equal Opportunity employer yet for those jobs where they don’t say that Welsh is essential, they put this:> "The ability to speak/write Welsh would make a great addition to your application, but it is not essential for this role.” So, in other words, all things being equal, they are more likely to give the Welsh speaker the job. That discriminates against 82% of the population of Wales.

"All other things being equal they are more likely to give the Welsh speaker the job". Well yes, having one more skill than someone with an otherwise identical CV is going to push you ahead. Any extra languages you can learn will always help you in life.

The present Welsh Government have a policy of increasing the number of Welsh speakers yet nobody asked the people of Wales whether they wanted to learn Welsh.

Did anyone ask the Welsh if they wanted their children beaten for speaking Welsh at school? Except for the South Wales coalfield where migration was the cause, the reason Welsh is a minority language today is that it was beaten out of past generations of children.

Another question for the Welsh speakers please - can you enlighten me why I have seen on the PIS on the mk4 sets trains heading to Manchester shown as Fanceinion, not Manceinion, and Cardiff as Gaerdydd, not Caerdydd. Also, in checking the spellings for this message I see that the new edition of the TfW West Wales to Swansea and Cardiff timetable (at least this tt, I haven't checked any others) shows Caerdydd as Chaerdydd.

Mutation. A complicated grammatical rule that, I presume, native Welsh speakers do automatically but learners like me are still no nearer understanding. Makes life interesting!

In spoken English you change words all the time to make them flow in a sentence. In Welsh these changes form part of the written language too.

If a train crash was imminent would warnings to passengers be Welsh first? (They might not get round to the English version…..)

"Craffrwymo" means "brace", I believe. However as an order or instruction I think that it should have a suffix added.

The Mk4s do it correctly, sadly the new 197s don't.

Which is really annoying when the station CIS (which has been around for a very long time now) handles all this stuff without a problem.

There is not a single person who speaks Welsh who does not also speak fluent English. Every single Welsh speaker is also perfectly fluent in English.

That's not true at all. Just because you spoke to them briefly they are not necessarily fluent. When people are under stress you'll see how fluent they really are.

I have a German friend who I would regard as fluent, but she disagrees, there's a mental struggle going on unseen to me. Her messages are occasionally punctuated by random German words. Sometimes there's a hybrid - apparently the "steamlok" wasn't on the Jacobite when she went to see it at Glenfinnan. As long as we each know what the other means, what's the harm?

In what way?

There used to be a load of "welcome aboard" and "thank you for travelling" type waffle. In both languages at every single station (including the request stop you just flew through at 15mph).

There is something I'd like to understand about this, what if there are stations called Benarth and Phenarth?

Would they mutate to something else when saying "i ___" and "a ___"? If not how can you tell the difference? Or can the base form of Welsh names only start with P and not B/Ph/Mh?

The full name of Porth is "y Porth" ("the gate") so there would be no mutation in this case. One vowel cannot follow another so you get "a'r Porth" or "i'r Porth"

If that wasn't the case though then:
Welcome to Porth = Croeso i Borth
Welcome to Borth = Croeso i Forth

Only a few letters (p, c, t) have an aspirate mutation so while "...and Porthmadog" becomes "...a Phorthmadog", "...and Benllech" just becomes "...a Benllech"

If true this is a poor reflection of the Welsh educational system. Children who are not fluent in English will be seriously compromised in life, both in terms of employment opportunities and simply living what most people would call a normal life. Does your friend, for example, go to the cinema, watch television, read newspapers or magazines, or indeed books. Without good English you are severely limited in your choices.

Being able to 'get by' in English while also having skills in other languages is far more valuable than being absolutely fluent in English but having no other strings to your bow.