TFW Liverpool-Llandudno/Cardiff

[Luke McDonnell]

Hi,

Is the Liverpool - Chester via Runcorn service still due to be extended to Llandudno and Cardiff? Is this still due to take place from December this year as I was planning to travel to Llandudno from Liverpool South Parkway but the current 2 hourly service coupled with the change at Chester made this less viable?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hi,

Is the Liverpool - Chester via Runcorn service still due to be extended to Llandudno and Cardiff? Is this still due to take place from December this year as I was planning to travel to Llandudno from Liverpool South Parkway but the current 2 hourly service coupled with the change at Chester made this less viable?

Looks like it will be December 2024 before that comes in.
It seems to be about the last deployment of the 197 fleet, after the Cambrian ETCS units.

 

[craigybagel]

TfW have confirmed their planned increases from December 2023 have been postponed to 2024 owing to delays in the introduction of their new fleets.

 

[Jez]

TfW have confirmed their planned increases from December 2023 have been postponed to 2024 owing to delays in the introduction of their new fleets.

Does this include everything that was due to be increased in December 2023? As some routes such as Swanline going hourly wasn't mentioned in the updated plans. They didn't say whether this would still go ahead or not. I know they definitely mentioned Liverpool.

 

[craigybagel]

Does this include everything that was due to be increased in December 2023? As some routes such as Swanline going hourly wasn't mentioned in the updated plans. They didn't say whether this would still go ahead or not. I know they definitely mentioned Liverpool.

Hourly Swanline and Liverpool - Llandudno (but not Cardiff) were both part of the updated 2023 plans that were published and then later removed a few months ago. I don't know exactly what's being kept and what's being postponed, we'll have to watch this space.

 

[Llandudno]

Hourly Swanline and Liverpool - Llandudno (but not Cardiff) were both part of the updated 2023 plans that were published and then later removed a few months ago. I don't know exactly what's being kept and what's being postponed, we'll have to watch this space.

Still no sign of the Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester service having its hourly service reinstated, very poor considering the £millions of mostly English tax payers money spent on reopening the line…!

 

[Adam Evans]

TfW confirmed a few days ago on their website that the Liverpool - Chester service will return to hourly frequency from December 2023.

However the Llandudno extension has been postponed until at least May 2024.

December 2023 timetable and service update

We know that lots of things have changed in recent years but our ambition to build a railway that meets the needs of current and future generations remains constant. Our railway is critical to making sustainable transport the easiest way for people to travel across Wales and its borders.

news.tfw.wales

 

[Llandudno]

TfW confirmed a few days ago on their website that the Liverpool - Chester service will return to hourly frequency from December 2023.

However the Llandudno extension has been postponed until at least May 2024.

December 2023 timetable and service update

We know that lots of things have changed in recent years but our ambition to build a railway that meets the needs of current and future generations remains constant. Our railway is critical to making sustainable transport the easiest way for people to travel across Wales and its borders.

news.tfw.wales

At least 2024 or never….?

 

[Murpho]

TfW confirmed a few days ago on their website that the Liverpool - Chester service will return to hourly frequency from December 2023.

However the Llandudno extension has been postponed until at least May 2024.

December 2023 timetable and service update

We know that lots of things have changed in recent years but our ambition to build a railway that meets the needs of current and future generations remains constant. Our railway is critical to making sustainable transport the easiest way for people to travel across Wales and its borders.

news.tfw.wales

At this point I'm more convinced its never going to happen... Hopefully I'm proven wrong.

 

[rich.davies]

It seems that the morning Wrexham to Liverpool via Chester has been removed also. Not showing on RTT the past few days.

 

[frodshamfella]

Still no sign of the Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester service having its hourly service reinstated, very poor considering the £millions of mostly English tax payers money spent on reopening the line…!

Quite, and the service has proved popular even with the poor service levels. I wish they would get on with it.

 

[markymark2000]

It seems that the morning Wrexham to Liverpool via Chester has been removed also. Not showing on RTT the past few days.

Wrexham to Liverpool is a busy flow of passengers as well. If they don't do the Cardiff trips, they should definitely extend the Halton Curve train to Wrexham.

 

[frodshamfella]

They are not developing the potential of the Halton Curve. Lots of promises at the beginning, but we still have a Covid Service.

 

[childwallblues]

It seems that the morning Wrexham to Liverpool via Chester has been removed also. Not showing on RTT the past few days.

It is back tomorrow. I presume that the Wrexham General to Chester leg was cancelled due to the engineertng work taking place around Wrexham General.

 

[Esker-pades]

It's all still planned to happen once the timetable re-write associated with TfW's new rolling stock is introduced.

 

[Parjon]

TfW confirmed a few days ago on their website that the Liverpool - Chester service will return to hourly frequency from December 2023.

However the Llandudno extension has been postponed until at least May 2024.

December 2023 timetable and service update

We know that lots of things have changed in recent years but our ambition to build a railway that meets the needs of current and future generations remains constant. Our railway is critical to making sustainable transport the easiest way for people to travel across Wales and its borders.

news.tfw.wales

I would be interested to know what has happened to the subsidy money provided by Merseytravel to get this service embedded. I understand that the service was unavoidably disrupted post year 1, but as it has yet to returned to hourly I feel that we have only received 1 year out of this deal, rather than four.

It's disappointing that TfW won't be bolder. They complain that only the Welsh Marches line does well financially, when there are two major cities they can link together exclusively.

 

[dk1]

They are not developing the potential of the Halton Curve. Lots of promises at the beginning, but we still have a Covid Service.

Hopefully TfW will eventually but they have bigger fish to fry at the moment. That route is way down the list of priorities for them.

 

[markymark2000]

It should have been given to Northern, not TFW until such time that the route is ready to run into Wales.

Northerns Liverpool crew ready sign the route (based off the driver & guard route knowledge threads on this forum) and they sign 150s and 156s which could do the route. And they have 195s if they can be signed off on the route.

 

[Parjon]

It should have been given to Northern, not TFW until such time that the route is ready to run into Wales.

I don't believe TfW was the local choice. Probably a political decision at DfT.

 

[frodshamfella]

It should have been given to Northern, not TFW until such time that the route is ready to run into Wales.

Northerns Liverpool crew ready sign the route (based off the driver & guard route knowledge threads on this forum) and they sign 150s and 156s which could do the route. And they have 195s if they can be signed off on the route.

Quite if TFW cant get their act together. They promised all sorts , still waiting.

 

[Lewisham2221]

It should have been given to Northern, not TFW until such time that the route is ready to run into Wales.

Northerns Liverpool crew ready sign the route (based off the driver & guard route knowledge threads on this forum) and they sign 150s and 156s which could do the route. And they have 195s if they can be signed off on the route.

Do they have sufficient crew and rolling stock spare to operate the service?

 

[dk1]

Do they have sufficient crew and rolling stock spare to operate the service?

Very much doubt it but then why let facts get in the way? lol

 

[markymark2000]

Do they have sufficient crew and rolling stock spare to operate the service?

If you were to move it over right this second, no they likely wouldn't have the staff or units. Had it been planned from much earlier on though (as it should have been) or it Northern were given sufficient time now to sort out stock and staff, yes, I think they would be ok to run the service. The service takes 2 units on a self contained diagram so in terms of rolling stock, it's not a lot and given TFW have put anything and everything on the line so far, Northern could have sorted out rolling stock. After all, Northern were able to lease TFW 150 and if TFWs requirement was reduced and Northerns requirement was increased, it would have worked. Staffing wise of course it's more difficult but had it been planned properly, it would have been fine.

 

[RailWonderer]

It would be a bit stupid to stretch an already stretched fleet of ageing DMUs before enough of the new fleet has entered service. The 197s are already starting to head further south so at this pace there should be able enough by December 2023 for the extension.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't believe TfW was the local choice. Probably a political decision at DfT.

The main campaigner for reopening the Halton Curve was the Welsh Government, allowing Wales/Chester-Liverpool services again.
The deal was between DfT/NR/WG and the Liverpool City Region well before TfW started - George Osborne provided the money.
NR was funded to upgrade the Halton route (as part of the Lime St-Weaver Jn upgrade).
Liverpool City Region was to fund service start-up, ATW (franchisee at the time) was to provide stock and crews.
That was for an hourly Liverpool/Runcorn to Chester/Wrexham service, any extensions were down to WG/TfW.

Separately, WG also funded upgrades between Shrewsbury and Gobowen (after redoubling half of Chester-Wrexham).
At some point the frequency of TfW Chester-Liverpool (and Chester-Manchester) services was capped at 1tph each.
Northern had no interest/mandate to run services into Wales, and was itself in serious operational difficulties at the time.
They do run Chester-Leeds now, a welcome doubling of frequency on Chester-Warrington-Manchester, something that derived from the Manchester Hub work which diverted Liverpool-Leeds services via Chat Moss and away from Warrington.

 

[Krokodil]

It's all still planned to happen once the timetable re-write associated with TfW's new rolling stock is introduced.

I wouldn't be too sure about the "all" bit, TfW are having a post-pandemic review. The service will return to hourly in December, I can't see the Llandudno extension not going ahead, but there is a question mark hanging over the Cardiff bit.