Envoy
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 2,478
At what point do they say “enough is enough”, this project to get Class 67’s up and running with Mk 4 coaches is a failure and we need to look at alternatives?
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
TfW Marches lines services: Should they have 1st class and is there anything that can be done to improve reliability?
- Thread starter Envoy
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Anonymous10
Established Member
What alternatives are there if they want loco with 1st class only the mk5s with 68s
I think its fair to say that the 67s do seam to be weak link in all this,as stated above the months in store seams to have really knackered them, I'm sure there are probably some of them that have spent nearly as long stored as in traffic. They were new in 2000 ish and EWS lost the mail contract in 2004 since then they have been a solution looking for a problem
Bob Price
Member
- Joined
- 8 Aug 2019
- Messages
- 1,035
Options would be the GBRF 73's, 66's, 68's 69's, or a new loco from somewhere. None of these scream out as an immediate replacement. The fact is that DB promised a loco which would work and didn't supply. I would imagine TfW have a get out clause?
GWVillager
Member
Surely the 68s do? They’ve proved reliable (if thirsty) passenger locos. I don’t think they would change them, but the 68s do stand out.
Bob Price
Member
- Joined
- 8 Aug 2019
- Messages
- 1,035
Moderator note: Split from
I suppose more will be available now the TPE services have gone. It's speculation I guess as to whether they need any work doing to work with the Mk4's, and if the lease cost would be higher than a 67.
BTW just watched a rake pass Crewe so there is one out today. Most services have been 197's or 158's this week.
Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW
Now that the Azuma's are nearly in service and Mark 4's are going to be released in the coming weeks, do we know any more details about the three MK4 rakes that Transport for Wales are due to receive from LNER, such as which sets they'll be receiving and when they'll enter service by?
www.railforums.co.uk
I suppose more will be available now the TPE services have gone. It's speculation I guess as to whether they need any work doing to work with the Mk4's, and if the lease cost would be higher than a 67.
BTW just watched a rake pass Crewe so there is one out today. Most services have been 197's or 158's this week.
Last edited by a moderator:
Richard Scott
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Dec 2018
- Messages
- 3,696
They are more fuel efficient than 67s.
SuperLuke2334
Established Member
There would be a lot of changes to the Mk4s needed as I understand it, and they will also need complete training.
The 197s are abominations - the very idea of them should have been scrapped before they entered build. If we put aside the idea of loco-hauled stock, the only idea that comes to mind for a premium product would be class 180s and the 180s:
A. aren't available (meaning, if the mark 4 option hadn't been taken, TfW would still be stuck with the ex-ATW mark 3s) and
B. haven't exactly been a glowing example of reliability either
That leaves new builds which really ought to have pantographs (ie. bi-mode) - it isn't clear whether the bi-mode CAF Civity is available for the UK loading guage and there seem to be issues getting the EMU Aventras into service - let alone the (so far unordered) bi-mode version. As a premium product (with buffet) any new fleet should be 5-cars minimum, which is also supposedly the break-even point where LHCS becomes cost-effective compared to units, but would any bi-mode locos be capable of keeping to time on the Holyhead-Cardiff and Manchester-Swansea routes in diesel mode? By the time a new fleet could be delivered TfW may well have sorted the teething issues with the mark 4s...The mark 4s really seem to be the best (if not only) option for maintaining the premium product previously provided by the mark 3s to me.
Last edited:
Techniquest
Veteran Member
As much as I love having the DVT for cycle storage, and the ex-GC sets for comfort and class, I'd have to agree. However that's very off-topic here and I'd be in trouble for expressing my full view
The issue with more 197's is the current offering of First Class is nowhere near that of a Mk4. The level of space and comfort will drop, as well as the number of seats available and obviously the kitchen service. It's also been mentioned on the CAF 197 forum that there's now complications being raised about the First area not having access to an accessible toilet.
TFW and the WG have put a lot of money in to the Mk4s, not forgetting they also own them. It's unlikely that anything other than exploring other loco options will be given thought.
The only other option would be to have a more special 197 order with an increased First class offering. For example an entire carriage of a 3 car becomes first class and they make better use of that pointless cupboard space for a decent cafe style food offering but they'd have to lose the kitchen & meal service.
TFW and the WG have put a lot of money in to the Mk4s, not forgetting they also own them. It's unlikely that anything other than exploring other loco options will be given thought.
The only other option would be to have a more special 197 order with an increased First class offering. For example an entire carriage of a 3 car becomes first class and they make better use of that pointless cupboard space for a decent cafe style food offering but they'd have to lose the kitchen & meal service.
I’ve often thought the same. Anything to simplify the running of the TOC would have been a positive.
Richard Scott
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Dec 2018
- Messages
- 3,696
Well don't think they've made much effort so far looking at numerous different orders for stock. 197s are definitely an inferior product to the Mk4s. I'm sure they'll get on top of the issues. Seems some people want loco hauled stock to fail; it offers a vastly superior environment to units.
68s won't be coming unless things change dramatically. They've been ruled out on cost grounds and the extensive mods required to get them to work with 67s would have to be done again for 68 operation.
The MK4 sets I think offer a more pleasant ride/environment than the 197's, having sampled both types of stock frequently lately I do try and book services operated by the MK4's, that's not to say the 197's are not providing an increasing valuable/reliable service especially when the alternative is a150/153. The problems with the Loco service are mostly arising from loco issues themselves, I think it's time Welsh Government insisted that DB provide reliable locos and fix any known issues with immediate effect surely there must have been a minimum service provision/reliability clause in the contract.
GWVillager
Member
Oh yes, I know, but I was saying that out of the options listed the 68s clearly stand out as potential candidates.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Don’t be so utterly ridiculous; they are perfectly adequate trains for what they do, they have a far superior PIS and through gangways on the 175s, they have long distance seat types (UK), and a better space efficient layout for Castlefield corridor and peak Marches routes, and the 5 carriage formations on Manchester Cardiff will offer enormous capacity. Your obsession with disliking them exhausts absolutely everyone purely because it’s so very pointless. No one wants to hear the same baseless rant every time.
That’s why it’s no longer going to be First Class, it will be branded as Business Class and available solely via on-board upgrades, to ensure there is no disappointment or inconsistency among products. It will be a mid-range product offering wider seats and more room. If you want the full separation from standard and restaurant service, you can book first class. Only standard will be offered on 197/1Bs, and if you board it and decide the seat and space is worth the money, you can upgrade.
The cupboard is not pointless. When the full roll out is complete, it will be used as a base from which hot and cold food can be ordered at seat to all classes, in lieu of a trolley. Mind you, were the Cambrian to get /1 I would have thought it better to leave this out on the /0, as Holyhead Cardiff and Manchester Swansea will have a /1 from which customer could order this. The /0 wouldn’t need it on journeys for which they work alone.
Rant? Maybe. Baseless? Absolutely not; I just left out the justifications for my calling them abominations in the post you quoted because this is the mark 4 thread and so you didn't get the full rant again. But since you seem to have forgotten, I've just reposted (some of) the details in a more-approprate topic.
I can forgive the Welsh Government a lot for making the effort to create proper intercity services with loco hauled stock.
What I don’t get is the obsession with introducing first class onto the Marches route. It’s a pointless distraction that reduces capacity- and revenue - on this increasingly popular route.
They could be avoiding problems with both the loco hauled stock and the 1st class 197s by declassifying 1st class for the foreseeable future, *then* reviewing once capacity problems have been alleviated.
What I don’t get is the obsession with introducing first class onto the Marches route. It’s a pointless distraction that reduces capacity- and revenue - on this increasingly popular route.
They could be avoiding problems with both the loco hauled stock and the 1st class 197s by declassifying 1st class for the foreseeable future, *then* reviewing once capacity problems have been alleviated.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Honestly I agree, when they have such a fleet issue, they should wait until that’s solved first. When the 197s and MK4s are solidly running in full length formation on every former 175 service out of Cardiff and Manchester and there isn’t a 150 for miles around, then reclassify.
GWVillager
Member
I might be completely misremembering, but I think that was the original plan. I agree, it would help to build back more trust in the railway if nothing else.
From what I have heard internally, the MK4’s make decent profit from 1st class on the Manchester - Cardiff route.
This is part of the reason they’ve been Almost entirely removed from CDF-HHD.
One of TFW’s aims is to reduce the amount of subsidy required per passenger, so if it’s paying for itself and more, I can’t see them wanting to drop it.
I have also heard that they’re wee looking at replacing 67’s with 93’s.
Only problem being that in their current state, the 93’s on diesel would be far too underpowered for they would be doing. So TFW could we’ll be looking into replacing the 67’s but as it stands, there doesn’t seem to be any other good choice.
Even 4x153’s is better than a 2 car 197 in my opinion !
GWVillager is correct as far as the class 197s are concerned. The orignal (ie. KeolisAmey) plan was that there would be no first class on the 197s until 31st December 2024 (ie. over a year away yet). Until then, at least half of the 197s with first class would have had this declassified and the remaining units (number undecided on the published documentation, possibly none) would have been 'first class ready' - presumably something closer to the normal standard class interior but designed for quicker/easier conversion to first class at the end of 2024.
The mark 4 sets however I think were expected to have first class from the outset, since there were only three sets in the plan back then all of which would have been on Holyhead-Cardiff replacing the first class already provided by the ATW mark 3s. Under those plans, the first appearance of first class on a TfW service from Manchester would therefore still be over a year away today.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Under those plans, Holyhead was also supposed to get three trains per day MK4 with first class, but this has been replaced with a very disappointing one at an awkward time.
Yes, three mark 4s each way to Holyhead was the plan (and still would be with HD08, but are we actually getting that eventually?) - not sure what you mean about the last remaining Holyhead being a very disapointing one though...
Yes, very disapointing if HD08 is now going to be HD99 and the eventual number of diagrams has been cut by one at the expense of the other two Holyhead workings. Has it actually been confirmed that HD08 is permanently cancelled though?
When the removal of the other two Holyhead runs was reported on here it came with a note that those Holyhead workings would come back if/when HD08 entered service. Since the mark 4s still haven't really 'bedded in', could the poor patronage on Holyheads simply be due to poor reliablity and would improve if they are brought back once reliability of the mark 4s has been sorted?
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
A very disappointing one per day, rather than three...
Oh, ok - I misread it. Thought you meant there was something underwhelming about the passenger experience on board that particular service (eg. was the buffet closed on most occasions or sometthing) which didn't apply on the Manchester runs.
Cardiff - Holyhead is just a WG vanity project. Cardiff - Manchester is where the money is.
It would be better to offer a more business class with 3 car 197's on Cardiff - Holyhead so expectations are lower, but is a more consistent offering associated with the route.
The issue with the Mk4's, as with a lot of things with TFW, is the plans are great, the execution is poor. Maybe the poor reliability of the Mk4's couldn't have been foreseen, but they are not proving to be reliable sets. Were Mk3's hauled by Class 67s? Were the Mk3's as unreliable?
The notion of providing First on the marches route is great in theory and has potential to be a good offering. But when the reliability has been so poor they haven't done themselves any favours when some days there's only 2 of out 5 sets in service. If people are buying First then a 150 turns up, it will not encourage regular passengers, which a product offering like First is likely to attract. There must be a lot of overhead to running the First that TFW offers, with the kitchen and service etc associated. If as people say even now it's profitable, then a reliable service will likely build a lot more custom if they can make it a consistent and reliable service.
I would imagine that the First coaches came as part of the sets. Implementing a standard only class initially then First later on may raise it's own complications with getting first added, employing new catering staff etc etc. Look how long it's taken just to add the 5th standard coach.
It seems a lot of the issues are down to the Class 67s and the power. If Class 68's are becoming available and can provide better compatibility then hopefully it will improve reliability.
It would be better to offer a more business class with 3 car 197's on Cardiff - Holyhead so expectations are lower, but is a more consistent offering associated with the route.
The issue with the Mk4's, as with a lot of things with TFW, is the plans are great, the execution is poor. Maybe the poor reliability of the Mk4's couldn't have been foreseen, but they are not proving to be reliable sets. Were Mk3's hauled by Class 67s? Were the Mk3's as unreliable?
The notion of providing First on the marches route is great in theory and has potential to be a good offering. But when the reliability has been so poor they haven't done themselves any favours when some days there's only 2 of out 5 sets in service. If people are buying First then a 150 turns up, it will not encourage regular passengers, which a product offering like First is likely to attract. There must be a lot of overhead to running the First that TFW offers, with the kitchen and service etc associated. If as people say even now it's profitable, then a reliable service will likely build a lot more custom if they can make it a consistent and reliable service.
I would imagine that the First coaches came as part of the sets. Implementing a standard only class initially then First later on may raise it's own complications with getting first added, employing new catering staff etc etc. Look how long it's taken just to add the 5th standard coach.
It seems a lot of the issues are down to the Class 67s and the power. If Class 68's are becoming available and can provide better compatibility then hopefully it will improve reliability.
- Status