Envoy
Established Member
- Joined
- 29 Aug 2014
- Messages
- 2,493
At what point do they say “enough is enough”, this project to get Class 67’s up and running with Mk 4 coaches is a failure and we need to look at alternatives?
What alternatives are there if they want loco with 1st class only the mk5s with 68sAt what point do they say “enough is enough”, this project to get Class 67’s up and running with Mk 4 coaches is a failure and we need to look at alternatives?
Surely the 68s do? They’ve proved reliable (if thirsty) passenger locos. I don’t think they would change them, but the 68s do stand out.Options would be the GBRF 73's, 66's, 68's 69's, or a new loco from somewhere. None of these scream out as an immediate replacement. The fact is that DB promised a loco which would work and didn't supply. I would imagine TfW have a get out clause?
They are more fuel efficient than 67s.Surely the 68s do? They’ve proved reliable (if thirsty) passenger locos. I don’t think they would change them, but the 68s do stand out.
There would be a lot of changes to the Mk4s needed as I understand it, and they will also need complete training.I suppose more will be available now the TPE services have gone. It's speculation I guess as to whether they need any work doing to work with the Mk4's, and if the lease cost would be higher than a 67.
BTW just watched a rake pass Crewe so there is one out today. Most services have been 197's or 158's this week.
The 197s are abominations - the very idea of them should have been scrapped before they entered build. If we put aside the idea of loco-hauled stock, the only idea that comes to mind for a premium product would be class 180s and the 180s:Or would it not be more prudent to scrap the idea of loco hauled stock and go for a consistent fleet of 197s by ordering a few more?
Or would it not be more prudent to scrap the idea of loco hauled stock and go for a consistent fleet of 197s by ordering a few more?
I’ve often thought the same. Anything to simplify the running of the TOC would have been a positive.Or would it not be more prudent to scrap the idea of loco hauled stock and go for a consistent fleet of 197s by ordering a few more?
Well don't think they've made much effort so far looking at numerous different orders for stock. 197s are definitely an inferior product to the Mk4s. I'm sure they'll get on top of the issues. Seems some people want loco hauled stock to fail; it offers a vastly superior environment to units.I’ve often thought the same. Anything to simplify the running of the TOC would have been a positive.
68s won't be coming unless things change dramatically. They've been ruled out on cost grounds and the extensive mods required to get them to work with 67s would have to be done again for 68 operation.Surely the 68s do? They’ve proved reliable (if thirsty) passenger locos. I don’t think they would change them, but the 68s do stand out.
Oh yes, I know, but I was saying that out of the options listed the 68s clearly stand out as potential candidates.68s won't be coming unless things change dramatically. They've been ruled out on cost grounds and the extensive mods required to get them to work with 67s would have to be done again for 68 operation.
Don’t be so utterly ridiculous; they are perfectly adequate trains for what they do, they have a far superior PIS and through gangways on the 175s, they have long distance seat types (UK), and a better space efficient layout for Castlefield corridor and peak Marches routes, and the 5 carriage formations on Manchester Cardiff will offer enormous capacity. Your obsession with disliking them exhausts absolutely everyone purely because it’s so very pointless. No one wants to hear the same baseless rant every time.The 197s are abominations - the very idea of them should have been scrapped before they entered build.
That’s why it’s no longer going to be First Class, it will be branded as Business Class and available solely via on-board upgrades, to ensure there is no disappointment or inconsistency among products. It will be a mid-range product offering wider seats and more room. If you want the full separation from standard and restaurant service, you can book first class. Only standard will be offered on 197/1Bs, and if you board it and decide the seat and space is worth the money, you can upgrade.The issue with more 197's is the current offering of First Class is nowhere near that of a Mk4. The level of space and comfort will drop, as well as the number of seats available and obviously the kitchen service. It's also been mentioned on the CAF 197 forum that there's now complications being raised about the First area not having access to an accessible toilet.
TFW and the WG have put a lot of money in to the Mk4s, not forgetting they also own them. It's unlikely that anything other than exploring other loco options will be given thought.
The only other option would be to have a more special 197 order with an increased First class offering. For example an entire carriage of a 3 car becomes first class and they make better use of that pointless cupboard space for a decent cafe style food offering but they'd have to lose the kitchen & meal service.
Rant? Maybe. Baseless? Absolutely not; I just left out the justifications for my calling them abominations in the post you quoted because this is the mark 4 thread and so you didn't get the full rant again. But since you seem to have forgotten, I've just reposted (some of) the details in a more-approprate topic.Your obsession with disliking them exhausts absolutely everyone purely because it’s so very pointless. No one wants to hear the same baseless rant every time.
Honestly I agree, when they have such a fleet issue, they should wait until that’s solved first. When the 197s and MK4s are solidly running in full length formation on every former 175 service out of Cardiff and Manchester and there isn’t a 150 for miles around, then reclassify.They could be avoiding problems with both the loco hauled stock and the 1st class 197s by declassifying 1st class for the foreseeable future, *then* reviewing once capacity problems have been alleviated.
I might be completely misremembering, but I think that was the original plan. I agree, it would help to build back more trust in the railway if nothing else.I can forgive the Welsh Government a lot for making the effort to create proper intercity services with loco hauled stock.
What I don’t get is the obsession with introducing first class onto the Marches route. It’s a pointless distraction that reduces capacity- and revenue - on this increasingly popular route.
They could be avoiding problems with both the loco hauled stock and the 1st class 197s by declassifying 1st class for the foreseeable future, *then* reviewing once capacity problems have been alleviated.
From what I have heard internally, the MK4’s make decent profit from 1st class on the Manchester - Cardiff route.I can forgive the Welsh Government a lot for making the effort to create proper intercity services with loco hauled stock.
What I don’t get is the obsession with introducing first class onto the Marches route. It’s a pointless distraction that reduces capacity- and revenue - on this increasingly popular route.
They could be avoiding problems with both the loco hauled stock and the 1st class 197s by declassifying 1st class for the foreseeable future, *then* reviewing once capacity problems have been alleviated.
Even 4x153’s is better than a 2 car 197 in my opinion !Also two 150s is better than one 197
GWVillager is correct as far as the class 197s are concerned. The orignal (ie. KeolisAmey) plan was that there would be no first class on the 197s until 31st December 2024 (ie. over a year away yet). Until then, at least half of the 197s with first class would have had this declassified and the remaining units (number undecided on the published documentation, possibly none) would have been 'first class ready' - presumably something closer to the normal standard class interior but designed for quicker/easier conversion to first class at the end of 2024.I might be completely misremembering, but I think that was the original plan. I agree, it would help to build back more trust in the railway if nothing else.They could be avoiding problems with both the loco hauled stock and the 1st class 197s by declassifying 1st class for the foreseeable future, *then* reviewing once capacity problems have been alleviated.
Under those plans, Holyhead was also supposed to get three trains per day MK4 with first class, but this has been replaced with a very disappointing one at an awkward time.The mark 4 sets however I think were expected to have first class from the outset, since there were only three sets in the plan back then all of which would have been on Holyhead-Cardiff replacing the first class already provided by the ATW mark 3s. Under those plans, the first appearance of first class on a TfW service from Manchester would therefore still be over a year away today.
Yes, three mark 4s each way to Holyhead was the plan (and still would be with HD08, but are we actually getting that eventually?) - not sure what you mean about the last remaining Holyhead being a very disapointing one though...Under those plans, Holyhead was also supposed to get three trains per day MK4 with first class, but this has been replaced with a very disappointing one at an awkward time.
Yes, very disapointing if HD08 is now going to be HD99 and the eventual number of diagrams has been cut by one at the expense of the other two Holyhead workings. Has it actually been confirmed that HD08 is permanently cancelled though?The three trains a day to Holyhead have slipped quietly off the timetable leaving just V91 and W96
Shame the additional set couldn’t be commissioned….
HD08 Coaches reported going to Bristol the other week and the tender speaking of HD99 coming into service soon
When the removal of the other two Holyhead runs was reported on here it came with a note that those Holyhead workings would come back if/when HD08 entered service. Since the mark 4s still haven't really 'bedded in', could the poor patronage on Holyheads simply be due to poor reliablity and would improve if they are brought back once reliability of the mark 4s has been sorted?The Holyheads aren't planned to come back. With the poor patronage of 1st class on the daytime Holyheads there's no real case for them to be Mk4s. First on the Manchesters are profitable, the Holyheads lost a fortune
A very disappointing one per day, rather than three...Yes, three mark 4s each way to Holyhead was the plan (and still would be with HD08, but are we actually getting that eventually?) - not sure what you mean about the last remaining Holyhead being a very disapointing one though...
Oh, ok - I misread it. Thought you meant there was something underwhelming about the passenger experience on board that particular service (eg. was the buffet closed on most occasions or sometthing) which didn't apply on the Manchester runs.A very disappointing one per day, rather than three...