TfW route and allocation speculation

[robrymond]

Moderator note: Split from
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caf-civity-for-tfw-news-and-updates-on-introduction.182501/

Two class 150s have passed through Nantwich in either direction just now from Cardiff to Manchester and vice versa. The stopper to Shrewsbury is a 153.

 

[Western 52]

Two class 150s have passed through Nantwich in either direction just now from Cardiff to Manchester and vice versa. The stopper to Shrewsbury is a 153.

I think there's some disruption today which may be impacting the route, due to someone being hit by a train between Kidwelly and Pembrey and Burry Port this morning. Trains have been on stop for a couple of hours now.

 

[nigelsporne]

Once TfW are in a position to dispose of their 15* fleet will they be going to another TOC or to the great network in the sky?

 

[robrymond]

I think there's some disruption today which may be impacting the route, due to someone being hit by a train between Kidwelly and Pembrey and Burry Port this morning. Trains have been on stop for a couple of hours now.

Fair enough was surprised to see so many old ones out. Does anyone know what the stopper service will become in the future?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Once TfW are in a position to dispose of their 15* fleet will they be going to another TOC or to the great network in the sky?

It’s not yet known.
There’s a dedicated thread here:

TfW 15x/17x withdrawals (17x now finished)

Hello There is a thread to track the cascades of 170s to EMR, and a thread to note the day to day availability of 175s during their plague, but nothing to track the withdrawals of 150/not staying 153s/158s and 175s. Please do update this thread when you become aware of another train standing...

www.railforums.co.uk

It would seem logical that GWR could certainly have the 158’s but nothing official has been said.

Fair enough was surprised to see so many old ones out. Does anyone know what the stopper service will become in the future?

The Crewe local (Shrewsbury - Crewe stopper) will be a 197/0.

 

[Jez]

It’s not yet known.
There’s a dedicated thread here:

TfW 15x/17x withdrawals (17x now finished)

Hello There is a thread to track the cascades of 170s to EMR, and a thread to note the day to day availability of 175s during their plague, but nothing to track the withdrawals of 150/not staying 153s/158s and 175s. Please do update this thread when you become aware of another train standing...

www.railforums.co.uk

It would seem logical that GWR could certainly have the 158’s but nothing official has been said.


The Crewe local (Shrewsbury - Crewe stopper) will be a 197/0.

I thought the Crewe local was already booked a 197? Was.the Sprinter today just covering?

 

[Western 52]

I thought the Crewe local was already booked a 197? Was.the Sprinter today just covering?

It's been a 197/0 each time I've seen it since about July last year.

 

[sd0733]

I thought the Crewe local was already booked a 197? Was.the Sprinter today just covering?

It's gone back to a 153 diagram, believe it went back in December timetable change.

 

[Jez]

It's gone back to a 153 diagram, believe it went back in December timetable change.

That's interesting. Especially if it's booked for 1 car not two.

 

[nigelsporne]

I saw it as a 153 in November and on one occasion a 158.

 

[Jez]

Perhaps due to the extra 197s needed for the Borderlands line it's easier to put a 153 on the Crewe local as they go to Shrewsbury anyway for the Heart of Wales

 

[craigybagel]

Officially, Crewe - Shrewsbury local was always booked for a single 153. It's true there was a lengthy period of it regularly being 197 worked, but it still showed 153 on the LTP diagrams. A single 153 is more than enough capacity the vast amount of the time anyway.

 

[nigelsporne]

What always surprises me is that the service has a trolley. Mind you it always seems well patronised.

 

[Jez]

Officially, Crewe - Shrewsbury local was always booked for a single 153. It's true there was a lengthy period of it regularly being 197 worked, but it still showed 153 on the LTP diagrams. A single 153 is more than enough capacity the vast amount of the time anyway.

That's true. I imagine most people from the likes of Whitchurch and Nantwich would be going to Manchester and aim for the direct service rather than change at Crewe.

I was surprised myself when it went to a 197 in the first place as it was always suggested it along with the HOWL would remain as 153s.

What always surprises me is that the service has a trolley. Mind you it always seems well patronised.

If you mean the Crewe local then I'm surprised too as stoppers like that don't usually have a trolley. Swanline never does as far as I know, unless the stops are being picked up by the long distance services.

 

[animationmilo]

That's true. I imagine most people from the likes of Whitchurch and Nantwich would be going to Manchester and aim for the direct service rather than change at Crewe.

I was surprised myself when it went to a 197 in the first place as it was always suggested it along with the HOWL would remain as 153s.


If you mean the Crewe local then I'm surprised too as stoppers like that don't usually have a trolley. Swanline never does as far as I know, unless the stops are being picked up by the long distance services.

I think Shrewsbury to Crewe local went to 197 was to enable more training for crews. Would make sense

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think Shrewsbury to Crewe local went to 197 was to enable more training for crews. Would make sense

Should go to 196/0 under WMR, they already work them to Shrewsbury, and then a route entirely within England isn't managed by the Welsh Government. It also helps with TfW's stock shortage, freeing only one unit, but every little helps.

 

[childwallblues]

That's true. I imagine most people from the likes of Whitchurch and Nantwich would be going to Manchester and aim for the direct service rather than change at Crewe.

I was surprised myself when it went to a 197 in the first place as it was always suggested it along with the HOWL would remain as 153s.


If you mean the Crewe local then I'm surprised too as stoppers like that don't usually have a trolley. Swanline never does as far as I know, unless the stops are being picked up by the long distance service

TfW trolleys appear on routes that they are not booked for when the booked trolley train is cancelled. The Chester to Liverpool Lime Street service is one of used as a substitute.

 

[MP393]

TfW trolleys appear on routes that they are not booked for when the booked trolley train is cancelled. The Chester to Liverpool Lime Street service is one of used as a substitute.

Yes that’s exactly the same for when one appears on Shrewsbury - Crewe shuttles, it will be either a cancellation of the booked work, or “signed off” another service because it’s too busy, such as a 2 car to Birmingham or Aberystwyth for example

 

[Peter Sarf]

Should go to 196/0 under WMR, they already work them to Shrewsbury, and then a route entirely within England isn't managed by the Welsh Government. It also helps with TfW's stock shortage, freeing only one unit, but every little helps.

Gosh thats a point !.

Alternative to WMR is give Shrewsbury to Crewe to Northern. Sort of makes more sense except WMR/LNR serve both ends.

Only excuse for it staying with TfW is that they run other longer distance trains that use the route.

 

[craigybagel]

That's true. I imagine most people from the likes of Whitchurch and Nantwich would be going to Manchester and aim for the direct service rather than change at Crewe.

I was surprised myself when it went to a 197 in the first place as it was always suggested it along with the HOWL would remain as 153s.

It was meant to go over to 170s when those were the planned units for the HOWL. Now that the HOWL is keeping 153s, the plans are for the local to switch to 197s. Crewe drivers aren't currently planned to keep 153 competency and without that it's very difficult to keep them on the local.

Should go to 196/0 under WMR, they already work them to Shrewsbury, and then a route entirely within England isn't managed by the Welsh Government. It also helps with TfW's stock shortage, freeing only one unit, but every little helps.

It really shouldn't, it would be a lot more inefficient from a crewing perspective, and there would be no benefits other than some perceived advantage in having the service run by a DFT run TOC rather than a Welsh one.

At the moment, it's worked by Shrewsbury, Crewe, and Chester (guards only) crews who already need to sign the route and traction anyway for their other duties. At various different times on and off it's also been worked by Cardiff crews. Whilst WMR have a depot at each end, neither of them sign the route, and Crewe don't even sign any diesel traction either. You'd end up with a surplus of crews at TfW and a shortage at WMR. There would be minimal cost savings at TfW but rather large training expenses at WMR.

And what happens when the service is cancelled? TfW put extra calls in the Manchester - South Wales services to compensate. Good luck getting them to do that when it's another TOCs problem. It's the same with the late night services when there isn't enough traffic to justify a stand alone shuttle.

Is the service really suffering by being run by a Welsh TOC?

Alternative to WMR is give Shrewsbury to Crewe to Northern. Sort of makes more sense except WMR/LNR serve both ends.

That makes even less sense. Northerns nearest traincrew depot is 30 miles from Crewe (and 60 miles from Shrewsbury!). You can't interwork it with any other Northern service as there aren't the paths across the WCML at Crewe and 323s don't work very well without overhead wires. It would be a stand alone service on a limb, on what is already a limb of the Northern network.

Only excuse for it staying with TfW is that they run other longer distance trains that use the route.

Which means they have all the crews and units in place for it already. Seems a pretty good excuse to me.

 

[nigelsporne]

Whilst on the subject of routes has TfW considered doing a South Wales to Liverpool service by either diverting the odd Manchester train or by extending the Chester to Lime Street service to provide a connection at say Shrewsbury?

 

[Anonymous10]

Whilst on the subject of routes has TfW considered doing a South Wales to Liverpool service by either diverting the odd Manchester train or by extending the Chester to Lime Street service to provide a connection at say Shrewsbury?

If they did wouldn't they do it to Crewe? You have the Holyhead and Manchester trains passing through Crewe anyway.

 

[Jez]

I dont see it as being a problem the Crewe local being run by TFW - the franchise is for the Borders area as well as Wales. You could argue that the Chester-Crewe shuttle should be Northern given both Chester and Crewe have other Northern services.

It was meant to go over to 170s when those were the planned units for the HOWL. Now that the HOWL is keeping 153s, the plans are for the local to switch to 197s. Crewe drivers aren't currently planned to keep 153 competency and without that it's very difficult to keep them on the local.

Ah id forgotten that Crewe train crew also sign this route, i had it in my mind it would be Shrewsbury.

And what happens when the service is cancelled? TfW put extra calls in the Manchester - South Wales services to compensate. Good luck getting them to do that when it's another TOCs problem. It's the same with the late night services when there isn't enough traffic to justify a stand alone shuttle.

Is the service really suffering by being run by a Welsh TOC?

It would be great if the shuttle was made hourly and the Manchester to South Wales avoided any calls altogether between Crewe and Shrewsbury. It makes for a much faster service especially those that make calls at all the request stops such as Yorten.

Whilst on the subject of routes has TfW considered doing a South Wales to Liverpool service by either diverting the odd Manchester train or by extending the Chester to Lime Street service to provide a connection at say Shrewsbury?

Isnt the plan for there to be a 2 hourly Cardiff to Liverpool service once all the 197s are in service. it will run in the path departing Cardiff the opposite hour to the current 2 hourly Holyhead service.

 

[craigybagel]

Whilst on the subject of routes has TfW considered doing a South Wales to Liverpool service by either diverting the odd Manchester train or by extending the Chester to Lime Street service to provide a connection at say Shrewsbury?

If they did wouldn't they do it to Crewe? You have the Holyhead and Manchester trains passing through Crewe anyway.

The plan is for a 2 hourly Cardiff - Shrewsbury - Liverpool service. You can't divert Manchester trains from Crewe as they're too busy to lose any services, it needs to be additional, and you'd struggle to find paths up the WCML from Crewe to Liverpool, hence the plan to attach a unit at Chester to the Liverpool - North Wales service.

I dont see it as being a problem the Crewe local being run by TFW - the franchise is for the Borders area as well as Wales. You could argue that the Chester-Crewe shuttle should be Northern given both Chester and Crewe have other Northern services.

Again, you run into the issue there of both Chester and Crewe being fairly far flung points on the Northern network with no traincrew depot nearby. TfW have depots at both Crewe & Chester, and during the day the shuttle is worked by crews from both of those depots, and also Shrewsbury, Llandudno Junction, Holyhead and for guards only even Cardiff! An hours round trip on the shuttle is a good way to pad out a job to make it more productive, it's a much more efficient way to work it than to make Northern crews trek down from Manchester or Liverpool.

Ah id forgotten that Crewe train crew also sign this route, i had it in my mind it would be Shrewsbury.

It's part of the core routes that all drivers sign from day 1 at both depots. Same for guards (though they tend to sign all of their depots route card from day 1 anyway).

It would be great if the shuttle was made hourly and the Manchester to South Wales avoided any calls altogether between Crewe and Shrewsbury. It makes for a much faster service especially those that make calls at all the request stops such as Yorten.

The problem is, there's quite a big demand for travel from Whitchurch and especially Nantwich towards Manchester. It's hard to strike a balance between the market for long distance and short trips on the route. Also, because of the awful signalling on the line and minimum connection times at Crewe you can't run the local and the fast service that close together for a quick connection at Crewe either.

Also, thanks to the MU speed differentials on the line, a non stop 67 hauled service takes about as long to cover the route as a 197 stopping at Nantwich and Whitchurch.

 

[Caaardiff]

It would be better to extend the Crewe - Shrewsbury to a Crewe - Hereford all stops. The stopping pattern between Shrewsbury and Hereford is often a bit random. Some trains do all stops, some don't stop at all, some do some stops and skip others.
It could mean that some Manchester services can have fewer stops, speeding up the overall journey time.

 

[Jez]

The problem is, there's quite a big demand for travel from Whitchurch and especially Nantwich towards Manchester. It's hard to strike a balance between the market for long distance and short trips on the route. Also, because of the awful signalling on the line and minimum connection times at Crewe you can't run the local and the fast service that close together for a quick connection at Crewe either.

Also, thanks to the MU speed differentials on the line, a non stop 67 hauled service takes about as long to cover the route as a 197 stopping at Nantwich and Whitchurch.

I was thinking the same thing regarding Nantwich needing a direct service to Manchester. In an ideal timetable there would be 2 trains an hour between Shrewsbury and Manchester - 1 fast Cardiff to Manchester and a stopping service between Shrewsbury and Manchester calling at all stops between Shrewsbury and Crewe (maybe the request stops could be once every 2 hours as now either booked or still request) but with no extra paths between Crewe and Manchester that is very unlikely im guessing.

It would be better to extend the Crewe - Shrewsbury to a Crewe - Hereford all stops. The stopping pattern between Shrewsbury and Hereford is often a bit random. Some trains do all stops, some don't stop at all, some do some stops and skip others.
It could mean that some Manchester services can have fewer stops, speeding up the overall journey time.

Yes the stops between Hereford and Shrewsbury are a hindrance to the long distance passengers too. So if Craven Arms, Church Stretton could be picked up by a stopper along with all stations between Shrewsbury and Crewe that would be a massive time saving for long distance passengers.

We know Cardiff to Manchester can be done in around 3 hours 10 minutes (before the Covid timetable several Manchesters departed Cardiff at xx05 with the 2 hourly Holyheads it created a more even timetable on the Marches) maybe they could aim for it to be done in 3 hours to give a faster service to long distance passengers. Currently most Cardiff to Manchesters are around 3 hours 25 minutes.