TfW Standard Plus

[Llandudno]

Recently travelled on a TfW Class 197 three car unit on the north Wales coast and one of the coaches was branded Standard Plus with wider 2+1 seating and smart tables.

Obviously there is no such thing as Standard Plus on the Manchester - Llandudno services so you can sit anywhere, but what struck me was the big red vinyls with thick horizontal lines stuck over the windows of the Standard Plus section, completely spoiling the view looking out!

Presumably they are to be used on Manchester - Cardiff services but I wouldn’t be happy paying a premium fare for an obstructed view out of the window!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Recently travelled on a TfW Class 197 three car unit on the north Wales coast and one of the coaches was branded Standard Plus with wider 2+1 seating and smart tables.

Obviously there is no such thing as Standard Plus on the Manchester - Llandudno services so you can sit anywhere, but what struck me was the big red vinyls with thick horizontal lines stuck over the windows of the Standard Plus section, completely spoiling the view looking out!

Presumably they are to be used on Manchester - Cardiff services but I wouldn’t be happy paying a premium fare for an obstructed view out of the window!

That might have been 197120 with the Welsh Dragon 'Made in Wales' vinyls on the outside. It's the only unit that has it.

 

[Krokodil]

Obviously there is no such thing as Standard Plus on the Manchester - Llandudno services so you can sit anywhere

That's not true. Fares are in the system for all routes outside of the South Wales Metro (even the Conwy Valley Line which has since been barred to three car sets). At some point in the near future the remaining units will be labelled and Standard Plus will be charged for.

 

[Western 52]

That might have been 197120 with the Welsh Dragon 'Made in Wales' vinyls on the outside. It's the only unit that has it.

I've used that part of 197120 several times and the vinyls certainly do spoil the view. I overhear a conversation between two other passengers who wondered why there were bars on the windows!

 

[Jez]

I find it a bit confusing how the plan seems to be to use the Standard Plus units on random services. Surely it would be far better when they start charging for the upgrade to have specific booked workings for the 197 standard plus sets, rather than just put them into a common pool of 3 car 197s. That way there would be far more consistency and customers would get used to them appearing on regular services. Id say West Wales-Manchester, Cardiff-Holyhead and North Wales-Manchester would be where the upgrade would be best suited rather than them appearing on shorter journeys like Swanline, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Liverpool-Chester.

 

[Western 52]

It may have been better to have standard plus in all the 3 car sets if TfW are committed to it. Diagramming will always be a bit hit and miss as it is, as they'll never get them to stick to particular services!

 

[Jez]

It may have been better to have standard plus in all the 3 car sets if TfW are committed to it. Diagramming will always be a bit hit and miss as it is, as they'll never get them to stick to particular services!

I agree but the original plan was just for Swansea-Manchester to have first class which is why only so many of the 3 cars were fitted with what was to be first class.

Even if diagramming is hit and miss on paper they would be booked to specific services. The 2 cars are going to have to be split into 2 for diagramming when they are all in service to ensure the Cambrian services get the correct units. I dont see why the 3 cars cant be split into 2 for diagramming either.

 

[Llandudno]

That's not true. Fares are in the system for all routes outside of the South Wales Metro (even the Conwy Valley Line which has since been barred to three car sets). At some point in the near future the remaining units will be labelled and Standard Plus will be charged for.

Didn’t realise that Standard Plus was going to be rolled out over much of the network, I wonder what the % premium would be on a standard fare?

It will be interesting to see how this policed on late night weekend services west of Chester or on Saturday morning summer services travelling eastbound from the likes of Abergele and Rhyl….!

 

[sd0733]

Didn’t realise that Standard Plus was going to be rolled out over much of the network, I wonder what the % premium would be on a standard fare?

You can see for yourself https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=CTR&dest=HHD&period=20240705 and put in any station pair and look for the Standard Plus fare.

 

[Towers]

More railway confusion and non-standard practices; wonderful!

 

[John R]

More railway confusion and non-standard practices; wonderful!

A standard plus upgrade from Cardiff to Manchester seems good value at £13.60, or 8.95 with a railcard. I for one applaud TfW for looking to give a sensible price option for a better quality travelling environment.

 

[Towers]

A standard plus upgrade from Cardiff to Manchester seems good value at £13.60, or 8.95 with a railcard. I for one applaud TfW for looking to give a sensible price option for a better quality travelling environment.

I’ll freely admit I have very little time for the ‘every TOC doing their own thing’ approach; passengers have made it unavoidably clear again, and again, and again, that what they want is simplicity, particularly where ticketing is concerned. By all means offer first class if you must, most people can grasp first class and standard class easily enough, but is it really necessary to offer yet another, not seen anywhere else, ‘halfway house’ product? And on a three coach train chugging through Wales? It’s hardly a Pendolino (not a fan of AWC’s own version either, for the record!). And, with depressing predictability, reports are that provision of this product is random across the fleet and its usage, meaning it will appear on services where it’ll be declassified as it doesn’t apply, and presumably at times won’t be present on some services where the tiny percentage of people who understand or care what it is might expect to find it. Confusion reigns.

The railway continues to do itself zero favours in grasping what passengers have been yelling at it very loudly for a very long time!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ll freely admit I have very little time for the ‘every TOC doing their own thing’ approach; passengers have made it unavoidably clear again, and again, and again, that what they want is simplicity, particularly where ticketing is concerned. By all means offer first class if you must, everyone can grasp first class and standard class, but is it really necessary to offer a third, ‘halfway house’ product on a nearly brand new, what, three coach train? And, with depressing predictability, reports are that provision of this product is completely random across the fleet and its useage. Brilliant! The railway continues to do itsself zero favours in grasping what passengers have yelling at it very loudly for a very long time!

Isn't this some sort of workaround to avoid breaking the law by there not being a first class wheelchair space?

 

[Towers]

Isn't this some sort of workaround to avoid breaking the law by there not being a first class wheelchair space?

It could be that. Or it could be a useful upselling opportunity: “You’ve sat in Premium Glitter Shiny Standard with Unicorn Balls on, would you like to stay here rather than relocate and drag all your luggage down the train? Yes? Oh good, card or cash?!…”

Except of course when the duly equipped train turns up on a route where it doesn’t apply, at which point it’s “Oh don’t worry about that, just ignore it, sit anywhere you like….”



There should be Standard Class, and where applicable there should be First Class. Nice and simple, just like the people who buy tickets keep asking for!

 

[John R]

reports are that provision of this product is random across the fleet and its usage

Has it actually been introduced yet?

 

[Krokodil]

And, with depressing predictability, reports are that provision of this product is random across the fleet

Several of the relevant sets haven't been accepted into traffic yet, and the 197 fleet is being stretched to cover for ongoing absences in the other fleets (not to mention unreliability among the 197s themselves). Once the 398s and 756s are all in traffic and the 231s can resume their intended workings, diagramming will stabilise. Until then Control are just having to juggle the resources they've got.

 

[Starmill]

A standard plus upgrade from Cardiff to Manchester seems good value at £13.60, or 8.95 with a railcard. I for one applaud TfW for looking to give a sensible price option for a better quality travelling environment.

If that were what they were doing surely they'd have specified it on, at least, all three car units?

What's the point of having a psuedo First Class on one or two trains a day?

Isn't this some sort of workaround to avoid breaking the law by there not being a first class wheelchair space?

No? There's no first class wheelchair space on loads of units. It's thoughtless and crude, but it's not unlawful.

 

[Krokodil]

What's the point of having a psuedo First Class on one or two trains a day?

The Cardiff-Manchester route is supposed to have better accommodation on every service. Alternating between the full 1st class on a Mk4 set and the Standard Plus on these 197s.

No? There's no first class wheelchair space on loads of units. It's thoughtless and crude, but it's not unlawful.

How old are those units? I suspect that grandfather rights may be a factor.

 

[Starmill]

How old are those units? I suspect that grandfather rights may be a factor.

Why? It's not any more or less discriminatory to not offer a wheelchair space in Standard Premium than First. It's exactly the same accommodation.

 

[Krokodil]

Why? It's not any more or less discriminatory to not offer a wheelchair space in Standard Premium than First. It's exactly the same accommodation.

What makes you think that such decisions have a grounding in logic? Presumably some pen-pusher in London has objected to 1st but not to Standard Plus.

But then it's just like Standard Premium on a 390 - 1st class seats without 1st class service. Maybe that makes a difference, the wheelchair user isn't actually going to be using the seats, are they?

 

[30907]

A quick check (NWP-SHR) shows the SP upgrade (PUG) to be half the Business Zone upgrade (PCU).

 

[Jez]

Why? It's not any more or less discriminatory to not offer a wheelchair space in Standard Premium than First. It's exactly the same accommodation.

Its an upgrade which only offers a more comfortable seat and not everything else first class offers. It can only be purchased from the conductor on the train not in advance like first class tickets can.

 

[Starmill]

What makes you think that such decisions have a grounding in logic? Presumably some pen-pusher in London has objected to 1st but not to Standard Plus.

But then it's just like Standard Premium on a 390 - 1st class seats without 1st class service. Maybe that makes a difference, the wheelchair user isn't actually going to be using the seats, are they?

I'm not I'm just saying there's no obvious grounding in law. Discrimination on the basis of disability is permitted if it's proportionate. It could be proportionate in a small First Class section and where it only affects people who both a) use a wheelchair and b) can't transfer to a seat, and also there's another part of the train with accommodation they can use. But what it's called really isn't going to come into it if so. I can't see any mention of the class of travel being relevant to wheelchair spaces in the Technical Specification for Interoperability. Perhaps there is a reference which I've missed.

Its an upgrade which only offers a more comfortable seat and not everything else first class offers. It can only be purchased from the conductor on the train not in advance like first class tickets can.

Sure. But I don't think that's relevant to the Equality Act duty not to discriminate on protected characteristics. Also, those already holding First Class tickets not being charged is interesting, it certainly passes the "duck test" as First Class.

 

[xotGD]

That might have been 197120 with the Welsh Dragon 'Made in Wales' vinyls on the outside. It's the only unit that has it.

For reference:

 

[Peter Sarf]

For reference:

View attachment 164688

I have endured that sort of obliteration on Megabus. Its a WINDOW for goodness sake !.
If that is where the First Class Minus is then even worse !.

 

[John R]

Might the argument be that the only difference in Standard Premium is the better seat (wider, more leg room, more comfortable). And as a wheelchair user by definition doesn’t use the seat, there is no benefit to them of using SP, and thus no disbenefit if they can’t.

Of course, if they are travelling with companions who want to have the benefit of the better seats, they aren’t able to, which would be one immediate rebuttal of such a justification.

 

[Falcon1200]

Diagramming will always be a bit hit and miss as it is, as they'll never get them to stick to particular services!

diagramming will stabilise

Having two fleets and therefore two sets of diagrams might work in theory, but it never does in practice, as experience with 9 and 11 car Pendolinos shows! And there will also have to be a refund policy for passengers who have booked 'Standard Plus' only for a Standard-only set to turn up. Unless it is simply a 'pay supplement on the day' system?

 

[John R]

Having two fleets and therefore two sets of diagrams might work in theory, but it never does in practice, as experience with 9 and 11 car Pendolinos shows! And there will also have to be a refund policy for passengers who have booked 'Standard Plus' only for a Standard-only set to turn up. Unless it is simply a 'pay supplement on the day' system?

You can only upgrade on the train, according to TfWs website.

 

[Falcon1200]

You can only upgrade on the train, according to TfWs website.

Thanks. That takes care of one issue, at least!

 

[MP393]

Having two fleets and therefore two sets of diagrams might work in theory, but it never does in practice, as experience with 9 and 11 car Pendolinos shows! And there will also have to be a refund policy for passengers who have booked 'Standard Plus' only for a Standard-only set to turn up. Unless it is simply a 'pay supplement on the day' system?

It is onboard upgrades only. The only issue here will be adhoc set swaps, with unfortunately happen quite often with TfW. Of course if the same train crew go through with the new unit, getting a refund if the replacement unit doesn’t have SP will be fairly straight forward, however if a change of train-crew occurs with the set swap, they wouldn’t be able to refund it there and then and it would have to be applied for