TGV derailed Paris - Strasburg (test train not in passenger service)

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the ERTMS operational ? The TGV cab ride I saw was definitely TVM and I'm fairly familiar with it.

This is a recent item on the web from a senior SNCF manager (slides from a presentation): http://www.era.europa.eu/conference...14-40_PerformanceIncreaseERTMSinFR_PIzard.pdf
Slide 2 suggests LGV Est is now ERTMS (since 2014).

 

[185]

Apparently disabled for overspeed testing.

Sort of expected that, would be interesting to know what the linespeed is round that 90° curve, looking at photos of it, it looks pretty well designed for high speed, so would have to have been substantially over to come off. Early days yet, I know.

Some parallels with the 2006 Siemens Test Maglev crash - mostly invited families of staff were lost there.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

https://twitter.com/Swaptronics/status/665557060940075008/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

https://twitter.com/AurelienPoivret/status/665555197947719680/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Looking at the second picture, has one of the coaches been destroyed - would some of that be the remains of the test load?

 

[Zoidberg]

https://twitter.com/Swaptronics/status/665557060940075008/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

https://twitter.com/AurelienPoivret/status/665555197947719680/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Looking at the second picture, has one of the coaches been destroyed - would some of that be the remains of the test load?

Are these the links you meant to post?

https://mobile.twitter.com/Swaptronics/status/665557060940075008/photo/1

https://twitter.com/AurelienPoivret/status/665555197947719680/photo/1

 

[SpacePhoenix]

yep, looks like the forum's bb code for image links doesn't like links to photos on twitter

 

[Alfie1014]

A very sad conclusion to a horrific 24 hours for the French nation. First ever fatalities on the French High Speed network in 30 years of operation. Terrible degree of destruction must have been very high speed, surprised about the fires, the power car's transformers perhaps?

 

[RPM]

Sad news. How long, I wonder, before the anti-HS2 lot latch onto this as evidence of the evils of high speed rail? They didn't waste much time doing so after the Spanish Talgo crash.

 

[jon0844]

Sad news. How long, I wonder, before the anti-HS2 lot latch onto this as evidence of the evils of high speed rail? They didn't waste much time doing so after the Spanish Talgo crash.

Oh, I bet this is the best news they've had in ages. Just as they were all being forgotten about, you can be sure they'll use the tragic deaths for their own gain.

Of course it won't change anything, but let's just watch and see....

 

[Groningen]

Yes; if you get too fast through a curve you can derail the train. It is clear that in Spain and France speedmeasures did not work. In Britain one can also fall asleep behind the wheel of a car; leave the road and end up on the tracks as Gary Neil Hart did in 2001.

 

[notadriver]

Yes; if you get too fast through a curve you can derail the train. It is clear that in Spain and France speedmeasures did not work. In Britain one can also fall asleep behind the wheel of a car; leave the road and end up on the tracks as Gary Neil Hart did in 2001.

In Spain there were no speed 'measures' on that section (there are now ) and in France it was switched off for overspeed testing. Totally abnormal situations which wouldn't normally happen in day to day running. What are you suggesting ?

 

[meridian2]

Condolescenes to those that lost their lives.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sort of expected that, would be interesting to know what the linespeed is round that 90° curve, looking at photos of it, it looks pretty well designed for high speed, so would have to have been substantially over to come off. Early days yet, I know.

It's difficult to tell from the maps during construction, but to complicate matters the LGV route probably makes a deviation approaching the classic junction, switching from left to right hand running for Alsace.
At Baudrecourt I think it does this on the spur from the main line to the classic line, at lower speed.
The aerial picture suggests the train was on the northerly single track approaching the junction (ie left hand running).
Having said that, it will all be bi-directional signalling I expect.

 

[edwin_m]

A very sad conclusion to a horrific 24 hours for the French nation. First ever fatalities on the French High Speed network in 30 years of operation. Terrible degree of destruction must have been very high speed, surprised about the fires, the power car's transformers perhaps?

Not sure if this one does, but test trains in the UK always carry a diesel generator to power the instrumentation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BBC reporting that 5 people are still missing, and that there were children on board.
Clearly not just a technical run.

 

[Zoidberg]

BBC reporting that 5 people are still missing, and that there were children on board.
Clearly not just a technical run.

The BBC news report I heard said that it was a test run and was supposed to be just staff on board, but that some appeared to have taken family members.

Very sad outcome.

 

[jon0844]

What are the usual procedures for test runs on trains then?

I assume that when Airbus test out a plane, they limit the people on board and perhaps have the pilots with extra safety equipment?

On a train, if you're doing something potentially dangerous (like overspeed testing) then I'd have thought you'd have people wearing belts at the very least in case of an incident.

Now I realise that in this case, some of the damage was such that nobody was going to walk away from it, but I would genuinely like to know the protocols.

 

[Swanny200]

What are the usual procedures for test runs on trains then?

I assume that when Airbus test out a plane, they limit the people on board and perhaps have the pilots with extra safety equipment?

On a train, if you're doing something potentially dangerous (like overspeed testing) then I'd have thought you'd have people wearing belts at the very least in case of an incident.

Now I realise that in this case, some of the damage was such that nobody was going to walk away from it, but I would genuinely like to know the protocols.

I think Airbus learned their lessons on doing similar things after this crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296 the pilot has for years tried to say that he hadn't been told of the changes which had caused the crash, but a catalogue of errors occurred on this day. R.I.P to all those who lost their lives in France on Friday, although it makes me wonder if this is a regular thing that rail staff can bring their families on board a train on a test run.

 

[amcluesent]

Once you have family, dignitaries etc. on-board there's an inevitable temptation to show off and push it too far. such as Schettino's 'salute' which sank the Costa Concordia

 

[HowardGWR]

Once you have family, dignitaries etc. on-board there's an inevitable temptation to show off and push it too far. such as Schettino's 'salute' which sank the Costa Concordia

The president of SNCF has said on French media that guests had no business to be on the train.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My firm was involved with the start-up of Eurostar services, and there was a period of "staff only" travel in the weeks leading up to official opening for fare-paying passengers.
It was a "by invitation" service which included contractors and families to simulate a passenger load in order to test all the customer-facing systems.
But the operation was a proper passenger working in all technical respects.
There was no question of "switching the signalling off", or "doing a stunt".

 

[Emblematic]

SNCF have just held a press conference and published background information about the incident on their website http://www.sncf.com/fr/Presse/fil-info/deraillement-eckwersheim956874 and https://twitter.com/SNCF_infopresse. Other than updates on casualties from the local authorities, I doubt we'll get much more information until the investigations (three announced) begin to report.

 

[Stompehh]

I assume that when Airbus test out a plane, they limit the people on board and perhaps have the pilots with extra safety equipment?

Initial proving flights are carried out with a crew of highly trained test pilots, normally 6, only. Noone else allowed anywhere near. They have individual oxygen tanks, wear parachutes and an escape chute/hatch not fitted to series aircraft is provided.

Only once a good number of flights have been carried out proving safety over the entire flight envelope is the testing extended to allow other engineers on board, and even then only with specific needs, not just for a jolly.

 

[furnessvale]

Sort of expected that, would be interesting to know what the linespeed is round that 90° curve, looking at photos of it, it looks pretty well designed for high speed, so would have to have been substantially over to come off. Early days yet, I know.

I have always understood that a cant deficiency of around 13" is the limit above which you can expect to derail.

How that equates to the radius and applied cant on that particular curve I do not know.

 

[Emblematic]

I have always understood that a cant deficiency of around 13" is the limit above which you can expect to derail.

How that equates to the radius and applied cant on that particular curve I do not know.

The SNCF briefing gives an operating speed of 160 km/h for the transition to the classic line, with certification at +10% or 176 km/h. However that's only half the LGV line speed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Initial proving flights are carried out with a crew of highly trained test pilots, normally 6, only. Noone else allowed anywhere near. They have individual oxygen tanks, wear parachutes and an escape chute/hatch not fitted to series aircraft is provided.

No kidding - to allow emergency bailout, the 787 test aircraft had explosive charges on several windows and the crew door, so the pilots could immediately decompress the aircraft and escape in emergency.

 

[jopsuk]

A blogpost illustrating the emergency escape hatch on the test A350.

The A380 had a particularly long "slide" from the flight deck out through the cargo hatch

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Two facts from the SNCF twitter feed linked above:
- they have done 200 test runs since September
- train protection system switched off

 

[LeylandLen]

Obviously insurance claims and compensation claims will be made by the injured and families of the deceased so understandably SNCF will have been told what to say by the legal advisers . Being a test train no families or children would be expected to be on board unless officially invited by SNCF .Maybe the extra weight of the unauthorized passengers contributed to the derailment if it was programmed for a certain weight to be carried ?
As we know weight of passengers and cargo on a plane is evenly distributed to keep the plane balanced , so uneven weight distribution on a high speed TGV would affect its stability !

 

[ExRes]

Sad news. How long, I wonder, before the anti-HS2 lot latch onto this as evidence of the evils of high speed rail? They didn't waste much time doing so after the Spanish Talgo crash.

What a strange and sad attitude, I'm firmly anti HS2 as I believe it to be a dreadful waste of the limited amount of money available for rail transport in this country, do you think this accident is making those who are anti HS2 happy ?

 

[edwin_m]

Obviously insurance claims and compensation claims will be made by the injured and families of the deceased so understandably SNCF will have been told what to say by the legal advisers . Being a test train no families or children would be expected to be on board unless officially invited by SNCF .Maybe the extra weight of the unauthorized passengers contributed to the derailment if it was programmed for a certain weight to be carried ?
As we know weight of passengers and cargo on a plane is evenly distributed to keep the plane balanced , so uneven weight distribution on a high speed TGV would affect its stability !

The weight distribution of the passengers would make only a tiny difference to the overturn speed - a full passenger load is about 20% of the empty weight and would have a similar centre of gravity, so the overall C of G wouldn't move much. The permitted speed is set by passenger comfort criteria and is way below the overturn speed. Even if all 49 people reported to be on board were in the same coach, this would still be much less than the number that could occupy that coach in normal service.

 

[amcluesent]

I'm minded the several children may have been riding in the driving cab. Just a gut feeling.