Thameslink Class 700 - lack of USB/power facilities

[jon0844]

Practicalities aside, really this whole topic is a debate around whether or not you believe USB charge points (and would appear now wifi also), are necessary or not. My personal take is that they absolutely are - aside from being something I often use myself, in an increasingly digital world, it's something the population en masse are coming to expect as most public transport offers such facilities. The issue with the "take a charge pack" arguement is many people (myself included) won't, as it isn't advertised anywhere that these trains dont have charge points. I would suggest the average member of the public is sympathetic enough if their expectations are set prior to boarding, but when something that is so commonplace and so basic is absent, it really becomes a glaring omission.

Any half decent phone, tablet or laptop has more than enough battery life to make charging part way through the day the exception to the rule, and an awful lot of people now have and use power banks (of course you need to remember to charge them too!). Many devices offer reverse charging, so you could bung a bit of power into your laptop from a phone or vice versa.

Apple now has a reserve power feature for travel, which is simple but clever and maybe more will follow with this idea too.

I really do think power on a train is a 'nice to have' and not absolutely essential, although I will agree that people do perhaps expect it now (even if they don't often use it). Just like Wi-Fi, which is often not the best choice for reasons I've mentioned before.

O2 data plans are very poor, then. I have to add more data as a bolt-on and it gets so pricey, that I need Wi-Fi.

O2 has loads of plans, so I suggest you look at changing if you're having to always add more data before the next month. If you are on prepay then perhaps unlimited data isn't an option, but if you're needing data then why not look at a 30 day or 12 month SIM only plan?

 

[Failed Unit]

Any half decent phone, tablet or laptop has more than enough battery life to make charging part way through the day the exception to the rule, and an awful lot of people now have and use power banks (of course you need to remember to charge them too!). Many devices offer reverse charging, so you could bung a bit of power into your laptop from a phone or vice versa.

Apple now has a reserve power feature for travel, which is simple but clever and maybe more will follow with this idea too.

I really do think power on a train is a 'nice to have' and not absolutely essential, although I will agree that people do perhaps expect it now (even if they don't often use it). Just like Wi-Fi, which is often not the best choice for reasons I've mentioned before.



O2 has loads of plans, so I suggest you look at changing if you're having to always add more data before the next month. If you are on prepay then perhaps unlimited data isn't an option, but if you're needing data then why not look at a 30 day or 12 month SIM only plan?

i know it is slightly off topic but does the wi-fi keep connected between potters bar and kings cross. I tend not to bother using my phone between these points because it is so bad. Never tried the 717s to see if you stay connected.

 

[driverd]

I really do think power on a train is a 'nice to have' and not absolutely essential, although I will agree that people do perhaps expect it now (even if they don't often use it). Just like Wi-Fi, which is often not the best choice...

The problem here is, clearly, you're very tech savy and, despite being young enough for society to expect me to be, I am not! I also don't have a "half decent" phone, mine will need to be recharged through the day. For me and plenty of other people, power on train is quite important (as I work in the industry I hear just how important customers believe it to be on a daily basis). I would also argue that, as the industry pushes mobile ticketing more and more, the relevance of on train charging increases. I don't disagree that, in the future, more and more people will have phones that can last all day, but equally, there will always be room for people to forget to charge their phone, have a busy day which has used a lot of the battery, just come off a flight (which, to be fair, now increasingly have charge points on board too) etc which means an on train charge point is useful.

Totally agree about wifi though, it's pretty pointless on a train!

 

[jon0844]

i know it is slightly off topic but does the wi-fi keep connected between potters bar and kings cross. I tend not to bother using my phone between these points because it is so bad. Never tried the 717s to see if you stay connected.

The Wi-Fi is pretty good everywhere, with the external antenna helping out in a few places (like the Potters Bar tunnel). That said, EE now has pretty solid coverage on the ECML (including that tunnel) and both EE and Vodafone pretty good from Blackfriars down to Brighton (indeed I think Vodafone claims to have continuous 4G right down t Gatwick, while work continues to bring 5G for the whole Brighton Main Line). This will benefit the onboard Wi-Fi.

I believe the tunnels into Moorgate should also get coverage sometime soon, perhaps as part of the signalling works, but I am not entirely sure. That is where Wi-Fi does win, if you can't get a mobile signal underground and have to use Wi-Fi.. but Vodafone has already stopped partnering with Virgin to provide free Underground Wi-Fi access (now chargeable) and I imagine the other networks will follow.

In the future, TfL will have mobile coverage underground but there is going to be some time before that extends beyond part of the Jubilee Line.

I'm not against Wi-Fi or USB power sockets, but they are not what I'd consider essential as there are other ways people can get online and stay online - and anyone who could become desperate enough to need power on a train (which may not even work as I've experienced all too often on IC services) has likely already realised the safety net of carrying a power bank.

I would also argue that, as the industry pushes mobile ticketing more and more, the relevance of on train charging increases.

Hence why the Apple reserve power for travel is a good feature. It's currently to allow the use of Apple Pay, but could potentially extend to allowing the display of a barcode for travel.

There are quicker and easier ways to address this potential problem, without having to retrofit trains with costly equipment (which will almost certainly be done during a major refresh, which the 700s are nowhere near requiring).

 

[Failed Unit]

The Wi-Fi is pretty good everywhere, with the external antenna helping out in a few places (like the Potters Bar tunnel). That said, EE now has pretty solid coverage on the ECML (including that tunnel) and both EE and Vodafone pretty good from Blackfriars down to Brighton (indeed I think Vodafone claims to have continuous 4G right down t Gatwick, while work continues to bring 5G for the whole Brighton Main Line). This will benefit the onboard Wi-Fi.

I believe the tunnels into Moorgate should also get coverage sometime soon, perhaps as part of the signalling works, but I am not entirely sure. That is where Wi-Fi does win, if you can't get a mobile signal underground and have to use Wi-Fi.. but Vodafone has already stopped partnering with Virgin to provide free Underground Wi-Fi access (now chargeable) and I imagine the other networks will follow.

In the future, TfL will have mobile coverage underground but there is going to be some time before that extends beyond part of the Jubilee Line.

I'm not against Wi-Fi or USB power sockets, but they are not what I'd consider essential as there are other ways people can get online and stay online - and anyone who could become desperate enough to need power on a train (which may not even work as I've experienced all too often on IC services) has likely already realised the safety net of carrying a power bank.

I agree. I would rather have the seat back tables back if we must spend money on improving the 700s ambiance. I plan my journey on the assumption that it has no power wi-fi. But on a lot of the coaches I have used with USB power supplies they are often broken. I am not sure what is worse never having a service or not one that is often unavailable. USBs seem to be high maintenance. As for the 717s no idea how reliable they are. Have never needed to use it.

 

[jon0844]

I agree. I would rather have the seat back tables back if we must spend money on improving the 700s ambiance. I plan my journey on the assumption that it has no power wi-fi. But on a lot of the coaches I have used with USB power supplies they are often broken. I am not sure what is worse never having a service or not one that is often unavailable. USBs seem to be high maintenance. As for the 717s no idea how reliable they are. Have never needed to use it.

Wi-Fi works well on 717s, the 700s that have it, and 387s. Even after you reach the 50MB limit (a paltry amount), the throttled speed thereafter is okay.. but they do restrict a lot of services, which is perhaps another reason for not using it (no streaming services, limited access to Drive, Google Photos etc, at least without a VPN that likely also reduces the speed further).

Seat back tables are definitely a higher priority, and likely easier to retrofit, or at the very least a 365 sized table or something even smaller that's enough to hold a coffee cup and maybe your phone.

 

[Energy]

Seat back tables are definitely a higher priority, and likely easier to retrofit, or at the very least a 365 sized table or something even smaller that's enough to hold a coffee cup and maybe your phone.

How difficult is it to fit seat back tables to the existing backs? I'd imagine they will need new seat backs but its still plausible it can be done during maintenance.

 

[gallafent]

Any half decent phone, tablet or laptop has more than enough battery life to make charging part way through the day the exception to the rule

I really don't think that's true.

Sure, if you're sitting in one place with good WiFi /and/ cellular coverage, and you're not actually using the phone much (as a computer, rather than as a phone, in particular, so using the screen and the CPU/GPU more than a little), then yes. If you start to move around, though (as people on trains tend to , meaning that it's spending a lot more energy searching for WiFi and cellular signal, or actually use the phone as a pocket computer much, or for navigation on a bike, or for listening to streamed audio or watching streamed video, language learning, or even playing games, etc., it will definitely need charging to get through the 16 hours of the day, in my experience (of a year-old iPhone SE v2, a current model, in this case). Case in point, current state of charge is 24%, before 1500 … that's with battery health 90%, top three apps using battery in the last 24h are BBC Sounds, Duolingo, and Strava, totalling 40% of the usage taken together!

 

[AM9]

Every major operator has unlimited data, or plans with 60, 100, 160, 200GB. Three will do totally unlimited data for £18 a month without haggling and as low as £13 if you push through the retentions team, or know someone who can give you a referral code.

Now some networks also offer unlimited data even on plans with a small allowance, just at a reduced speed, but still fast enough (0.5 - 2Mbps) for checking emails, using WhatsApp or similar, and using Maps and so on. Heck, you can even download content for offline viewing if you don't mind a bit more of a wait. At times, you'd be lucky to get such speeds on train or bus Wi-Fi.

Wi-Fi really isn't a necessity, except perhaps for tourists trying to avoid hefty roaming fees. The DfT chose to make Wi-Fi free for all, which was a kind gesture, but it was arguably more usable before this - not least because the Wi-Fi access points often struggle to manage a large number of users, and simply adding more and more APs adds to the cost and the issues of channel capacity (again; many APs aren't the latest .ac or .ax standards).

If the 700s do get the remaining stock fitted out, perhaps they'll have newer APs and with the ability to aggregate 5G data on EE and Vodafone, you'll be able to get much faster speeds - but why wait if you can access that faster data on your own phone, or a tablet/laptop with integrated LTE or NR.



This.

I think that wi-fi will soon return to it's original purpose, i.e. a wireless ethernet connection within a network, not an alternative to mobile data. 4G LTE is more than adequate for most, 5G might be necessary in areas of high traffic density. We're talking about Thameslink here where the average journey time is under 30 minutes, from it's extremities it is less than 80 minutes and the longest possible (but very rarely undertaken) journey is just over 150minutes. So how many rail passengers that haven't already catered for their needs when not on a train really need wi-fi for those times.

How difficult is it to fit seat back tables to the existing backs? I'd imagine they will need new seat backs but its still plausible it can be done during maintenance.

Weren't the tables supplied on the later batches fitted at the factory where there was no disruption to services and possibly miniscule impacts on delivery of new units.

I really don't think that's true.

Sure, if you're sitting in one place with good WiFi /and/ cellular coverage, and you're not actually using the phone much (as a computer, rather than as a phone, in particular, so using the screen and the CPU/GPU more than a little), then yes. If you start to move around, though (as people on trains tend to , meaning that it's spending a lot more energy searching for WiFi and cellular signal, or actually use the phone as a pocket computer much, or for navigation on a bike, or for listening to streamed audio or watching streamed video, language learning, or even playing games, etc., it will definitely need charging to get through the 16 hours of the day, in my experience (of a year-old iPhone SE v2, a current model, in this case). Case in point, current state of charge is 24%, before 1500 … that's with battery health 90%, top three apps using battery in the last 24h are BBC Sounds, Duolingo, and Strava, totalling 40% of the usage taken together!

That might be typical of heavy users of mobiles, but it certainly isn't typical of rail passengers.

 

[jon0844]

I really don't think that's true.

Sure, if you're sitting in one place with good WiFi /and/ cellular coverage, and you're not actually using the phone much (as a computer, rather than as a phone, in particular, so using the screen and the CPU/GPU more than a little), then yes. If you start to move around, though (as people on trains tend to , meaning that it's spending a lot more energy searching for WiFi and cellular signal, or actually use the phone as a pocket computer much, or for navigation on a bike, or for listening to streamed audio or watching streamed video, language learning, or even playing games, etc., it will definitely need charging to get through the 16 hours of the day, in my experience (of a year-old iPhone SE v2, a current model, in this case). Case in point, current state of charge is 24%, before 1500 … that's with battery health 90%, top three apps using battery in the last 24h are BBC Sounds, Duolingo, and Strava, totalling 40% of the usage taken together!

The iPhone range usually have pretty small batteries. Plenty of phones with 4,000-5000mAh batteries (which in some cases matches that of a tablet!). 6-9 hours of screen on time quite possible, albeit not if you're doing 6-9 hours of intensive gaming!

 

[Mag_seven]

As we no longer appear to be discussing the lack of USB power facilities on class 700s I suggest we call time on this thread.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else they are of course welcome to start a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

thanks.