Thameslink Class 700 - lack of USB/power facilities

[Recessio]

My feeling too but @Recessio seems to think that his access to on-board power was urgent, so I just mentioned the earliest likely time that he could see it if it was to be at all.

Bold of you to assume I am a he I'm just genuinely astonished that buses running on incredibly tight budgets in some of the poorest local authorities in England can have USBs in seat backs, but the DfT didn't think to specify it on new commuter trains designed to last decades in service!

(Actually no wait, that doesnt astonish me at all, pretty typical of our railways...)

Even if they don't go for seat backs USB sockets, what about Class 710-style, having USBs at the end of carriages: how much of a major job would that be, in comparison? Would that still have to wait to a mid-life refit like the current electrical works on some of the Southern Electrostars?

 

[Bald Rick]

Oh yes, that makes sense.

Pacers had WiFi, even buses have it now

Pacers and buses might have 30-40 people on, and at most 150 or so.

A 700 can have 1500-1800 people on regularly. That’s an awful lot of bandwidth. Even the very latest multi 5G systems (coming to a railway near you soon) can only manage, at best, a 1Gb bandwidth for the whole train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2021 ==

Would that still have to wait to a mid-life refit like the current electrical works on some of the Southern Electrostars?

Yes. It means installing new wiring throughout the train, and that means taking the interior panels out, and installing the relevant transformers.

 

[driverd]

Would that still have to wait to a mid-life refit like the current electrical works on some of the Southern Electrostars?

Yes. It means installing new wiring throughout the train, and that means taking the interior panels out, and installing the relevant transformers.

Well, let's be honest, it's more a case of "if the will is there"...

Take, for example, the northern fleet. Refurb is done first, then the digital train mods go in (not in every case, but in a lot of cases). Clearly, removing seats/panels isn't that much of a big deal and can be done independently to a mid life refurb.

I'd also suggest that there will be more than enough spare capacity in the fleet to be able to release one unit on a rolling basis for mods, especially given current timetable requirements.

 

[AM9]

Bold of you to assume I am a he

Sincere apologies if you aren't a he, - even if in these enlightened times we should not make presumptions, a) I would presume that the majority of RUK members are male and b) I am quite 'senior' and as such old habits die hard.

... I'm just genuinely astonished that buses running on incredibly tight budgets in some of the poorest local authorities in England can have USBs in seat backs, but the DfT didn't think to specify it on new commuter trains designed to last decades in service!

(Actually no wait, that doesnt astonish me at all, pretty typical of our railways...)

Even if they don't go for seat backs USB sockets, what about Class 710-style, having USBs at the end of carriages: how much of a major job would that be, in comparison? Would that still have to wait to a mid-life refit like the current electrical works on some of the Southern Electrostars?

Best that I refer you to Bald Rick's post #242 above, the nature of the class 700s and their extreme task of carrying passengers is such that providing any meaningful power access or wi-fi as a casual update is no mean feat. In non-covid times by design, they probably carry more passengers per metre length than any other single class on national rail. They are still in the early years of their service life and such is the nature of railway equipment operation, that unless there is a serious operational or safety case for rapid modification, nothing other than maintenance/repair is carried out, - and the size of the fleet is scaled accordingly. Any non-essential visits to workshops would have severe impacts on services. As regards why the 700s didn't have power provision specified when ordered, - they were specified in 2008/9 at which time smartphones were not exactly significant in the market place let alone considered essential. There were far more important details to be resolved, including wi-fi which as wiring infrastructure has been included in them. I guess it was recognised that specifying the actual routers at that time would be pointless as things have moved on a great deal since then. It is fair criticism as to why wi-fi isn't installed fully in every train in the class (I've travelled on some that have got it) however as Bald Rick imples, it would never be good enough for some heavy users so really it's better for them to rely on their ISPs for their needs.
The Electrostars are of course mostly in or nearing their mid-life period.

 

[Ianno87]

Well, let's be honest, it's more a case of "if the will is there"...

Take, for example, the northern fleet. Refurb is done first, then the digital train mods go in (not in every case, but in a lot of cases). Clearly, removing seats/panels isn't that much of a big deal and can be done independently to a mid life refurb.

I'd also suggest that there will be more than enough spare capacity in the fleet to be able to release one unit on a rolling basis for mods, especially given current timetable requirements.

Of course, it's all technically do-able... for a cost. Depends how much is being charged to do it is the problem, and whether that's good value for taxpayers.

 

[Energy]

Well, let's be honest, it's more a case of "if the will is there"...

More if the money was there. Taking them out of service unnecessarilly to retrofit would be expensive for something I don't think gets used as much as people say it is, I don't see USB ports getting used on buses a lot.

 

[Ianno87]

More if the money was there. Taking them out of service unnecessarilly to retrofit would be expensive for something I don't think gets used as much as people say it is, I don't see USB ports getting used on buses a lot.

Remembering that each trainset taken out of service is one less spare in the fleet, which is one less for the train maintainer to supply when things go wrong, and thus more likely to incur penalties if a train cannot be supplied. And that's going to be factored into the quote for the work....

 

[Mikey C]

Remembering that each trainset taken out of service is one less spare in the fleet, which is one less for the train maintainer to supply when things go wrong, and thus more likely to incur penalties if a train cannot be supplied. And that's going to be factored into the quote for the work....

On that basis you'd never refurbish or upgrade ANY train...

 

[Ianno87]

On that basis you'd never refurbish or upgrade ANY train...

Right now, you'd be taking the trains out of service (and incurring risk of penalties) purely to install plug sockets. Which doesn't really add up - all the price and risk would fall on a relatively minor improvement.

If tied in with a mid-life refurbishment, then you get much higher benefits to stack against the risk, so "the numbers" are much more rational.

 

[jon0844]

I think you're flogging a dead horse there. Pacers had WiFi, even buses have it now. I signed up for a cheaper phone contract with a small data allowance simply because WiFi is so common. Ironically, the 317s that the 700s partially replaced had WiFi fitted almost as soon as they moved to Greater Anglia.

Wi-Fi is usually awful once you have lots of users. Roaming between APs can be problematic, and depending on the positioning and how your device chooses to roam, you can get drop outs or major loss in signal. I am not sure how many Wi-Fi 6 APs are in use in coffee shops, cafes, hotels etc - but Wi-Fi 5 has limitations and many hotspots will be Wi-Fi 4. There's also the issue of what backhaul they have, and are willing to give you (not just on a train - but in a Starbucks etc), and security. Is the site you're connecting to what you think it is? Plus have they set isolation so you can't do a network search and see other users connected to the same Wi-Fi network?

I pay for unlimited data on my phone, and have 5G access. With a modem that supports 7 carrier aggregation, I can get up to 400Mbps on 4G, let alone 5G, and that's all for me (okay pedants; it's shared with other users on the cell site, but it's not one connection on a cell site that's divided down again between potentially hundreds of people).

I use Wi-Fi on Avanti West Coast because the glass coating forces me to (as the solar reflection blocks the phone signal quite effectively) but on other trains, I rely on my own connection which works well nearly all the time. The train Wi-Fi only has the edge in some tunnels where a 9 or 11 car train might have part of the train still outside, getting a signal I cannot. That's about it.

I fully agree that in the future, I doubt Wi-Fi will be considered a must. Indeed, for people like me and many others, I've never thought Wi-Fi was the way forward bar your own home system that you know and can control, or that of an office and other 'trusted' location.

I think the DfT should have had less interest in Wi-Fi on public transport and more interest in working with Network Rail to come up with a safe way to install infrastructure on the railway, suitably isolated from GSM-R (with a plan towards migration to LTE-R at some point) which seems to be happening now, with the 5G rollout on the Brighton Mainline (and hopefully happening nationally over the next 5 or 10 years). For a long time this was considered an absolute no-no, and networks couldn't do it for fear of bypassing the usual planning applications, but it was always possible - just like putting mobile coverage inside tunnels, first with Eurostar, then HS1 and parts of the Underground.

More if the money was there. Taking them out of service unnecessarilly to retrofit would be expensive for something I don't think gets used as much as people say it is, I don't see USB ports getting used on buses a lot.

5V/1A (5W) is the norm in my experience, and given people aren't likely on buses that long (YMMV) you may get 4 or 5% added on to your charge if you're lucky. I won't go on about providing USB-PD for 18, 65, 1xxW and above - which would need better wiring than some of the creative stuff I've seen on buses (that would never, ever, be allowed on a train).

 

[Failed Unit]

Right now, you'd be taking the trains out of service (and incurring risk of penalties) purely to install plug sockets. Which doesn't really add up - all the price and risk would fall on a relatively minor improvement.

If tied in with a mid-life refurbishment, then you get much higher benefits to stack against the risk, so "the numbers" are much more rational.

Right now the fleet isn’t exactly getting taxed as the timetable is reduced. I would argue that they have missed the boat.

 

[jon0844]

Right now the fleet isn’t exactly getting taxed as the timetable is reduced. I would argue that they have missed the boat.

Realistically, during the pandemic and when the DfT was funding keeping trains going, what were the chances they'd start a project to retrofit power sockets on the 700s?

 

[Ianno87]

Realistically, during the pandemic and when the DfT was funding keeping trains going, what were the chances they'd start a project to retrofit power sockets on the 700s?

Yep - that too.

 

[Recessio]

Sincere apologies if you aren't a he, - even if in these enlightened times we should not make presumptions, a) I would presume that the majority of RUK members are male and b) I am quite 'senior' and as such old habits die hard.

No worries and you're probably right about the forum demographic

Best that I refer you to Bald Rick's post #242 above, the nature of the class 700s and their extreme task of carrying passengers is such that providing any meaningful power access or wi-fi as a casual update is no mean feat. In non-covid times by design, they probably carry more passengers per metre length than any other single class on national rail. They are still in the early years of their service life and such is the nature of railway equipment operation, that unless there is a serious operational or safety case for rapid modification, nothing other than maintenance/repair is carried out, - and the size of the fleet is scaled accordingly. Any non-essential visits to workshops would have severe impacts on services. As regards why the 700s didn't have power provision specified when ordered, - they were specified in 2008/9 at which time smartphones were not exactly significant in the market place let alone considered essential. There were far more important details to be resolved, including wi-fi which as wiring infrastructure has been included in them. I guess it was recognised that specifying the actual routers at that time would be pointless as things have moved on a great deal since then. It is fair criticism as to why wi-fi isn't installed fully in every train in the class (I've travelled on some that have got it) however as Bald Rick imples, it would never be good enough for some heavy users so really it's better for them to rely on their ISPs for their needs.
The Electrostars are of course mostly in or nearing their mid-life period.

Very informative and interesting, thank you @AM9 and @Bald Rick. Hadn't considered how long the design spec is frozen, you're right that the world was very different in 2008/09!

 

[jon0844]

More efficient SoCs and bigger capacity batteries makes the need to charge regularly smaller all the time, along with power banks that can charge at high speed.

Plus my MacBook Pro can go 12-18 hours, which is probably more than I'd ever need before I need to charge. That covers most long haul flights, let alone a commute and 7-8 hour working day.

 

[AM9]

Right now the fleet isn’t exactly getting taxed as the timetable is reduced. I would argue that they have missed the boat.

That sounds like fitting compliant power sockets can be organised as an overtime filler, shoot down to B&Q, buy a few 13A sockets and a drum of 2.5mm T&E with which somebody can knock off a few coaches in the stabling sidings.
But seriously, just because demand is temporarily down, (and wildly unpredictable because of the effects of the pandemic), I doubt that workshop resources could, - or should be committed to such a spurious perceived need as power for passenger's lifestyle whilst they take a routine outer
suburban or metro rail journey.

 

[Failed Unit]

That sounds like fitting compliant power sockets can be organised as an overtime filler, shoot down to B&Q, buy a few 13A sockets and a drum of 2.5mm T&E with which somebody can knock off a few coaches in the stabling sidings.
But seriously, just because demand is temporarily down, (and wildly unpredictable because of the effects of the pandemic), I doubt that workshop resources could, - or should be committed to such a spurious perceived need as power for passenger's lifestyle whilst they take a routine outer
suburban or metro rail journey.

I agree. Waste of time. Tables on the other hand……

 

[mmh]

ight now, you'd be taking the trains out of service (and incurring risk of penalties) purely to install plug sockets. Which doesn't really add up - all the price and risk would fall on a relatively minor improvement.

Well, to be picky, right now you're at the end of a year-long plus period of reduced service taking trains out of service would have had far less, potentially no, impact on services and penalties than at any other time in memory.

 

[jon0844]

Well, to be picky, right now you're at the end of a year-long plus period of reduced service taking trains out of service would have had far less, potentially no, impact on services and penalties than at any other time in memory.

I know the Government awarded contracts to their chums, but I still can't see how the DfT would have sought to price up and spec a job to fit power sockets and Wi-Fi during an unknown amount of downtime, least of all find the people to do it (who might be having to distance or isolate/shield).

 

[D6975]

Here in Bristol the main bus operator is First. A couple of years ago most of the fleet had free Wi-Fi, but no USB sockets. Then the fleet of gas buses were introduced which have USB but the Wi-Fi wasn’t commissioned. Then the rest of the fleet slowly had the Wi-Fi decommissioned, I haven’t been on a bus with it still operating for ages. Such is progress in First land.

 

[AM9]

Well, to be picky, right now you're at the end of a year-long plus period of reduced service taking trains out of service would have had far less, potentially no, impact on services and penalties than at any other time in memory.

A programme to fit power outlets on trains like the 700s would be quite long in terms of design approval, then materials procurement and finally the resources (both human and workshop premises) to do the job on 1,140 20m cars. I doubt that the first train would be completed in less than 2 years in normal times. Add delays caused by staff shortages, supplier staff and materials shortages, delivery issues (both COVID-19 and Brexit) and this 'quick job' would probably run almost into the mid-life refurb (i.e. post 2030).

 

[Bikeman78]

Remembering that each trainset taken out of service is one less spare in the fleet, which is one less for the train maintainer to supply when things go wrong, and thus more likely to incur penalties if a train cannot be supplied. And that's going to be factored into the quote for the work....

To be fair, there are still fewer Thameslink trains running so there ought to be some 700s sitting spare.

 

[AM9]

To be fair, there are still fewer Thameslink trains running so there ought to be some 700s sitting spare.

But adding power hardware isn't Just the availability of the rolling stock, -see my post #261 above.

 

[Bikeman78]

A 700 can have 1500-1800 people on regularly. That’s an awful lot of bandwidth. Even the very latest multi 5G systems (coming to a railway near you soon) can only manage, at best, a 1Gb bandwidth for the whole train.

For what percentage of a typical weekday would a 700 have 1500 people on board (pre Covid)? I was responding to your comment that they shouldn't have it in order to save the cost of providing and maintaining the WiFi. Most other trains have it now, including some 700s. In a few years they'll probably be the only trains without it.

 

[mmh]

For what percentage of a typical weekday would a 700 have 1500 people on board (pre Covid)? I was responding to your comment that they shouldn't have it in order to save the cost of providing and maintaining the WiFi. Most other trains have it now, including some 700s. In a few years they'll probably be the only trains without it.

A train with 1500 people on it will create insignificantly more data usage than a train with half that number on board, as the majority of standees will be crush loaded and won't be actively using any device. The argument would be akin to a supermarket or a coffee shop deciding against having wifi because they're sometimes busy. And, as you say it hasn't made WiFi impossible on a subsection of 700s, which quite effectively makes the argument redundant.

 

[Ianno87]

A train with 1500 people on it will create insignificantly more data usage than a train with half that number on board, as the majority of standees will be crush loaded and won't be actively using any device. The argument would be akin to a supermarket or a coffee shop deciding against having wifi because they're sometimes busy. And, as you say it hasn't made WiFi impossible on a subsection of 700s, which quite effectively makes the argument redundant.

Nobody is saying it's impossible - it just has a ££££ cost associated to provide the capability, and whether or not that is good value for taxpayers.

 

[AM9]

For what percentage of a typical weekday would a 700 have 1500 people on board (pre Covid)? I was responding to your comment that they shouldn't have it in order to save the cost of providing and maintaining the WiFi. Most other trains have it now, including some 700s. In a few years they'll probably be the only trains without it.

Pre COVID Thameslink services had healthy loads between the peaks and very large loads during them. The proportion of passengers using wi-fi in my experience was quite low, - mainly because it wasn't particularly good and once the novelty of 'free' access had been tried, the majority of train surfers boarded with their phones already logged into mobile data and don't bother with the wi-fi. I find it laughable seeing every shop, pub, restaurant and many streets shouting that they have 'free!' wi-fi (just because their router can) when nearly everybody uses their contract data allowance.
What would be worth doing is equipping tunnels and other difficult locations with mobile network repeaters that enable continuous internet access. That is the future of on-train communications when every user has mobile data according to their 'needs' built into their contract. As mmh says, on a crush loaded train, few people will bother fiddling about with their phones. The fact that only a few TL trains have wi-fi running doesn't seem to stop passengers travelling so really, nothing needs to change there.

 

[driverd]

A programme to fit power outlets on trains like the 700s would be quite long in terms of design approval, then materials procurement and finally the resources (both human and workshop premises) to do the job on 1,140 20m cars. I doubt that the first train would be completed in less than 2 years in normal times. Add delays caused by staff shortages, supplier staff and materials shortages, delivery issues (both COVID-19 and Brexit) and this 'quick job' would probably run almost into the mid-life refurb (i.e. post 2030).

Notwithstanding the scale of the work for a fleet as large as the class 700, I can't help but feel there's a certain degree of scepticism on this forum sometimes. It's certainly not beyond the wit of man to fit USB charge points. As I mentioned earlier, you only have to look to northern, where the refurb is done first, train re-enters service, then train leaves service for digital train mods (which, if other posters are correct, will involve removing all the freshly fitted seats and panels to fit sockets etc). I'd also like to suggest that now, with the reduced timetable, would be ideal to make such modifications if a contract could be drawn up quickly, rather than having units out of traffic for longer periods during a mid-life refurb. As a general rule, units often have modifications done ad-hoc, rather than saving everything for one big refurb job, because, cost aside, it actually makes more sense to have units out of traffic for a few days/a week in dribs and drabs, than lose each unit for weeks/months when the whole fleet is rapidly approaching the same mileage/hours and due an exam & refurb.

Practicalities aside, really this whole topic is a debate around whether or not you believe USB charge points (and would appear now wifi also), are necessary or not. My personal take is that they absolutely are - aside from being something I often use myself, in an increasingly digital world, it's something the population en masse are coming to expect as most public transport offers such facilities. The issue with the "take a charge pack" arguement is many people (myself included) won't, as it isn't advertised anywhere that these trains dont have charge points. I would suggest the average member of the public is sympathetic enough if their expectations are set prior to boarding, but when something that is so commonplace and so basic is absent, it really becomes a glaring omission.

Once again, we also return to the arguement that these are not suburban or commuter trains. Brighton to London is a regional express run; infact, I'd argue anywhere south of Redhill to north of London Bridge falls into such a category and the various news articles, reviews and feedback websites, where the general public can voice their opinions, seem to reflect this in terms of their expectations from the train. Thats really the butt of the issue - the 700 provides everything from suburban metro to regional express services, sometimes in the same journey. Whilst, inevitably, there will need to be compromise on facilities, in my opinion, the unit swings way too much towards the metro type work, USB charge points included.

 

[jon0844]

For what percentage of a typical weekday would a 700 have 1500 people on board (pre Covid)? I was responding to your comment that they shouldn't have it in order to save the cost of providing and maintaining the WiFi. Most other trains have it now, including some 700s. In a few years they'll probably be the only trains without it.

Every major operator has unlimited data, or plans with 60, 100, 160, 200GB. Three will do totally unlimited data for £18 a month without haggling and as low as £13 if you push through the retentions team, or know someone who can give you a referral code.

Now some networks also offer unlimited data even on plans with a small allowance, just at a reduced speed, but still fast enough (0.5 - 2Mbps) for checking emails, using WhatsApp or similar, and using Maps and so on. Heck, you can even download content for offline viewing if you don't mind a bit more of a wait. At times, you'd be lucky to get such speeds on train or bus Wi-Fi.

Wi-Fi really isn't a necessity, except perhaps for tourists trying to avoid hefty roaming fees. The DfT chose to make Wi-Fi free for all, which was a kind gesture, but it was arguably more usable before this - not least because the Wi-Fi access points often struggle to manage a large number of users, and simply adding more and more APs adds to the cost and the issues of channel capacity (again; many APs aren't the latest .ac or .ax standards).

If the 700s do get the remaining stock fitted out, perhaps they'll have newer APs and with the ability to aggregate 5G data on EE and Vodafone, you'll be able to get much faster speeds - but why wait if you can access that faster data on your own phone, or a tablet/laptop with integrated LTE or NR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2021 ==

I find it laughable seeing every shop, pub, restaurant and many streets shouting that they have 'free!' wi-fi (just because their router can) when nearly everybody uses their contract data allowance.
What would be worth doing is equipping tunnels and other difficult locations with mobile network repeaters that enable continuous internet access.

This.

 

[Envy123]

Every major operator has unlimited data, or plans with 60, 100, 160, 200GB. Three will do totally unlimited data for £18 a month without haggling and as low as £13 if you push through the retentions team, or know someone who can give you a referral code.

O2 data plans are very poor, then. I have to add more data as a bolt-on and it gets so pricey, that I need Wi-Fi.