Thameslink Dec 2019 - Where are we at?

[MML]

What infrastructure improvements would be required at Bedford to permit 12-car 700/1 to be used on all Bedford to Brighton/Gatwick services ?
How many sidings would need to be extended ? or new sidings provided ? And could a siding or two be constructed north of the station for 12-car stabling ? St. Albans has a central siding allowing trains to reverse from slow down to slow up which appears to work quite well, albeit only with 8-car units.
At present, it appears that Cricklewood has to be used to stable some 12-car units simply due to insufficient provision at Bedford.

 

[Bald Rick]

What infrastructure improvements would be required at Bedford to permit 12-car 700/1 to be used on all Bedford to Brighton/Gatwick services ?
How many sidings would need to be extended ? or new sidings provided ? And could a siding or two be constructed north of the station for 12-car stabling ? St. Albans has a central siding allowing trains to reverse from slow down to slow up which appears to work quite well, albeit only with 8-car units.
At present, it appears that Cricklewood has to be used to stable some 12-car units simply due to insufficient provision at Bedford.

None. Just need more 12 car trains.

 

[bramling]

What infrastructure improvements would be required at Bedford to permit 12-car 700/1 to be used on all Bedford to Brighton/Gatwick services ?
How many sidings would need to be extended ? or new sidings provided ? And could a siding or two be constructed north of the station for 12-car stabling ? St. Albans has a central siding allowing trains to reverse from slow down to slow up which appears to work quite well, albeit only with 8-car units.
At present, it appears that Cricklewood has to be used to stable some 12-car units simply due to insufficient provision at Bedford.

Without working out the exact number, it would need a good handful.

At present the timetable sends some 700/1s down to Cricklewood to stable, whilst to balance some 700/0s come up to Bedford off the Luton or St Albans circuits. Add in the 700/0 diagrams on the Brighton line services. I presume if the units were available then it could be made to work with more of this, albeit with a degree of inefficiency.

On the GN side there's one 700/0 Cambridge-Brighton diagram which starts and finishes at Hornsey. Cambridge is also short on stabling space, there's currently a 700/1 which works empty from and to Hornsey, and also 2x387 which go empty to Letchworth to stable overnight (hence why there's 387s on some of the Letchworth stopping services on Sundays).

 

[Supercoss]

Additional siding space is being provided at Luton (Crescent Rd) where a non wired headshunt and siding will be wired and prior to that a ground frame re Instated /Easter 2020/
This will allow less non revenue mileage with associated train crew depot *and* allow ecs to depart directly onto up slow without reversal to head towards London .

 

[jon0844]

Maybe Boris will fund the extension of a number of 8 car 700s into 12 cars?

 

[bramling]

Maybe Boris will fund the extension of a number of 8 car 700s into 12 cars?

If Maidstone to Cambridge isn’t going to happen then that’s 8x700 spare. Could easily replace with 365 or 387.

 

[AlbertBeale]

No - 700s already run the relevant 2Yxx Welwyn Garden City semi-fasts which will go to Sevenoaks - e.g. ones like this https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W46967/2019-12-16/detailed

Don't forget that Kings Cross loses a suburban platform fairly soon which will mean these services have to go to Thameslink rather than Kings Cross.

Why's that? What will happen to the space released if they cut back to only 2 suburban platforms? (I guess they can't use that to add another main platform.)

Also, does any remodelling mean that platforms numbers 0-8 will become 1-9 at last?

 

[hwl]

true. But I read that they are not sure if the core and many flat junctions south of London Bridge can take it. Coupled with the fact the 700s MTIN is about ⅓ of what they expected. It appears the chances of this service ever operating appear slim. The article i read also stated the core probably can’t take 24tph.

hopefully as an insider you may hear more positive things then what is in the press.

The other big issue not picked up on so far is that the traffic management software isn't up the task in reality and could take along time to fix hence no rush to get all the other issues sorted quickly.

 

[43066]

The other big issue not picked up on so far is that the traffic management software isn't up the task in reality and could take along time to fix hence no rush to get all the other issues sorted quickly.

Aren’t TL drivers cabs due to get a DAS at some point? No sign of it yet as far as I’m aware (I appreciate that probably isn’t anything to do with traffic management software used in ROCs).

 

[AlbertBeale]

Aren’t TL drivers cabs due to get a DAS at some point? No sign of it yet as far as I’m aware...

Apologies for ignorance - but what's a DAS?

 

[43066]

Apologies for ignorance - but what's a DAS?

DAS = Driver Advisory System (my bad, excessive use of acronyms!).

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2016/03/18/das-a-new-roll-out-opportunity/

Driver Advisory Systems (DAS) are becoming established as a useful operating tool in the thrust to achieve improvements in train running performance. First Group have led the way with DAS implementation and an article describing the usage and experience appeared in issue 104 (June 2013). Since then, other train operators (London Midland, SW Trains and Freightliner) are investing in the technology and seeing the benefits that it can yield.

DAS, in its simplest form, enables the driver to monitor the timetabled path of a train to ascertain whether the train will reach its next timing point on schedule and to give an advisory speed for this to be achieved. If the train is running early, then a lower than normal speed is displayed so enabling fuel and energy consumption to be minimised. Similarly, if the train is late, then a higher advisory speed can be indicated if the line and train speed limits permit this. The benefits are twofold: getting a train to arrive at the correct point in time can avoid timetable conflicts with other trains; and it can avoid the need to brake at adverse signals, thus saving wear and tear.

 

[Aictos]

Additional siding space is being provided at Luton (Crescent Rd) where a non wired headshunt and siding will be wired and prior to that a ground frame re Instated /Easter 2020/
This will allow less non revenue mileage with associated train crew depot *and* allow ecs to depart directly onto up slow without reversal to head towards London .

How long is the current wired up siding at Luton?

That ground frame though, can’t it be controlled directly by the signaller using motor points?

Also at Brighton, between the Brighton Mainline and the curve to Lewes there’s still some sidings that are overgrown with weeds and bushes etc... I know they’re at Brighton but can they be used at all? Equally when you pass the station to the immediate north of Brighton there appears to be a large yard with only 2 maybe 3 sidings with room for a least 3 more.

 

[DerekC]

Aren’t TL drivers cabs due to get a DAS at some point? No sign of it yet as far as I’m aware (I appreciate that probably isn’t anything to do with traffic management software used in ROCs).

A form of DAS is built into the design of the Class 700 DMI (Driver-machine interface) that also handles ETCS and AWS/TPWS displays. It hasn't been activated yet and I am not sure if what was designed in is compatible with NR's latest traffic management system. (The onboard DAS was designed quite a few years ago).

 

[JonathanH]

Why's that? What will happen to the space released if they cut back to only 2 suburban platforms? (I guess they can't use that to add another main platform.)

Also, does any remodelling mean that platforms numbers 0-8 will become 1-9 at last?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ucture-discussion-aka-kings-uncrossed.158859/

Think it allows platforms 0-8 to all take a 10-car IET https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ka-kings-uncrossed.158859/page-2#post-3274135, allows less restrictive speeds in the station approaches and deals with the narrow platform 10/11 island.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ka-kings-uncrossed.158859/page-2#post-3274135

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect the Lincoln, Hull trains and Grand Central services could end up in these.

 

[hwl]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ucture-discussion-aka-kings-uncrossed.158859/

Think it allows platforms 0-8 to all take a 10-car IET https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ka-kings-uncrossed.158859/page-2#post-3274135, allows less restrictive speeds in the station approaches and deals with the narrow platform 10/11 island.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ka-kings-uncrossed.158859/page-2#post-3274135

All but one of the main shed platforms can take 10 car IET at the moment and all should be able to take 11car IET afterwards

 

[hwl]

I suspect the Lincoln, Hull trains and Grand Central services could end up in these.

Agreed. The timing work around Thameslink services for using the western most pair of tracks.

 

[Failed Unit]

It may be because we have less trains at the weekend. But on Saturday the Kings Cross semi-fast leaves at x28 and x58. 8 minutes turn around. May kill recovery for even minor issues. But they can save a set and use 1 platform only at kings cross using the Saturday timings.

 

[jon0844]

It may be because we have less trains at the weekend. But on Saturday the Kings Cross semi-fast leaves at x28 and x58. 8 minutes turn around. May kill recovery for even minor issues. But they can save a set and use 1 platform only at kings cross using the Saturday timings.

The shortened timings and less stock/drivers certainly played a part in the slow recovery on Saturday following a fatality at Stevenage. Where the 2Cxx services usually have long stays at KGX, the impact would have been lessened (slightly as there are still going to be issues with the position of drivers when there are so many swaps along the way).

I'm just waiting for sufficient upgrade works (and the new signalling is likely to be 2024/5 now) to potentially one day allow for more stopping services on the ECML, so we could get 4tph instead of 2 in the week and even Saturday and/or Sunday.

 

[43066]

A form of DAS is built into the design of the Class 700 DMI (Driver-machine interface) that also handles ETCS and AWS/TPWS displays. It hasn't been activated yet and I am not sure if what was designed in is compatible with NR's latest traffic management system. (The onboard DAS was designed quite a few years ago).

Thanks for the clarification.

IIRC correctly they were talking about retro fitting it to 319s and 377s at one stage, so it has clearly been in the offing for quite a while!

 

[bramling]

The shortened timings and less stock/drivers certainly played a part in the slow recovery on Saturday following a fatality at Stevenage. Where the 2Cxx services usually have long stays at KGX, the impact would have been lessened (slightly as there are still going to be issues with the position of drivers when there are so many swaps along the way).

I'm just waiting for sufficient upgrade works (and the new signalling is likely to be 2024/5 now) to potentially one day allow for more stopping services on the ECML, so we could get 4tph instead of 2 in the week and even Saturday and/or Sunday.

I can’t see there being demand for 4tph, even south of Welwyn these services are pretty lightly loaded off-peak now they are 8-car.

More beneficial would be running the fast Peterborough and Baldock services off-peak, even at 1tph each.

 

[Failed Unit]

I can’t see there being demand for 4tph, even south of Welwyn these services are pretty lightly loaded off-peak now they are 8-car.

More beneficial would be running the fast Peterborough and Baldock services off-peak, even at 1tph each.

Stopping at WGC to give back some of the lost connections. Although I suspect many stations south of WGC probably double back at Finsbury park now.

 

[philjo]

There was mention through our local rail user groups last month that GTR currently only have the access rights for the Baldock peak services until December 2020. The additional LNER services starting in 2021 will use these paths south of Hitchin. The user groups and local councils are currently discussing this with GTR and Network Rail.

 

[RichardN]

None. Just need more 12 car trains.

Take 2 coaches out of each of the 707s and add them to some of the 8 coach 700s.

Then Southern could get rid of their 313s. I realise it isn't that simple!

 

[jon0844]

I can’t see there being demand for 4tph, even south of Welwyn these services are pretty lightly loaded off-peak now they are 8-car.

More beneficial would be running the fast Peterborough and Baldock services off-peak, even at 1tph each.

At some times, especially mid-week, you're right but you could perhaps have some different stopping patterns. It would certainly help people at Potters Bar, Hatfield and WGC make connections at Stevenage. It also helps when there's a train cancelled with less waiting time for the next.

Perhaps an alternative is to have some of those PBO services stop at those stations on weekends. But if they're well loaded then nobody wants them having passengers filling seats who bail by Stevenage.

1tph for most of Sunday (bar mornings and late afternoons) is definitely no good, although until May with all Moorgate trains at weekends via King's Cross, it has become a little easier (at the obvious expense of anyone wanting to go into the city, in particular Shoreditch, at weekends).

 

[AlexC93]

Also missing off the list is the Kentish Town to Orpington trains which were scheduled to run on a Saturday but have not happened yet.

 

[jon0844]

Take 2 coaches out of each of the 707s and add them to some of the 8 coach 700s.

Then Southern could get rid of their 313s. I realise it isn't that simple!

I am sure there was/is an option to fill the 8 cars, hence the numbering of the coaches already set up in this way.

The question is if and when the DfT exercises this option, or just plods along with short-formed trains at times when there's a shortage of 12 cars for maintenance/repairs.

 

[bramling]

There was mention through our local rail user groups last month that GTR currently only have the access rights for the Baldock peak services until December 2020. The additional LNER services starting in 2021 will use these paths south of Hitchin. The user groups and local councils are currently discussing this with GTR and Network Rail.

I’ve heard that one. I’d expect an almighty local backlash were they to disappear, as they are rather popular. What’s the point of introducing them only to take them away again?!

 

[ScotGG]

It will be skewed by not counting freedom pass trips this year compared to last though that is higher than other London area TOCs

 

[D365]

At some times, especially mid-week, you're right but you could perhaps have some different stopping patterns. It would certainly help people at Potters Bar, Hatfield and WGC make connections at Stevenage. It also helps when there's a train cancelled with less waiting time for the next.

Perhaps an alternative is to have some of those PBO services stop at those stations on weekends. But if they're well loaded then nobody wants them having passengers filling seats who bail by Stevenage.

Would it be selfish to say that I don't want to see more additional stops on PBO services..!