Thameslink driver refuses to move train 16/11

[dk1]

There needs to be some sort of education campaign about staying out of the dispatch corridor, i.e. the yellow line. Stand behind it unless getting on or off a train, simple. 100% with the driver in this instance. Can't believe the platform staff were arguing with the driver instead of doing their job and getting people back, doing PA announcements, etc. Ridiculous.

We have some fantastic platform staff on my patch. I can’t even imagine any of them arguing me with me about safe dispatch.

 

[dmncf]

From what I've seen, the PCB remains in OFF position and the driver pushes a single ATO START button. I've often wondered if the DSD has to be held down in ATO too.

Strange that it's a single ATO START button because the Underground demand two pressed together to make it a positive action. See the two green buttons.

https://fft-keymodernrailways.b-cdn.net/sites/modernrailways/files/styles/article_body/public/imported/2020-03-24/img_95-1_8.jpg

Is ATO now in everyday use on the Thameslink core? I recall there being a period in which the hardware was ready but drivers weren't trained to use it.

 

[irish_rail]

Driver was absolutely right. After the Merseyrail manslaughter case - the train must wait.

If every PA, verbal request, train PA etc has not moved the passengers back - no sweat or stress - the train does not move.

The 15 minute delay might educate those passengers stood beyond the line, and those irate people stood behind them might err... assist them in moving back. Horizontally.

Absolutely. The ridiculous decision to jail the guard involved in the James St incident has led to inevitable consequences. 100 percent support the driver who no doubt is in no hurry to lose his or her liberty when a passenger falls underneath the train.

 

[Signal_Box]

Witnessed the most bizarre incident at Farringdon yesterday evening, which involved GTR platform staff arguing with a driver.

At approximately 17:00, a Down Thameslink train formed of a 12-car Class 700 arrived, being a narrow platform and peak hour it was obviously very busy but nothing unusual for that time of day.

The driver refused to move the train on the grounds that too many people are over the yellow line and it's unsafe to self dispatch, he wouldn't depart until after all passengers have moved back.

Around 10 minutes (yes - 10 minutes!) of sitting idle in the platform, the station staff approached the cab and knocked on the door and began arguing with the driver.

The conversation went along these lines:

"What do you expect us to do? There's two of us and 24 sets of doors - we can't be everywhere at once!"

"The longer you stay here and refuse to move, the more overcrowded it gets. You're just delaying the service."

"Have you seen the Underground platforms? They're worse than us - yet they're self dispatching every minute of the day!"

Despite all these valid points by the platform staff, the driver still refused to move the train, causing an eventual 15 minute delay and backlog in the Thameslink core.

I was so impressed by the logic and rationale of the platform staff, I tapped him on the shoulder and congratulated him on using his common sense, unlike the driver.

Three Bridges ROC and GTR Control must have had a field day with that driver for shutting down the Thameslink Core for quarter of an hour in peak hour. I'd love to read his 'Please Explain' letter...

I'd just like to take a second opportunity to say Well Done to Farringdon platform staff.

Easy to pass comment when it’s not you looking at the fall out of a trap and drag, or a platform / train interface incident.

Maybe the station operator should employ more staff to crowd manage the platforms ?

After all we’re told safety is the number one priority above all else - those of us who actually face the prison sentence as a result of “safety at all costs, until starts costing money” feel very differently.

Yes, the platform staff made several attempts to walk the unit and make PA announcements but to no avail.

I was almost prepared to suggest to the driver to switch to manual mode and drive out at 1-2mph for the sake of getting moving, rather than take off like a bat out of hell with ATO...

Oh yes I’m sure the driver would have taken your suggestion and did exactly that lol

The PX for that would be much more interesting !!!

 

[Horizon22]

I also echo the comments above, the platform staff would have been better off making announcements and resolving the problem, rather than arguing with the driver. Otherwise what is the point of them being there?!

Sounds like they had already tried to do that though to no avail (according to the OP)

 

[Signal_Box]

Absolutely this. If I were the driver and control or the signaller decided to try and hassle me over what I considered to be an unsafe situation (as the OP appears to hope) I'd be tempted to say I'm not fit to move the train any further.

Control will apply pressure especially to new drivers (been there) the signaller won’t give two toots, we’re on the end of pressure from upstairs as well and know to well that a prison sentence would be heading our way NOT control.

 

[class717]

Is ATO now in everyday use on the Thameslink core? I recall there being a period in which the hardware was ready but drivers weren't trained to use it.

Yes, training started in 2018, all new drivers must sign it. If a driver is trained on ETCS they have to use it over AWS/TPWS, but there is no requirement to use ATO if trained in ETCS, although most do. It’s probably about 50/50 AWS/TPWS and ETCS at the moment if I had to take a guess.

From what I've seen, the PCB remains in OFF position and the driver pushes a single ATO START button. I've often wondered if the DSD has to be held down in ATO too.

Strange that it's a single ATO START button because the Underground demand two pressed together to make it a positive action. See the two green buttons.

https://fft-keymodernrailways.b-cdn.net/sites/modernrailways/files/styles/article_body/public/imported/2020-03-24/img_95-1_8.jpg

This is correct, driver presses door closed, once interlock is gained ATO start flashes and once pressed it will move to the next station. PBC must start in and remain in the off position for ATO to work.

 

[ChristopherJ]

I was told if you knock the PCB out of OFF by mistake then ATO reverts back to manual mode?

That must be annoying if you accidentally knock it with your elbow!

 

[class717]

I was told if you knock the PCB out of OFF by mistake then ATO reverts back to manual mode?

That must be annoying if you accidentally knock it with your elbow!

Yes ATO would disengage as soon as it was moved out of off. You’d then be in manual ETCS level 2. If you knocked it it would probably be in to the brake position, if you knock it into traction ATO cuts off and the driver must move back to off to then take traction again

 

[GalaxyDog]

Former guard here....
Drivey was in the right. If platform people were right up against the train that had already closed its doors and was anticipating to depart, then he has every right to hold his ground and do nothing until the PTI corridor was clear. Even years ago, Merseyrail and the Zee case was hammered, drilled into us. Better to be late and everyone safe, than try and be smart and end up with injuries - or worse.

 

[357]

Sounds like the OP has an issue with drivers. Wouldn't surprise me if the OP is one of the platform staff to be honest, judging by the post and/or has failed driver assessments.

OP can't see the entire length of the train and doesn't know what is happening elsewhere on a very curved and very long platform.

Platform staff allegedly decided to argue instead of assist. Thinking that the timetable is more important than safety is a sure way to fail the driver assessments you ever take them.

I've been platform staff and I've been a DOO driver and I've never had someone question me delaying a train for this reason and I've never had an argument about it.

 

[MCR247]

Sometimes incidents like this are needed to bring about a change in practices. Unfortunate for people disrupted by it but sometimes managers only listen to concerns when it starts causing them problems themselves

 

[jdp30]

It really doesn't help that the platforms are so narrow in parts of the station and one wonders why this hasn't happened before.

This does happen fairly often at Farringdon, many happy memories of being on a wedged 700 while the driver shouts at people on the platform via the train's speakers. Never had it last more than a minute though personally.

 

[175001]

This forum never fails to amuse me at times.

Well done TL driver for putting safety first as per the rule book and not some online Rail Forum member who was peeved because a driver was applying the rules that have been set in stone to save lives of crew and passengers.

Oh and don't worry about his PX, that would be going straight into the DTMs bin.

 

[dgl]

I wonder what the length of delay would have been if the driver had moved off when it was unsafe to do so and had an accident, I would assume a lot more than 15mins.
Also explaining a 15min delay that wasn't your fault is a lot easier than trying to explain to a judge why you moved off when it was unsafe to do so!

 

[74A]

Why is the despatch corridor so much wider on national rail than the underground. Its about twice the size

 

[Richardr]

So how was it resolved?
And if the platform was dangerously overcrowded why wasn't entry closed?

Is that easy to do quickly at Farringdon? Passengers will be changing onto the Thameslink platforms from the tube lines next to the Thameslink lines and the Elizabeth Line. Can they be easily closed off? Would it mean those lines not stopping at Farringdon?

 

[357]

Why is the despatch corridor so much wider on national rail than the underground. Its about twice the size

It varies depending on the situation. The mainline has more mirrors and eyeball than LU.

When I was DOO and before that a dispatcher as long as I could see the back of the train I was happy. On a curved platform this means my dispatch corridor is going to have to be wider because of the laws of physics.

 

[AlterEgo]

Absolutely. The ridiculous decision to jail the guard involved in the James St incident has led to inevitable consequences. 100 percent support the driver who no doubt is in no hurry to lose his or her liberty when a passenger falls underneath the train.

In the James Street incident the guard willingly dispatched the train with a passenger actually leaning against it. In fact, she was the only passenger on the platform, he was looking right at her, and still gave the bell to go.

Her name was Georgia Varley and she was inexcusably and unlawfully killed by a member of rail staff who did not care about her welfare. This has nothing in common with a crush loaded and very busy dispatch corridor where the driver can be unsure about whether anyone is in contact with or at an unsafe distance from their train.

The reason the driver didn’t move the train in this instance is because it’s their responsibility and they were unsure if it was safe. If they do pull away then they are at risk of putting someone in danger.

Every so often someone will use this poor girl’s manslaughter to make some empty point on this forum and it’s grim and pathetic.

 

[johncrossley]

Did they evacuate the station? The resolution method hasn't been mentioned.

 

[GN Boy]

Why would you congratulate the Platform staff ? They had zero impact on the outcome, contributed to the delay, and acted unprofessionally in the public view.

As to the 'Please explain' I bet bugger all was done. The Driver was well within their right and acted in accordance with their primary responsibility.

For clarity, could you post the Driver's side of the conversation please.

Perfectly put! I drive through the Core regularly and have previously sat there, doors closed and refused to move due to no clear line of sight between the train and passengers.

There is NO WAY I would move - I’d rather have a delay report over a possible serious incident.

I just do not understand why the OP is so frustrated and clueless by this situation?

 

[43066]

Sounds like they had already tried to do that though to no avail (according to the OP)

The only possible solution, other than for the driver to do something they consider unsafe, is for the people standing too close to the train to move. Really access to the platform should be restricted if it’s that crowded (admittedly difficult at Farringdon). Highly unusual that the station staff would start arguing with a driver in the manner described. Something I’ve certainly never encountered, nor heard of.

Sounds like the OP has an issue with drivers. Wouldn't surprise me if the OP is one of the platform staff to be honest, judging by the post and/or has failed driver assessments.

OP can't see the entire length of the train and doesn't know what is happening elsewhere on a very curved and very long platform.

Platform staff allegedly decided to argue instead of assist. Thinking that the timetable is more important than safety is a sure way to fail the driver assessments you ever take them.

I've been platform staff and I've been a DOO driver and I've never had someone question me delaying a train for this reason and I've never had an argument about it.

I agree, I get a similar vibe. It’s a very odd scenario that has been described.

The reason the driver didn’t move the train in this instance is because it’s their responsibility and they were unsure if it was safe. If they do pull away then they are at risk of putting someone in danger.

Fully agreed re. the James St incident, however there have been other incidents much less clear cut; a guard being prosecuted (and acquitted) for closing doors where an elderly woman fell down the platform edge gap springs to mind. Generally the effect of these incidents is to place the responsibility in the front of one’s mind when dispatching. No bad thing from a safety point of view, but does mean delays like this will likely be more common than a few years ago - especially as passengers (and crowded platforms) are back with a vengeance.

On a related note I do think LU are overdue a high profile trap and drag incident given how “relaxed” their dispatch methods tend to be.

 

[RPM]

Nothing to see here. Just a driver doing their job properly. Part of the skill set is not letting yourself be pressured into doing something unsafe just because another member of staff is flapping.

 

[dk1]

Nothing to see here. Just a driver doing their job properly. Part of the skill set is not letting yourself be pressured into doing something unsafe just because another member of staff is flapping.

Totally that. The more they flap and pressure me the cooler I become.

I find totally the opposite from our platform dispatch staff who would be 100% behind me. Stratford is probably the most difficult station to depart but they all do their best to control the crowds.

 

[AlterEgo]

Fully agreed re. the James St incident, however there have been other incidents much less clear cut; a guard being prosecuted (and acquitted) for closing doors where an elderly woman fell down the platform edge gap springs to mind.

The union there secured an excellent expert witness and an acquittal was the only just outcome. I agree that case would raise my hairs a lot more if I was a guard; it was a borderline vexatious prosecution with a low prospect of a conviction. The guard there did nothing wrong and was entirely conscientious.

 

[TFN]

As platform staff who does degraded dispatch only, my first response in this situation is to ask the driver what we can do to help. We regularly make PAs but with headphones or people not getting the message it’s difficult, but we never get the blame for delays.

My stretch is DOO, but if the driver can’t see the corridor properly, the driver requests degraded dispatch so we have to do it. This way we’re incentivised to manage our platform crowds before these incidents happen.

 

[gka472l]

100% driver in the right......this is why people get told to stay behind the yellow line at stations. I'm reminded of a fairly recent thread where someone was having a whinge about platform staff shouting at people to stay behind the line, well, this is exactly why it's done. PS, I'm platform staff at a large station.....

 

[FOH]

You learn something every day. I always thought the yellow lines were to keep passengers away from platform edges on high speed lines because of suction risk and they had made their way onto slower speed lines over time to persuade people to keep a bit back. I didn't realise they are a formal line to do with dispatch procedures.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

100% driver in the right.....

So, having established that, how should matters be (have been) better managed at Farringdon? Or are we saying that the design of the curving Thameslink station platform at Farringdon isn't really fit for purpose during the busiest times?

Also, was the train in question at Farringdon on Thursday the already late running 1724 to Brighton?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The Northern Line pre-COVID and now one again post covid, had some terrible overcrowding to the point that I’ve been right at the yellow line when a train whizzes out and the next one comes in. Solid crowds from one end of the platform to the other three-four rows deep.