Thameslink driver refuses to move train 16/11

[Horizon22]

Is there a gate limit at Faringdon to control overcrowding? If too many passengers are on the platforms, the gate barriers being closed to down to prevent entry to the statioon until sufficient passengers have departed

I imagine this will be an assessment made by the local station control room (managed by London Underground). However there is general guidance out there on what is seen to be "heavy" crowding which is normally when you can only see heads on a CCTV camera and no space between people.

A key difference is that at most underground stations people board the next train that comes, whereas in the Thameslink core there will be people standing for their train and not moving for the one or two trains that don't go to their destination.

At a station like St Pancras is isn't really an issue as the platforms are big, but parts of Farringdon are a lot more problematic.

There are of course a fair few tube stations with different train services that will have a similar issue and presumably the same risks.

This will definitely be an issue, especially as people can line up the door locations after the next service has arrived. The same thing happens on the Elizabeth Line, only the platforms are evidently much wider.

 

[Travelmonkey]

There is a female platform staff member at Gatwick who shouts over the P.A. for people to stand behind the yellow "lion"

You mean you don't see him his pointy teeth are enough to keep me behind it,

Prehaps that's what Farringdon needs a platform lion to Roar at the commuters,

 

[enginedin]

There is a female platform staff member at Gatwick who shouts over the P.A. for people to stand behind the yellow "lion" - good job the station hardly sees any foreign passengers...

is the fact it's a "female" staff member really relevant to the anecdote? if it was a male one, would you have said as much?

 

[Master29]

Imagine there had been an incident then of course social media would have been jammed with know it all's slating whoever possibly wrecking the career of a driver and a potential death too. Everyone's an expert on social media.

 

[skyhigh]

Manslaughter was not on the cards as all doors were closed

Really?

If the driver could not clearly see that nobody was leaning on the train etc, and still decided to move it, I could see the CPS pursuing manslaughter. The doors are irrelevant.

 

[43066]

Manslaughter was not on the cards as all doors were closed, according to previous posts.

It wasn’t necessarily off the cards, because interlock cannot be taken to mean that nobody is trapped in the doors about to be dragged to their death, hence the driver still needed a clear view along the side of the train to dispatch safely.

there is still nothing to stop someone running up and trying to force the doors open, so having a clear sight (of already-closed doors) doesn't guarantee safety.

If they do that before the train moves, the driver would likely see them and stop. If they do so after the wheels have started turning whatever might happen next is nobody’s fault but their own.

 

[bahnause]

The rulebook may have been applied properly but this incident could well be picked up by other drivers and the behaviour be used more and more often, this degrading the service further. Had the doors NOT already been closed, of course, it would be a completely different matter and the driver would have no choice but to wait.

The train driver did not build the station, nor did he build the train or wrote the rulebook. As long as a clear "decision lies with the commander" does not expressly permit the circumvention of rules in the interests of safety, as is the case in aviation, the solution cannot come from the driver. It is up to the station operators together with the train operator to find a solution, certainly not the staff at the end of the food chain. They are paid to their job.

 

[BrianW]

The train driver did not build the station, nor did he build the train or wrote the rulebook. As long as a clear "decision lies with the commander" does not expressly permit the circumvention of rules in the interests of safety, as is the case in aviation, the solution cannot come from the driver. It is up to the station operators together with the train operator to find a solution, certainly not the staff at the end of the food chain. They are paid to their job.

Sorry if this has been said already- 187 posts to read! If so, I'm reinforcing ...

Farringdon station has particularly 'constraining' factors. IIRC, Platform 3 is part of an 'island' platform where this is the face taking southbound Thameslink trains, like this one bound for Brighton. Platform 2 (the other 'half' of the island) takes westbound 'tube' services (Met, H&C, Circle) and is at a somewhat different level- separated by a retaining wall and joined by a number of small staircases. Services on both platforms are frequent and to a range of destinations. There are large numbers of passengers on the platform waiting for the next train, or the one after, or the one after that. With trains arriving, it is also difficult to stop people coming onto Platform 3. Passengers are indeed encouraged, eg when purchasing tickets online, to change (straightforwardly) at Farringdon, rather than for instance at StPancras.

This incident was and is entirely foreseeable, and contributors to this Forum seem to confirm happens often.

FWIW, my 'take' is that the driver did right (esp in a difficult and dangerous situation) and that platform staff need more training and support from 'management'. A pity about the enhanced delays (9 mins?). Glad no-one was injured.

 

[Falcon1200]

Is there a gate limit at Faringdon to control overcrowding? If too many passengers are on the platforms, the gate barriers being closed to down to prevent entry to the statioon until sufficient passengers have departed

Could this mean having to shut the entire station, due to overcrowding on just one platform, in this case one of those used by Thameslink? And there would still be passengers alighting from other trains, unless these ceased stopping at Farringdon.

The sensible solution, as mentioned above, would seem to be cross-hatching on the platforms, along with polite announcements asking passengers to keep the area clear unless boarding a train.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks all for your input, it is much appreciated and eye-opening. Just to clarify, my post is only marginally related to the thread. The driver is obviously right in this context, and the Platform Staff performed poorly. Were they safety-critical, money is on that they wouldn't even start the dispatch process. I'm not sure why these staff care about the timetable or delays more than safety.

I am surprised that nobody else seems to have picked up on this point. Ever since the explicit concept of "safety critical" roles/tasks/staff came along I had always assumed that train despatch was a safety critical activity for all 'involved'. I hadn't realised that the platform staff at places like Farringdon have no formal role in despatch - i.e. that it is wholly down to the driver.

 

[43066]

I am surprised that nobody else seems to have picked up on this point. Ever since the explicit concept of "safety critical" roles/tasks/staff came along I had always assumed that train despatch was a safety critical activity for all 'involved'. I hadn't realised that the platform staff at places like Farringdon have no formal role in despatch - i.e. that it is wholly down to the driver.

That has been the case for a long time at Farringdon. Other core locations (Blackfriars and City Thameslink) were CD/RA dispatch up until the 700s were introduced.

 

[Dr Hoo]

That has been the case for a long time at Farringdon. Other core locations (Blackfriars and City Thameslink) were CD/RA dispatch up until the 700s were introduced.

Thank you very much for this. It makes me wonder what the precise role of the 'platform staff' is (apart from any completely incidental activities such as cleaning).

 

[trebor79]

Thank you very much for this. It makes me wonder what the precise role of the 'platform staff' is (apart from any completely incidental activities such as cleaning).

Presumably keeping punters away from the train about to depart.

LU seem to have dodgy practices. Someone said upthread they think they are overdue a trap and drag and I concur. I keep hearing platform staff announcing "stand clear of the doors this train is ready to depart" when it's only just finished disgorging those getting off and the first few are boarding. I get this is part of the "hurry up" schtik but then at times they seem to hurry themselves and raise the bat.
Also amuses me the auto announcements on the JLE telling you to stand back from the platform edge as the train approaches despite teh fact they are fully screened with doors .

 

[43066]

Thank you very much for this. It makes me wonder what the precise role of the 'platform staff' is (apart from any completely incidental activities such as cleaning).

They’re just put there to argue with drivers. Obviously .

On a serious note, the underground-esque core locations are (AIUI) required to be staffed in a similar manner to underground stations proper (hence City Thameslink is still closed on Sundays to save on staffing costs). They’re a visible presence, able to make announcements, conduct regular security checks etc.

Away from the core you can still find platform staff at other busy DOO-only locations, such as St Albans and Lewisham, where they perform a similar role.

schtik but then at times they seem to hurry themselves and raise the bat.

I’ve read on here before that a raised bat on LU doesn’t have the same meaning as on the mainline, and shouldn’t be taken as a positive “it’s safe to dispatch” indication by the T-Op. @bramling will no doubt have chapter and verse.

Lots about LU’s methods of working seem totally alien to the mainline!

 

[Dr Hoo]

(I was deliberately trying to avoid any 'read across' to LUL.)

I appreciate that 'underground' (small 'u') stations have to have two staff on duty for fire safety reasons. Presumably this responsibility is regarded as 'safety critical' (?)

Still trying to get my head round 'competent' and 'safety critical' staff not also being at least 'trained' in despatch issues. I do get that at the end of the day one single person - DOO driver, guard or platform RA operator depending on location - has responsibility for initiating actual departure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably keeping punters away from the train about to depart.

LU seem to have dodgy practices. Someone said upthread they think they are overdue a trap and drag and I concur. I keep hearing platform staff announcing "stand clear of the doors this train is ready to depart" when it's only just finished disgorging those getting off and the first few are boarding. I get this is part of the "hurry up" schtik but then at times they seem to hurry themselves and raise the bat.
Also amuses me the auto announcements on the JLE telling you to stand back from the platform edge as the train approaches despite teh fact they are fully screened with doors .

It is totally normal practice on LU to close doors on people then wait for them to move out of the way. It happens daily.

As for the earlier question of what the passengers expect when obstructing doors or stabbing buttons it's for the doors to reopen, as the other context where there are passenger operated doors is lifts, and pretty much all of them work like that.

 

[ComUtoR]

Still trying to get my head round 'competent' and 'safety critical' staff not also being at least 'trained' in despatch issues.

Welcome to a world where our Platform staff do not have PTS but our Ticket office staff do. Controversial; but it think the Government are right (sorry)..

We do need multi skilled roles or at the minimum. Roles that are multi disciplined that make actual sense.

 

[westcoaster]

Would say it is not Thameslink driver refuses to move train, but driver waits for a clear and safe PTI to depart.

Nothing like a sensational thread title eh....

 

[RGM654]

Apropos the need for better explanation of the yellow lines: on the Metropolitan Line there are frequent annoucements to stay behind the yellow line "at all times". Common sense says you can't do that when boarding a train.

 

[choochoochoo]

Strangely enough today my Facebook feed had a TfL sponsored video in it of a London Overground Driver explaining the safety aspect of the yellow line. Has anybody else seen it ?

 

[Horizon22]

That has been the case for a long time at Farringdon. Other core locations (Blackfriars and City Thameslink) were CD/RA dispatch up until the 700s were introduced.

It could always be reinstated if it was determined there was such a need for it. Would probably need 3 or even 4 dispatchers though for a 12-car given how curved the platform is.

 

[Benjwri]

It could always be reinstated if it was determined there was such a need for it. Would probably need 3 or even 4 dispatchers though for a 12-car given how curved the platform is.

Even with four staff you have to question how much they could do, bar obviously no dispatching the train. I watched an IET have to sit just short of Didcot this weekend for 10 minutes because everyone saw the train approaching and rushed right to the platform edge, however it wasn’t meant to stop, and was being held due to a delayed service from Oxford. No matter how much the platform staff shouted and tried to push them back they got nowhere, and the train had to crawl through in the end.

It didn’t help that some people opposite on my platform crossed the yellow line to see what what going on, and almost got hit by an IET going 100mph+ the other way.

People have lost their respect for how dangerous trains are, and seem to only care about their own personal convenience and making the train they turned up late for.

 

[bramling]

They’re just put there to argue with drivers. Obviously .

On a serious note, the underground-esque core locations are (AIUI) required to be staffed in a similar manner to underground stations proper (hence City Thameslink is still closed on Sundays to save on staffing costs). They’re a visible presence, able to make announcements, conduct regular security checks etc.

Away from the core you can still find platform staff at other busy DOO-only locations, such as St Albans and Lewisham, where they perform a similar role.



I’ve read on here before that a raised bat on LU doesn’t have the same meaning as on the mainline, and shouldn’t be taken as a positive “it’s safe to dispatch” indication by the T-Op. @bramling will no doubt have chapter and verse.

Lots about LU’s methods of working seem totally alien to the mainline!

The bat on LU essentially means that in the opinion of station staff now is a good moment for the driver to close the doors, and allows the platform staff the opportunity to make a co-ordinated PA. The final decision to close the doors rests with the driver, and it is he who remains fully accountable from a safety point of view.

LU get away with a lot because their in-cab monitors are generally fairly decent, and in particular (unlike mainline) they remain on until the whole length of the train has departed. My understanding is this is only permitted by a combination of the fact that (1) this is how it’s been done since the early 90s, and (2) the risk of the driver being distracted by monitors is mitigated by the presence of forms of train protection. It’s also a factor behind LU being a bit more lenient towards SPADs, as it is known full well that monitors are a distraction risk.

 

[whoosh]

LU seem to have dodgy practices. Someone said upthread they think they are overdue a trap and drag and I concur. I keep hearing platform staff announcing "stand clear of the doors this train is ready to depart" when it's only just finished disgorging those getting off and the first few are boarding. I get this is part of the "hurry up" schtik but then at times they seem to hurry themselves and raise the bat.
Also amuses me the auto announcements on the JLE telling you to stand back from the platform edge as the train approaches despite teh fact they are fully screened with doors .

I’ve read on here before that a raised bat on LU doesn’t have the same meaning as on the mainline, and shouldn’t be taken as a positive “it’s safe to dispatch” indication by the T-Op. @bramling will no doubt have chapter and verse.

Lots about LU’s methods of working seem totally alien to the mainline!

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that London Underground station staff raise their bat when they have finished making their, "stand clear of the doors," announcement.
It's entirely up to the driver when to actually close the doors, so it isn't a 'dispatch bat' as the station staff member does not dispatch.

On the mainline, staff at some locations use a bat to indicate 'close doors' and 'right away', which IS dispatching a train.

This is not the case on the tube, although the last train of the night has to be given a green handlamp I believe, that says all passengers on the station (and interchanging from other lines) are now on the train. It's still up to the tube driver to observe the platform/train interface and decide it's safe to close the doors, and that it's safe to depart.

 

[Geogregor]

LU seem to have dodgy practices. Someone said upthread they think they are overdue a trap and drag and I concur.

Wasn't there incident on Bakerloo Line at Waterloo not long ago?

As for Farringdon, and similarly busy locations, if platforms edge doors can't be installed more platform staff is needed.

I know it goes against the trend of cutting number of railway staff as much as possible (presumably "due to automation") but I don't see another way.

I recently used RED D in Paris. On busy Les Halles station there were dozens of platform staff, basically one per each door. Once the train buzzed door closing those guys stood in front of the doors physically blocking any attempt to board.

That might be a bit of an overkill but two platforms staff members at Farringdon, during the peak, looks like asking for trouble.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

although the last train of the night has to be given a green handlamp I believe, that says all passengers on the station (and interchanging from other lines) are now on the train

Not anymore.

 

[choochoochoo]

Strangely enough today my Facebook feed had a TfL sponsored video in it of a London Overground Driver explaining the safety aspect of the yellow line. Has anybody else seen it ?

It turned up again on my feed today - I swear Facebook is watching me !!

This time I copied the link. It was uploaded only 2 days ago.

https://fb.watch/otBlJjzSXT/

 

[Deepgreen]

is the fact it's a "female" staff member really relevant to the anecdote? if it was a male one, would you have said as much?

Yes.

It is totally normal practice on LU to close doors on people then wait for them to move out of the way. It happens daily.

As for the earlier question of what the passengers expect when obstructing doors or stabbing buttons it's for the doors to reopen, as the other context where there are passenger operated doors is lifts, and pretty much all of them work like that.

Yes, and without PEDs everywhere it would be impossible to run the system without doing so.

 

[Horizon22]

Wasn't there incident on Bakerloo Line at Waterloo not long ago?

There was - https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-05-slash-2021-fatal-accident-at-waterloo-underground-station.

One factor was it was the pandemic and there was nobody else around on the platform. Also the individual was not trying to board but alighted and then fell between the gap, something the operator could not easily see. The curved platform PTI risk had not been adequately accounted for at Waterloo either.

As for Farringdon, and similarly busy locations, if platforms edge doors can't be installed more platform staff is needed.

I know it goes against the trend of cutting number of railway staff as much as possible (presumably "due to automation") but I don't see another way.

I recently used RED D in Paris. On busy Les Halles station there were dozens of platform staff, basically one per each door. Once the train buzzed door closing those guys stood in front of the doors physically blocking any attempt to board.

That might be a bit of an overkill but two platforms staff members at Farringdon, during the peak, looks like asking for trouble.

It might just need to be reassessed the platform staffing level as Farringdon is now predicted to be one of the interchange stations in London with Thameslink/Elizabeth. The remodelling they did a few years back added a few more entranceways and bridges but it still feels woefully smaller but the station footprint is obviously pretty limited now. I'll be honest Southbound I've only ever seen 1 person with a roving mic, so maybe someone went over to assist once it became clear there was an issue.

 

[Deepgreen]

Would say it is not Thameslink driver refuses to move train, but driver waits for a clear and safe PTI to depart.

Nothing like a sensational thread title eh....

However, he DID refuse to move the train, whether rightly or wrongly, so it's accurate.