Thameslink extension to Leicester

[BostonGeorge]

Hello folks,

Just having a discussion with my family about the rail network and I’m almost certain people here will know more about this than me. I commute into London from Peterborough on Thameslink services. I pay 4.5k for my season ticket. I have family in Leicester and would very much like to move closer to them, but because the commuter options are so much better on the East Coast line, if I did move to Leicester I would be adding on an additional 6k to my season ticket - horribly unaffordable! So my question is a follows - Leicester and Peterborough are fairly equidistant to London, so what is the likelihood of Leicester being absorbed into the Thameslink commuter zone in the non too distant future and what logistical issues would affect such an extension from happening? Cheers!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Hello folks,

Just having a discussion with my family about the rail network and I’m almost certain people here will know more about this than me. I commute into London from Peterborough on Thameslink services. I pay 4.5k for my season ticket. I have family in Leicester and would very much like to move closer to them, but because the commuter options are so much better on the East Coast line, if I did move to Leicester I would be adding on an additional 6k to my season ticket - horribly unaffordable! So my question is a follows - Leicester and Peterborough are fairly equidistant to London, so what is the likelihood of Leicester being absorbed into the Thameslink commuter zone in the non too distant future and what logistical issues would affect such an extension from happening? Cheers!

Definitely won’t have 700s up there, but you will get a better quality service. Fact is if you move there it’s up to you.

Someone will find the old BR 317s to Leicester maps and documents no doubt.

 

[JonathanH]

Leicester and Peterborough are fairly equidistant to London

Not in distance terms. Leicester is 99 miles from London, Peterborough around three quarters of that.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If the MML gets electrified that may help the speed bit too for you.

 

[hwl]

...what is the likelihood of Leicester being absorbed into the Thameslink commuter zone in the non too distant future and what logistical issues would affect such an extension from happening? Cheers!

Zero

Not electrified
Not enough TL trains
TL trains were already pretty full on the MML pre Covid.

EMR or successors and DfT will need all fare the cash they can get.

Not in distance terms. Leicester is 99 miles from London, Peterborough around three quarters of that.

Exactly Peterbrough is just 76miles.

 

[whoosh]

Yes, I'm afraid that it might look as far up the country as Peterborough, but Leicester is actually about 33% further from London.
What about the Kettering or Corby area to move to? New houses being built, fast class 360 service to London planned. Only 30 minutes by train from Kettering to Leicester instead of nearly an hour from Peterborough? Comparable time from Kettering to London as Peterborough to London.
Don't know what the prices of those houses are though! Worth a look maybe?

 

[BostonGeorge]

Yes, I'm afraid that it might look as far up the country as Peterborough, but Leicester is actually about 33% further from London.
What about the Kettering or Corby area to move to? New houses being built, fast class 360 service to London planned. Only 30 minutes by train from Kettering to Leicester instead of nearly an hour from Peterborough? Comparable time from Kettering to London as Peterborough to London.
Don't know what the prices of those houses are though! Worth a look maybe?

It just depends on how the season ticket prices compare because 4.6k is at the upper end of what I was prepared to spend in the first place. If we’re hovering around the same mark for Kettering/Corby than I would be most definitely interested. Kettering at the moment is 7.4k.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

What about the Kettering or Corby area to move to? New houses being built, fast class 360 service to London planned.

If you're prepared to countenance driving to the station, south Rutland is worth considering. Close to Corby station, an easy drive along the A47 to Leicester to see your family, and a lovely part of the world in general.

 

[swt_passenger]

It just depends on how the season ticket prices compare because 4.6k is at the upper end of what I was prepared to spend in the first place. If we’re hovering around the same mark for Kettering/Corby than I would be most definitely interested. Kettering at the moment is 7.4k.

Where’s your £4500 season between please? NRES season ticket calculator has a 12 month Peterborough to Kings Cross (On TL & GN only) at £6900 for me?

 

[BostonGeorge]

Where’s your £4500 season between please? NRES season ticket calculator has a 12 month Peterborough to Kings Cross (On TL & GN only) at £6900 for me?

Sorry, that was my failure to explain properly! I go from Peterborough to Finsbury Park which is 5.5k or thereabouts, and my employer gives me a rebate of 1k, so I pay 4.5k.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry, that was my failure to explain properly! I go from Peterborough to Finsbury Park which is 5.5k or thereabouts, and my employer gives me a rebate of 1k, so I pay 4.5k.

Ah right, so the other issue is that your costs would naturally increase because you’d have to go in and out of St Pancras. It all adds up doesn’t it...

 

[HST43257]

this seems extremely far fetched for a commuter train but I explored the possibilities of 2tph running all stations from Bedford to Leicester (as part of a Brighton to Leicester express commuter service) and then I realised that this would remove the need for an EMR slow service to Nottingham, though I then realised that this would leave Loughborough, Beeston and Nottingham without a direct service to any stations south of Kettering (under my idea which would have the 2nd EMR Nottingham fast going non stop Kettering to London). For this reason, the TL trains would probably need to go through to Nottingham. With electrification, higher seating capacity and comfier seats, would this be at all possible?

 

[cle]

It's way too far. People balk at Corby's distance, which at least is already wired and makes a little more sense (swallow up a branch and sub-fleet).

 

[Neptune]

Someone will find the old BR 317s to Leicester maps and documents no doubt.

Wasn’t the plan to couple a class 210 to a class 317 and operate through to Leicester using the diesel engine of the 210 beyond Bedford. I’m sure they could electrically couple to each other.

 

[A0wen]

Sorry, that was my failure to explain properly! I go from Peterborough to Finsbury Park which is 5.5k or thereabouts, and my employer gives me a rebate of 1k, so I pay 4.5k.

On that basis even if Thameslink on the MML were extended north of Bedford and season ticket prices were re-aligned to match the GN line for those stations, you'd still be facing a higher price unless you only had a ticket to West Hampstead or Kentish Town as they're Zone 2 - as is Finsbury Park.

 

[D365]

Zero chance that Thameslink will go all the way to Leicester. Even Kettering/Corby is unlikely as it stands. No point in speculating.

 

[RT4038]

Zero chance that Thameslink will go all the way to Leicester. Even Kettering/Corby is unlikely as it stands. No point in speculating.

But Corby getting less unlikely, surely? With the collapse in demand due to Covid and WFH, there is likely to be surplus Thameslink stock and spare capacity within the trains south of Bedford. (Getting off topic, the new EMR electric units could transfer to Birmingham-Manchester for instance?)

 

[JonathanH]

But Corby getting less unlikely, surely? With the collapse in demand due to Covid and WFH, there is likely to be surplus Thameslink stock and spare capacity within the trains south of Bedford. (Getting off topic, the new EMR electric units could transfer to Birmingham-Manchester for instance?)

Not really. As the Thameslink stock is fixed formation, the only way to free up it up is to reduce frequencies or lop off some of the peak extensions (ie Littlehampton / East Grinstead). Where does any desire to run Thameslink units beyond Bedford or link Corby services into stopping trains come from? On the topic of this thread, such a move wouldn't automatically lead to cheaper fares north of Bedford in any case.

There is plenty of other spare electric stock coming spare to run Birmingham to Manchester if needed without using the 360 fleet. As discussed numerous times on this forum it would require a fairly significant timetable rewrite.

 

[RT4038]

Not really. As the Thameslink stock is fixed formation, the only way to free up it up is to reduce frequencies or lop off some of the peak extensions (ie Littlehampton / East Grinstead). Where does any desire to run Thameslink units beyond Bedford or link Corby services into stopping trains come from? On the topic of this thread, such a move wouldn't automatically lead to cheaper fares north of Bedford in any case.

There is plenty of other spare electric stock coming spare to run Birmingham to Manchester if needed without using the 360 fleet. As discussed numerous times on this forum it would require a fairly significant timetable rewrite.

I am assuming / expecting a hefty service cut due to the collapse in demand and the need to reduce costs. This would free up Thameslink trains to operate the extension to Corby and render the EMR trains surplus.

If demand returns to pre-Covid levels on Thameslink then I do not see the extension as likely. However, that is a bit of wishful thinking, which is why I say that Thameslink extension to Corby is less unlikely now.

I am assuming / expecting a major timetable rewrite due to the collapse in demand anyway!

 

[Ianno87]

There is plenty of other spare electric stock coming spare to run Birmingham to Manchester if needed without using the 360 fleet. As discussed numerous times on this forum it would require a fairly significant timetable rewrite.

*If* the current hourly (rather than half-hourly) CrossCountry 'X' pattern were to become a permanent feature, it might lend itself to running an hourly Manchester-Brum EMU in the former Manchester-Bristol path.

 

[JonathanH]

I am assuming / expecting a hefty service cut due to the collapse in demand and the need to reduce costs. This would free up Thameslink trains to operate the extension to Corby and render the EMR trains surplus.

If demand returns to pre-Covid levels on Thameslink then I do not see the extension as likely. However, that is a bit of wishful thinking, which is why I say that Thameslink extension to Corby is less unlikely now.

I am assuming / expecting a major timetable rewrite due to the collapse in demand anyway!

I don't have issue with your idea that there is the potential for major cuts in services and the release of 700s. However, there are other places 700s could be used, for example in South East London, replacing Networkers and where they would be somewhat more appropriate.

The point I disagree with you on is the idea that it is more likely Thameslink services will run to Corby. Firstly, the demand at Corby could potentially be met by spreading EMR's expected 810 fleet more thinly. Secondly, as an operating principle, a number of overlapping services is more usual than simply running everything all stations.

Are you effectively suggesting that Corby services, in the manner proposed by EMR - ie Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton, Luton , would simply be diverted from St Pancras high level through the Thameslink tunnels as there would be spare capacity or are you suggesting that Corby is served as an extension of the existing standard pattern St Albans and all stations to Bedford services? The latter doesn't exactly preserve journey times for longer distance travellers (although maybe you don't think there will be any in the future). I guess one (monetary) positive might be avoiding the stabling and depot facilities for the 360 fleet.

 

[RT4038]

I don't have issue with your idea that there is the potential for major cuts in services and the release of 700s. However, there are other places 700s could be used, for example in South East London, replacing Networkers and where they would be somewhat more appropriate.

The point I disagree with you on is the idea that it is more likely Thameslink services will run to Corby. Firstly, the demand at Corby could potentially be met by spreading EMR's expected 810 fleet more thinly. Secondly, as an operating principle, a number of overlapping services is more usual than simply running everything all stations.

Are you effectively suggesting that Corby services, in the manner proposed by EMR - ie Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton, Luton , would simply be diverted from St Pancras high level through the Thameslink tunnels as there would be spare capacity or are you suggesting that Corby is served as an extension of the existing standard pattern St Albans and all stations to Bedford services? The latter doesn't exactly preserve journey times for longer distance travellers (although maybe you don't think there will be any in the future). I guess one (monetary) positive might be avoiding the stabling and depot facilities for the 360 fleet.

I think it depends on the nature and deepness of the cut. It could be (say) one train per hour exactly as you suggest Corby to St Pancras low level and beyond. It could be two trains per hour merely as an extension of the existing St Albans and all stations to Bedford trains. It could be one of each? The cut could see the existing Thameslink stopping patterns change anyway.
I am sure there would be monetary savings in stabling and depot facilities.

There will be downsides for passengers by a service cut all over the system, with services less 'attractive' - any service cut is going to do that. However, the cloth is likely to need cutting to keep within the means.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Probably more likely of the line being relaid from Rugby and Leciester being absorbed into the WCML post HS2.

 

[JonathanH]

Probably more likely of the line being relaid from Rugby and Leciester being absorbed into the WCML post HS2.

I wouldn't get your hopes up on that.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Is there not scope to run a new Thameslink service Corby <> Kettering <> Bedford <> Flitwick <> Harlington <> Leagrave <> Luton <> Parkway <> London?

It would allow Corby travellers to change at Kettering for faster services to London, as well as stations to the north. It would give Bedfordshire <> Northamptonshire travellers a no-change journey. It would free up seats for Harpenden and St Albans commuters (as those further up the line would be on trains which don't stop there). Run the all-stops trains which go round the Sutton loop always to/from Luton (half of them do already, the other other start/terminate at St Albans) to enable a change Bedfordshire<> Hertfordshire <> Suburban north London, and maybe the existing Bedford <> Brighton (non-stop St Albans <> London except occasionally West Hampstead) could terminate at Luton instead.

Thoughts?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there not scope to run a new Thameslink service Corby <> Kettering <> Bedford <> Flitwick <> Harlington <> Leagrave <> Luton <> Parkway <> London?

It would allow Corby travellers to change at Kettering for faster services to London, as well as stations to the north. It would give Bedfordshire <> Northamptonshire travellers a no-change journey. It would free up seats for Harpenden and St Albans commuters (as those further up the line would be on trains which don't stop there). Run the all-stops trains which go round the Sutton loop always to/from Luton (half of them do already, the other other start/terminate at St Albans) to enable a change Bedfordshire<> Hertfordshire <> Suburban north London, and maybe the existing Bedford <> Brighton (non-stop St Albans <> London except occasionally West Hampstead) could terminate at Luton instead.

Thoughts?

But that’s exactly what is happening, just with EMR services and not calling at Flitwick / Harlington / Bedford.

 

[flitwickbeds]

But that’s exactly what is happening, just with EMR services and not calling at Flitwick / Harlington / Bedford.

Assume you mean Leagrave not Bedford.

I omitted from my proposal that these trains wouldn't terminate at St Pancras but continue through the core to link up to whatever Thameslink/Southern/Southeastern paths are available to the various destinations south of the city.

While Corby, Kettering and Wellingborough are of course in the East Midlands, the new electrics service doesn't sit particularly well in EMR.

 

[Class465pacer]

The Thameslink routes are long enough as is, most being around 2 hours. I don’t think extending them further would be feasible, without terminating in London and/or extra rolling stock

 

[Bald Rick]

Assume you mean Leagrave not Bedford.

I omitted from my proposal that these trains wouldn't terminate at St Pancras but continue through the core to link up to whatever Thameslink/Southern/Southeastern paths are available to the various destinations south of the city.

While Corby, Kettering and Wellingborough are of course in the East Midlands, the new electrics service doesn't sit particularly well in EMR.

Ah, I see. Sorry yes, I meant Leagrave.

Well firstly there isn’t the stock to do it.

And secondly, under normal circumstances, there isn’t space on the trains.

Thirdly, there’s not space on the tracks. 8 fast / 8 slow Thameslink and 6 EMR is the limit. So if the Corbys were to become Thameslink, they’d have to take the place of 2 of the Thameslinks (and they’re full already, remember), or they stay as going into St P.