Thameslink Intension to Prosecute Notice Received - PLS HELP

[Chatz]

I travelled from Farringdon Station to St Pancras station to take the highspeed train to Chatham last month. I had my railway ticket and the Network Railway card with what I purchased my ticket. I was found guilty at St Pancras at 9.39 a.m.cz my ticket was only valid to travel from 10.00 a.m. and I received a letter from Thameslink Railways which had the subject "Notice of Intension to Prosecute"

I understand well now having read a lot and spoken to a lot of them it was my mistake. Briefly thia is what happened.

I started working in London few months ago and I am from Chatham. Where I work is somewhere between Farringdon and St Pancras Station and the Highspeed train leaves St Pancras at 10.20 a.m. and I normally walk there. But on the day it was raining heavily and my ticket said "Off Peak Return" on the Top although it was purchased using my network railway card and thought I could travel from Farringdon to St Pancras during the off peak (Simply ignorant and I did not know about the use off off peak, Super off peak etc.). From Farringdon when I used my card the gate doors did not open. So I went and showed my ticket to the staff who then let me take the train arround 9.25 - 9.30 a.m. and I arrived at St Pancras in time for my train at 10.20 and was caught on the gate by an officer at 9.39 a.m. who gave me a note and said Thameslink will send a penalty via mail and you may pay it.

It is a long story. Genuinely I did not know at the time I did a crime. I sincerely regret multiple times doing it. I ve had many sleepless nights and it is my first ever mistake/penalty and have never committed any crime and here I am being sent an intension to prosecute. I had no intention cz anyway my train leaves at 10.20 a.m. and there was no reason to come early and break a rule at 9.39 a.m. I had my ticket to Chatham (Attached) and also I had my Network Railway card which I showed to the officer. Could you please help. I need to send a reply by post they said. I dont know what to write and I want to settle it without going to the Court's and willing to pay any panalty. I am stressed and dont know what to do. Please help.

 

[jfollows]

Have you received anything in the post about this yet?

If you have, please post it here with appropriate bits blanked out.

If you have not, wait for something before you reply.

On the face of it, if you have a valid ticket which is "off peak" and which is used outside "off peak" hours, then you can only be required to pay an excess fare for the difference, you should not be "prosecuted" in any way.

I received a letter from Thameslink Railways which had the subject "Notice of Intension to Prosecute"

Please post a copy of this letter here so that we can all see the basis on which Thameslink says it intends to prosecute you.

 

[Chatz]

Yes. I received the letter yesterday (Attached). What I did wrong was travelling with a ticket which I took using the Network Railway before 10.00 a.m.

 

[jfollows]

Does this (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf) describe your situation accurately?

9.5 Where you:

• are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
• are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
• break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
  you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

 

[Chatz]

That is exactly what it is and I am afraid of getting a criminal record or going into courts

 

[jfollows]

I suggest you draft a response and put it up here, along the lines that you accept that you used a return portion of an off-peak return ticket, but you did so outside the hours of its validity, and therefore you should pay the difference between the fare that you paid and the valid fare for that particular train, and that prosecution is inappropriate.

Check that the other conditions are satisfied, that's to say that the ticket was otherwise valid on the day of travel and that the railcard you used was current.

That is exactly what it is and I am afraid of getting a criminal record or going into courts

If I am correct, so wait for others to provide input, you are not going to get a criminal record or go to court. Even if I am wrong, we can advise on ways in which you will not get a criminal record or go to court.

Wait for input from others, do not rely on my input alone.

 

[Chatz]

Thank you so much and will wait for others to comment too. I dont intend to challenge anything but I only want to do away with this criminal record or courts. I know I will never ever do this again and if I can I would even quit the job and not take the train cz It was all out of ignorance and now a burden that I cant even sleep and so stressed.

 

[Pushpit]

Well try not to let something like this stress you too much. Stress is a useful thing in some situations, but not to the extent of losing sleep. It would be worth looking online at things like distraction techniques, and if that doesn't work, see your GP. The reality is that even if there was some other factor not mentioned and you were in scope for prosecution, then (a) it's unlikely to get that far if you engage fully with GTR and (b) if you try to ignore everything then this is right at the bottom of criminal league table, not so far off "speeding" at 26 mph in a 20 mph zone. Since such reprobates include the Archbishop of Canterbury, I would not overthink this too much. There is some hassle here for you, and you will know better next time, but it's not a big deal.

 

[alholmes]

Is a ticket from London Terminals to Chatham valid from Farringdon, when travelling via High Speed line? I’d have thought it was only valid from St Pancras, not Farringdon.

 

[Haywain]

Is a ticket from London Terminals to Chatham valid from Farringdon, when travelling via High Speed line? I’d have thought it was only valid from St Pancras, not Farringdon.

Yes, it is due to an exception in the 'rules'.

 

[jeremyjh]

Is a ticket from London Terminals to Chatham valid from Farringdon, when travelling via High Speed line? I’d have thought it was only valid from St Pancras, not Farringdon.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/travelling-in-london/ suggests you should be fine:

Customers with tickets with an origin or destination of London Terminals and routed Plus High Speed are also permitted to travel in either direction on Thameslink services between London St Pancras International and:

• London Blackfriars
• City Thameslink
• Elephant & Castle
• Farringdon
• London Bridge

Think the time restriction is still an issue - more in a newer post be

However, your ticket was not valid to arrive at St Pancras on any TOC before 1002. Restriction 4A is linked to from your ticket and in the notes has the following: (see below)

In addition to the specific restrictions shown, for travel to/from:

...

London St Pancras International on part of the outward or return journey please also refer to Restriction Code 7E & 9J.

The text of restriction 7E contains the restriction on arriving at St Pancras until 1002. (see below)

 

[P Binnersley]

The text of restriction 7E contains the restriction on arriving at St Pancras until 1002.

10:02 is for Outward travel. This is the return portion of the ticket and restriction 7E states:=

Return Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

• London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45;
• London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 08:46 or after 16:36 and before 18:46
• Bedford after 04:29 and before 09:01;
• Luton or Luton Airport Parkway after 04:29 and before 09:01 or after 16:29 and before 18:59;
• London Kings Cross Mondays to Thursdays after 06:44 and before 07:59 or after 15:57 and before 17:46 - or Fridays after 06:44 and before 07:59.

As he was arriving at St Pancras after 08:46 there should not be a problem with this restriction.

 

[Pushpit]

@Chatz - just to ask the obvious question here: this happened on 21 February at St Pancras, returning on a ticket dated 18 February, and back to your home town of Chatham mid morning. Is there any possibility you could have used the ticket on another trip back to Chatham?

 

[jeremyjh]

10:02 is for Outward travel. This is the return portion of the ticket and restriction 7E states:=

As he was arriving at St Pancras after 08:46 there should not be a problem with this restriction.

You're correct about that restriction and I will amend my post. I notice that there is a specific 'unpublished restriction' for arriving at STP before 1004. Someone more knowledgeable than me will have to intervene to tell us if the TOC can use an unpublished restriction intended for a journey planner to prosecute.

In any case, I'm now confused in the same way as others above: I understand there might have been a need to pay the difference but surely not for a prosecution given what's in NRCoT?

 

[elaine66]

I'm confused. When I look up restriction 4A, it's trains timed to depart before 9:30am, not 10am. If @Chatz was stopped leaving the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras at 9:39am, there's a good chance they weren't in breach of this at all. It's only 4 minutes from Farringdon to St Pancras, and looking at the weekday timetable, they would most likely have been on the 9:31am or 9:34am departures. So I'm not really seeing what they've done wrong here.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm confused. When I look up restriction 4A, it's trains timed to depart before 9:30am, not 10am. If @Chatz was stopped leaving the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras at 9:39am, there's a good chance they weren't in breach of this at all. It's only 4 minutes from Farringdon to St Pancras, and looking at the weekday timetable, they would most likely have been on the 9:31am or 9:34am departures. So I'm not really seeing what they've done wrong here.

There’s a 10am restriction on use of the Network Railcard on weekdays. AFAICS the TOCs normally treat that as making the ticket invalid. Some people here suggest the ticket should be excessable back to its normal cost, however the railcard T&Cs say that you can be given a penalty fare if travelling at a time when reduced fares do not apply. Section 4.7 and specifically 4.7.3 refer.

 

[Chatz]

I am a bit confused now. All what I thought knew was I couldnt take the train before 10.00 a.m.cz the ticket was with the Network Railway Card.

I have not used my return ticket any day before and please find the receipt of my purchase.

@Chatz - just to ask the obvious question here: this happened on 21 February at St Pancras, returning on a ticket dated 18 February, and back to your home town of Chatham mid morning. Is there any possibility you could have used the ticket on another trip back to Chatham?

No. I didnt use that until the 21st which is my return after 4 days at work.

10:02 is for Outward travel. This is the return portion of the ticket and restriction 7E states:=

As he was arriving at St Pancras after 08:46 there should not be a problem with this restriction.

This is what I thought when I entered Farringdon station to leave for St Pancras. The Thameslink officer at the Farringdon station could have stopped me then and there cz he saw the ticket before he passed me through. Anyway now I have to write to them and explain myself.

 

[L401CJF]

There’s a 10am restriction on use of the Network Railcard on weekdays. AFAICS the TOCs normally treat that as making the ticket invalid. Some people here suggest the ticket should be excessable back to its normal cost, however the railcard T&Cs say that you can be given a penalty fare if travelling at a time when reduced fares do not apply. Section 4.7 and specifically 4.7.3 refer.

I am a bit confused now. All what I thought knew was I couldnt take the train before 10.00 a.m.cz the ticket was with the Network Railway Card.

As @swt_passenger says. The Network Railcard website FAQs page states -

"You can buy Network Railcard discounted tickets for travel any time on weekends and public holidays or from 10:00am Monday to Friday. You may be able to start your journey a little earlier than 10:00am, see the time restriction easements section for details or check at your local station. The 10:00am Monday to Friday time restriction applies to all types of tickets. "

From what I can see, there are no relevant easements to this journey, so it is as you say because the railcard was used before 10am.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I think we have distilled the problem now. The OP usually walks to St. Pancras to catch the 10.20 HS1 service to Chatham. That day it was raining so he went to Farringdon to travel on Thameslink to St. Pancras. He started his journey on the railway system about 9.30am. But because his ticket had a Network Railcard discount it was not valid for travel before 10am.
On arrival at St. Pancras he has been stopped, and now reported for the error. The ticket wasn't valid because of the condition of the Network Railcard. I hope he was able to continue and use it on the 10.20 service to Chatham.
He should respond to Govia Thameslink Railway.
- apologising for the inadvertant error in travelling before 10am
- confirming that he now understands the time restriction of the Network Railcard
- offering to pay them for the fare avoided between Farringdon and St. Pancras and their administration costs for dealing with the matter.

 

[Chatz]

I think we have distilled the problem now. The OP usually walks to St. Pancras to catch the 10.20 HS1 service to Chatham. That day it was raining so he went to Farringdon to travel on Thameslink to St. Pancras. He started his journey on the railway system about 9.30am. But because his ticket had a Network Railcard discount it was not valid for travel before 10am.
On arrival at St. Pancras he has been stopped, and now reported for the error. The ticket wasn't valid because of the condition of the Network Railcard. I hope he was able to continue and use it on the 10.20 service to Chatham.
He should respond to Govia Thameslink Railway.
- apologising for the inadvertant error in travelling before 10am
- confirming that he now understands the time restriction of the Network Railcard
- offering to pay them for the fare avoided between Farringdon and St. Pancras and their administration costs for dealing with the matter.

Dear Team,

Thank you so much and it is clear and I understand that I have to write to the Govia Thameslink Railway for the mistake I did which was never intentional genuinely, with correct focus to the 03 points shared.
Will it be alright if I write my message here and if you team can assist me in getting out of this Intended prosecution with a penalty and outside the courts which will not allow a criminal record against me please.

Could you please assist me to check if the following letter is alright to share with the GTR.
==============================================================

Reference: GTR​

Dear Fare Evasions Manager,

Herewith I, ……………sincerely writing to apologize Govia Thameslink Railway for the inadvertent error I committed travelling before 10.00 a.m. from Farringdon to St Pancras Station in order to catch my High-Speed Train which was scheduled at 10.20 a.m. as It was purchased using my Network Railcard and the return journey I used on the 21st of February 2024.

Allow me to explain the circumstances. I recently started a job in London and am relatively new to regular train travel. I only commute a few days each month, typically walking to St Pancras to catch the Southeastern high-speed train to Chatham, departing at 10:20 a.m. (Ramsgate). However, on the 21st of February, heavy rain prevented me from walking, prompting me to take the train from Farringdon. My ticket indicated an "Off-Peak Return," and while I have previously purchased tickets labeled "Super Off-Peak return too," I mistakenly assumed this ticket would be valid for my journey. When my ticket failed to open the gate, I presented it to the officer on duty, who allowed me entry using his card. Consequently, I commenced my journey at approximately 9:30 a.m. from Farringdon, only to be stopped at 9:39 a.m. at St Pancras International for not having a valid ticket, resulting in the current situation.

I want to emphasize that this was a genuine error, not a deliberate attempt to evade fare. I have always conducted myself in accordance with the law, and this incident is entirely out of character for me. The stress and sleepless nights I have experienced since then only compound my sincere regret for the mistake. I now fully understand the time restrictions associated with the Network Railcard and have learned from this experience.

I am reaching out to request your assistance in resolving this matter amicably, without resorting to legal action. I am willing to settle the fare avoided between Farringdon and St Pancras, as well as any administrative costs incurred in addressing this issue. I hope for your understanding and cooperation in this matter.

Please accept my heartfelt apology once again, and I assure you that I will remain vigilant to ensure such incidents do not recur in the future.

Thank you for your attention to this matter, and I eagerly await your favorable response.

 

[Chatz]

Dear Team,

Thank you so much and it is clear and I understand that I have to write to the Govia Thameslink Railway for the mistake I did which was never intentional genuinely, with correct focus to the 03 points shared.
Will it be alright if I write my message here and if you team can assist me in getting out of this Intended prosecution with a penalty and outside the courts which will not allow a criminal record against me please.

Could you please assist me to check if the following letter is alright to share with the GTR.
==============================================================

Reference: GTR​

Dear Fare Evasions Manager,

Herewith I, ……………sincerely writing to apologize Govia Thameslink Railway for the inadvertent error I committed travelling before 10.00 a.m. from Farringdon to St Pancras Station in order to catch my High-Speed Train which was scheduled at 10.20 a.m. as It was purchased using my Network Railcard and the return journey I used on the 21st of February 2024.

Allow me to explain the circumstances. I recently started a job in London and am relatively new to regular train travel. I only commute a few days each month, typically walking to St Pancras to catch the Southeastern high-speed train to Chatham, departing at 10:20 a.m. (Ramsgate). However, on the 21st of February, heavy rain prevented me from walking, prompting me to take the train from Farringdon. My ticket indicated an "Off-Peak Return," and while I have previously purchased tickets labeled "Super Off-Peak return too," I mistakenly assumed this ticket would be valid for my journey. When my ticket failed to open the gate, I presented it to the officer on duty, who allowed me entry using his card. Consequently, I commenced my journey at approximately 9:30 a.m. from Farringdon, only to be stopped at 9:39 a.m. at St Pancras International for not having a valid ticket, resulting in the current situation.

I want to emphasize that this was a genuine error, not a deliberate attempt to evade fare. I have always conducted myself in accordance with the law, and this incident is entirely out of character for me. The stress and sleepless nights I have experienced since then only compound my sincere regret for the mistake. I now fully understand the time restrictions associated with the Network Railcard and have learned from this experience.

I am reaching out to request your assistance in resolving this matter amicably, without resorting to legal action. I am willing to settle the fare avoided between Farringdon and St Pancras, as well as any administrative costs incurred in addressing this issue. I hope for your understanding and cooperation in this matter.

Please accept my heartfelt apology once again, and I assure you that I will remain vigilant to ensure such incidents do not recur in the future.

Thank you for your attention to this matter, and I eagerly await your favorable response.

 

[FenMan]

Reference: GTR

Dear Fare Evasions Manager,

Herewith I, ……………sincerely writing to apologize Govia Thameslink Railway for the inadvertent error I committed travelling before 10.00 a.m. from Farringdon to St Pancras Station in order to catch my High-Speed Train which was scheduled at 10.20 a.m. as It was purchased using my Network Railcard for the journey I used on the 21st of February 2024.

Allow me to explain the circumstances. I recently started a job in London and am relatively new to regular train travel. I only commute a few days each month, typically walking to St Pancras to catch the Southeastern high-speed train to Chatham, departing at 10:20 a.m. (Ramsgate). However, on the 21st of February, heavy rain prevented me from walking, prompting me to take the train from Farringdon. My ticket indicated an "Off-Peak Return," and while I have previously purchased tickets labeled "Super Off-Peak return too," I mistakenly assumed this ticket would be valid for my journey. When my ticket failed to open the gate, I presented it to the officer on duty, who allowed me entry using his card. Consequently, I commenced my journey at approximately 9:30 a.m. from Farringdon, only to be stopped at 9:39 a.m. at St Pancras International for not having a valid ticket, resulting in the current situation.

I want to emphasize that this was a genuine error, not a deliberate attempt to evade fare. I have always conducted myself in accordance with the law, and this incident is entirely out of character for me. The stress and sleepless nights I have experienced since then only compound my sincere regret for the mistake. I now fully understand the time restrictions associated with the Network Railcard and have learned from this experience.

I am reaching out to request your assistance in resolving this matter amicably, without resorting to legal action. I am willing to settle the fare avoided between Farringdon and St Pancras, as well as any administrative costs incurred in addressing this issue. I hope for your understanding and cooperation in this matter.

Please accept my heartfelt apology once again, and I assure you that I will remain vigilant to ensure such incidents do not recur in the future.

Thank you for your attention to this matter, and I eagerly await your favorable response.

Goodness, AI* has plenty to answer for! How about saying what you want to say, in your own words? In English, as spoken in England?

*A lot of AI tech originates in India. In my long and direct business experience, English-speaking Indians talk in a version of English that sounds archaic to my ears (I blame it on their language schools). But, it seems AI is now exacting its revenge on native English speakers in the UK. Bearing in mind our colonial adventures in the Sub Continent during the days of Empire, some may say revenge is best served cold!

 

[Chatz]

Goodness, AI* has plenty to answer for! How about saying what you want to say, in your own words? In English, as spoken in England?

*A lot of AI tech originates in India. In my long and direct business experience, English-speaking Indians talk in a version of English that sounds archaic to my ears (I blame it on their language schools). But, it seems AI is now exacting its revenge on native English speakers in the UK. Bearing in mind our colonial adventures in the Sub Continent during the days of Empire, some may say revenge is best served cold!

Thank you very much for the suggestion, please find below the draft.

===================================

Dear Fare Evasions Manager,

Reference:

Herewith I, ………………….. sincerely would like to apologise from the Govia Thameslink Railway for the unintended error I committed by travelling before 10.00 a.m. having purchased a ticket using my Network Railcard from Farringdon to St Pancras Station.

In brief, I got a job in London few months ago and I am quite new to the regular train travel. I only work few days of the month. Generally, I walk to St Pancras to take my train journey to Chatham using South-eastern highspeed which leaves platform 11 at 10.20 a.m. (Ramsgate). However, on the 21st of February it rained a lot where I could not walk and led me to take the train from Farringdon. My Ticket said “Off Peak Return”, therefore, I tried my ticket on the gate and it did not open, I presented my train ticket to the officer who was on duty, looking at it he let me in using his card where I started my journey approx. 09.30 a.m. from Farringdon and was stopped at 09.39 a.m. at St Pancras International for not having a valid ticket and now reported for the error.

This was a genuine error and was never intended, I have always lived in accordance with the law, and this is my first. I cannot even imagine this happened and have had quite a number of sleepless nights already. I accept that I used a return portion of an off-peak ticket, but I did so outside the validity as I used my Network Railcard to purchase the ticket. I now clearly understand the time restriction of the Network Railcard and the use of it. Looking back on the day of the incident I can only be sorry for myself doing it as it stresses me too much and have finally lost peace of mind.

Having realised the error and being apologetic about it, I would appreciate very much if you could assist me in offering a solution outside courts. I am willing to pay and settle the fare avoided between Farringdon and St Pancras along with the administrative costs involved dealing with the matter.

I am sincerely sorry about the whole mishap once again and I look forward for a favourable reply whilst assuring that this will never again be repeated.

Thank you.

 

[furlong]

I would still quote from post #4 as in line with the first bullet point you should just have been charged the difference at the time and they might accept that argument.

 

[Chatz]

I have been sent a letter "intending to prosecute" and having read the conversation above I am guilty. I was human and sincerely it was a genuine mistake cz I didnt know and even the officer at the station let me in. I do not intend to place any argument cz I believe I have no grounds to it. Although I was not presented to court they have already made me a criminal and made me in jail every minute I think about it. Not to mention I still have to wait more days or weeks to settle this thinking every minute of the consequences after this letter is posted until I get a reply from the Thameslink Railway department.

 

[Hadders]

The letter is too wordy, it needs to be short and concise.

Simply state that you inadvertently travelled with a Network Railcard discounted before 10am and you are sorry for this. Say you won't do this again and offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's costs in dealing with the matter.

 

[Chatz]

The letter is too wordy, it needs to be short and concise.

Simply state that you inadvertently travelled with a Network Railcard discounted before 10am and you are sorry for this. Say you won't do this again and offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's costs in dealing with the matter.

Thank you. Will change it accordingly.

 

[AlterEgo]

- offering to pay them for the fare avoided between Farringdon and St. Pancras and their administration costs for dealing with the matter.

Why only between Farringdon and St Pancras? This is a single journey, to Chatham. That the OP changed trains doesn't discharge them of their liability to pay their full fare for their journey, which was to Chatham.

 

[Chatz]

Why only between Farringdon and St Pancras? This is a single journey, to Chatham. That the OP changed trains doesn't discharge them of their liability to pay their full fare for their journey, which was to Chatham.

@AlterEgo I am so sorry. I did not make a my journey to chatham before 10.00 a.m. and I only have a train at 10.20 a.m. to which I travelled to St Pancras.

Anyway, I only wish to settle this but please let me know how I should word this then.

 

[AlterEgo]

@AlterEgo I am so sorry. I did not make a my journey to chatham before 10.00 a.m. and I only have a train at 10.20 a.m. to which I travelled to St Pancras.

Anyway, I only wish to settle this but please let me know how I should word this then.

This is an important point. That you changed trains is not relevant. You travelled from Farringdon to Chatham and you evaded the correct fare for that journey. That it turned 10am, or you changed trains en route isn't relevant. You made one journey, from Farringdon to Chatham.

You should ask to pay the difference in fares, but you should not intimate that you only owe them money for the short leg from Farringdon to St Pancras.