Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Edvid]

There are plans to transfer more than 20 dual-voltage 377s to FCC this December or thereabouts (according to their directors on this archived webchat from January 31).

Now that the Thameslink Programme is in motion the closure of the Moorgate branch and the Blackfriars bay platforms will mean that FCC and Southeastern will have to merge their affected services. Seeing as the FCC fleet of 319s is stretched as it is (and these changes will stretch it even more!) the DV 377s are needed to (and will) supplement the 319s, not replace them.

The reason why FCC need DV 377s is because DV Electrostars are the only type of passenger train (besides 319s) that are gauge cleared for the core route, and the DV 375s that Southeastern have do not have the DOO equipment that is also required for the route.

If this DfT document is anything to go by, Southeastern will probably send some 465s to Southern who could then convert some of their DC 377s to DV 377s and continue to run a service between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction once some of their DV 377s go to FCC (see paragraph 11).

Oh, and the 319s that were 'released' by the new batch of 377s (also DV) are still moving to FCC as planned.
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It's true. Should be one set going to FCC for driver training in July with other sets following for the Dec 2008 timetable change. They will be complementing the 319s and not replacing them. Just not sure on the numbers.

According to FCC 12 of their DV 377s will be new-build (aka Class 377/5, 501-512). Don't know specifically about the rest though.

 

[Julian G]

If this DfT document is anything to go by, Southeastern will probably send some 465s to Southern who could then convert some of their DC 377s to DV 377s and continue to run a service between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction once some of their DV 377s go to FCC (see paragraph 11).

Damn DfT, i don't understand why the d(a)ft wants to terminate the Watford services at Clapham, it makes no sense, In this website it clearly shows that there is more and more demand for the direct route between Watford and south of Clapham Junction to be kept

 

[class 313]

There are a lot of similarities between 319's and 455's.

319s Don't have:-
* Front end corridor connectors
* EE motors
* Slammer compressors
* Auto announcers (Sorry thefab442)
* Destination screens

319s Do have:-
* Toilets
* GEC motors
* Flat ends
* (319/4s) 2+2 seating
* Pantographs

The both have:-

* The same body shell

 

[class 313]

There are plans to transfer more than 20 dual-voltage 377s to FCC this December or thereabouts (according to their directors on this archived webchat from January 31).

Now that the Thameslink Programme is in motion the closure of the Moorgate branch and the Blackfriars bay platforms will mean that FCC and Southeastern will have to merge their affected services. Seeing as the FCC fleet of 319s is stretched as it is (and these changes will stretch it even more!) the DV 377s are needed to (and will) supplement the 319s, not replace them.

The reason why FCC need DV 377s is because DV Electrostars are the only type of passenger train (besides 319s) that are gauge cleared for the core route, and the DV 375s that Southeastern have do not have the DOO equipment that is also required for the route.

If this DfT document is anything to go by, Southeastern will probably send some 465s to Southern who could then convert some of their DC 377s to DV 377s and continue to run a service between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction once some of their DV 377s go to FCC (see paragraph 11).

Oh, and the 319s that were 'released' by the new batch of 377s (also DV) are still moving to FCC as planned.
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According to FCC 12 of their DV 377s will be new-build (aka Class 377/5, 501-512). Don't know specifically about the rest though.

Thanks for clearing that up Edvid. Don't forget that by 2015 FCC plan to run such services at Cambridge - Brighton via St Pancras Inter.

But, isn't the Sevenoaks run going to start this summer?

 

[Edvid]

You're welcome. Yes I am fully aware of the expansion of the Thameslink network come December 2015 and I was only referring to the implementation of Key Output 0 capacity from December 2008 (followed by KO1 3 years later and KO2 another 4 years later).

The Blackfriars - Sevenoaks service will be extended northwards at least as far as Kentish Town in December 2008 and not in the summer because the services to Moorgate will not be discontinued until December 2008. In any case most major timetable recasts happen in December rather than May.

 

[class 313]

You're welcome. Yes I am fully aware of the expansion of the Thameslink network come December 2015 and I was only referring to the implementation of Key Output 0 capacity from December 2008 (followed by KO1 3 years later and KO2 another 4 years later).

The Blackfriars - Sevenoaks service will be extended northwards at least as far as Kentish Town in December 2008 and not in the summer because the services to Moorgate will not be discontinued until December 2008. In any case most major timetable recasts happen in December rather than May.

Thanks for clearing that up further more :-P, Some good years ahead for the Thameslink line

 

[Edvid]

No doubt the next 8 years will be interesting for Thameslink passengers - both in terms of the additional capacity coming on stream and the work required to get that capacity (plus the inevitable disruption!).

Earlier today I travelled from London Euston to Watford Junction (and back), and I changed trains at Harrow & Wealdstone. Obviously there are direct trains in both directions but I wanted to find out what travelling on a 377 was like (specifically on a 25kV AC line) before they move our way in 10 months. I have to say that although they (ac/de)celerate quicker than 319s, ride smoother and usually have more legroom the seats are no softer regardless of whether the layout is 2+3 or 2+2.

Speaking of seat layout, are there any trains besides 319/4s that boast 2+3, 2+2 and 2+1 in the same vehicle?

 

[Julian G]

319s Don't have:-
* Auto announcers (Sorry thefab442)
* Destination screens
*508 Trailers (and a trailer from a Class 210)

319s Do have:-
* Toilets
* GEC motors
* Flat ends
* (319/4s) 2+2 seating
* Pantographs
*buzzing noises 8)

I thought 319/2s also had 2+2 seating :???: +Jacuzzi seats

Weren't they called Slammers?

What are they?

Yes SWT have ordered more 450s been told some will be high density and others will be an express version of the 450s, regarding the newly refurbished ones seen 548,554 and 555 but one apparently escaped the windsor line last week to Basingstoke already lol.

a couple of weeks ago i saw a 4 car 450 actually heading to Poole :roll:
SWT just can't get enough of their Desiros

 

[class 313]

I wanted to find out what travelling on a 377 was like (specifically on a 25kV AC line) before they move our way in 10 months. I have to say that although they (ac/de)celerate quicker than 319s, ride smoother and usually have more legroom the seats are no softer regardless of whether the layout is 2+3 or 2+2.

Speaking of seat layout, are there any trains besides 319/4s that boast 2+3, 2+2 and 2+1 in the same vehicle?

No doubt the seats are no better, but, saying that. On the 377/2s (the ones that do the Watford's) have ex-first class seats at either end of the train. A whole coach full. Those seats are not bad at all!

But I think the only other train that can boast such things are 319/2s. Basically, 319s

 

[Edvid]

I thought 319/2s also had 2+2 seating :???: +Jacuzzi seats

They do. However the days of the 'Jacuzzi' seats and the bar are numbered as they are useless in terms of capacity - chances are FCC will replace them with 2+2 seating once they get the 319/2s (fitting-out any other layout would require DDA-compliance works to be carried out at great expense).

Apparently annual SWT patronage has risen from 110 million to 174 million over the last 10 years.

 

[class 313]

They do. However the days of the 'Jacuzzi' seats and the bar are numbered as they are useless in terms of capacity - chances are FCC will replace them with 2+2 seating once they get the 319/2s (fitting-out any other layout would require DDA-compliance works to be carried out at great expense).

319/2s are banned from FCC because of the seating and the bar, would be nice to see Bedford - Brighton's using the /2s calling at:-

- Bedford
- Luton airport Parkway
- St Albans
- St Pancras international
- Farringdon
- Blackfriars
- London Bridge
- Gatwick Airport
- Brighton

Put the bar to good use I say.

 

[Edvid]

What I like most about the 2+2 seat layout on 377/2s is that the bay seats are aligned with the windows and come with tables. Even the bay seats in the 2+3 layout have more legroom than the FCC 319s although they are slightly narrower and lack the basic armrests of the 2+2 layout.

Who knows what layout we'll see on the 377/5s though (or even the reason for creating a new sub-class)? As for the 319/2s I can't see your idea happening simply because of the amount of rolling stock needed during the peak.

 

[class 313]

As for the 319/2s I can't see your idea happening simply because of the amount of rolling stock needed during the peak.

Well we can see that, with the Thameslink idea of metro's and flyer's. But, if all the 319/3s /4s where refurbished to a similar state, and then have the 377s to a similar state... then I don't see why the 319/2s cant be reserved just for the mainline.

 

[paul1609]

319/2s are banned from FCC because of the seating and the bar, would be nice to see Bedford - Brighton's using the /2s calling at:-

- Bedford
- Luton airport Parkway
- St Albans
- St Pancras international
- Farringdon
- Blackfriars
- London Bridge
- Gatwick Airport
- Brighton

Put the bar to good use I say.

Hmm youre not going to stop at East Croydon the 2nd busiest station on the Thameslink Route?

Its often forgotten by those North of the river that all the busy stations on Thameslink are south of St Pancras International. I think the busiest station north of there is St. Albans the 7th busiest Thameslink Station!

 

[RJ]

Hmm youre not going to stop at East Croydon the 2nd busiest station on the Thameslink Route?

I was going just going to say that. If Croydon was missed out the fast service from there into the city would be pretty crap.

 

[class 313]

I was going just going to say that. If Croydon was missed out the fast service from there into the city would be pretty crap.

There's enough Southern services and other FCC services to cover the Special services.

 

[RJ]

There's enough Southern services and other FCC services to cover the Special services.

Without the FCC services, a typical hour will see;

• 1 171 from Uckfield (some are 2 coaches)
• 2 456s or 455s from Tattenham Corner
• 1 377 from Horsham
• 1 375/508 from Tonbridge

When you consider how many people live in Croydon and the surronding areas (enough people to justify building a tram system around it), and how many of them will want to get to and from the city for work, you'll find it makes more sense to stop FCC services there. If they didn't, crowding at London Bridge would become even more of a problem and it'd drive more people to their cars.

There are people who think like you in FCC train planning, namely those who decided that it was a good idea to run 4 car trains on Gay Pride weekend :roll:

 

[class 313]

Without the FCC services, a typical hour will see;

• 1 171 from Uckfield (some are 2 coaches)
• 2 456s or 455s from Tattenham Corner
• 1 377 from Horsham
• 1 375/508 from Tonbridge

When you consider how many people live in Croydon and the surrounding areas (enough people to justify building a tram system around it), and how many of them will want to get to and from the city for work, you'll find it makes more sense to stop FCC services there. If they didn't, crowding at London Bridge would become even more of a problem and it'd drive more people to their cars.

There are people who think like you in FCC train planning, namely those who decided that it was a good idea to run 4 car trains on Gay Pride weekend :roll:

I didn't say FCC shouldn't stop there all together. The flyers would remain, its the faster services that wouldn't stop there. Also, with FCCTL pretty much running 24/7 during the week, when does the stock get a once over? Exactly.

 

[RJ]

I didn't say FCC shouldn't stop there all together. The flyers would remain, its the faster services that wouldn't stop there.

So on top of 9tph (15 if the stoppers come into the equation) each way on the London Bridge - Croydon line off peak, you want additional 'fast services' which don't call at an important interchange making them useless to a large amount of people?

Also, with FCCTL pretty much running 24/7 during the week, when does the stock get a once over? Exactly.

24/7 means 24 hours a day, seven days a week. How can you have "24/7 during the week"?? Anyways, assuming most maintenace takes place overnight;

• FCC only run 24 hour services between Bedford and Three Bridges via London Bridge. The Sutton loop does not get 24 hour service
• Off peak during the day there are 8tph each way between St Albans and Blackfriars. Overnight there is 1tph over this section.
• This means up to 15 units per hour less will be in use overnight compared to the daytime timetable on this section alone

What makes you think there won't be any time for a "once over"? They don't run a full service overnight :roll:

 

[class 313]

So on top of 9tph (15 if the stoppers come into the equation) each way on the London Bridge - Croydon line off peak, you want additional 'fast services' which don't call at an important interchange making them useless to a large amount of people?

If people wanted to go to East Croydon, they could wait for a stopper. Exactly what happens at St Albans if anyone wants to a stop between St Albans and St Pancras. I think you have misunderstood my point. I wasn't talking about totally replacing the other FCC services. This is just a select number of tph that are faster, and much better for the people who want to travel in a little more class.

24/7 means 24 hours a day, seven days a week. How can you have "24/7 during the week"?? Anyways, assuming most maintenace takes place overnight;

• FCC only run 24 hour services between Bedford and Three Bridges via London Bridge. The Sutton loop does not get 24 hour service
• Off peak during the day there are 8tph each way between St Albans and Blackfriars. Overnight there is 1tph over this section.
• This means up to 15 units per hour less will be in use overnight compared to the daytime timetable on this section alone

What makes you think there won't be any time for a "once over"? They don't run a full service overnight :roll:

15 out of the 60+... that's not that much now is it. Also that 15 wont all be done in one night, well I guess it depends on what needs doing to the units.

 

[thefab444]

There are people who think like you in FCC train planning, namely those who decided that it was a good idea to run 4 car trains on Gay Pride weekend :roll:

Surely that was a "pleasureable" experience for those involved? *shudders*

 

[David Sinnett]

Last time I was at Croydon it was as busy as !*$£! even without the FCC. What about the services from Brighton, Eastbourne, Portsmouth???

When I was commuting Redhill to London Bridge I wished they didn't stop at Croydon as you have so many just doing Croydon to London. Now I'm commuting from Bedford I wished they didn't stop at St Albans!
I guess tho we can't have trains just for our own use!
And why close the branch to Moorgate???? Why not keep Farringdon as an 8 car platform and have the last 4 cars for those going straight through?
Better go...miss my 18.24!

 

[class 313]

And why close the branch to Moorgate???? Why not keep Farringdon as an 8 car platform and have the last 4 cars for those going straight through?
Better go...miss my 18.24!

Simple. Longer trains.

You can do a quick hop over the platforms for a tube to moorgate. Which then means FCC can run 12 car services.

 

[Edvid]

Selective Door Opening would not be permitted at Farringdon due to the gradient of 1 in 27 near the northern end (which is also why the platforms will not be extended northwards). Don't forget that neither Barbican nor Moorgate can handle 12-car trains (and I think the eastbound Barbican platform is dangerously narrow for passengers in the rear car of an 8-car train although eastbound 8-car trains stop there; the Moorgate platforms may also be short but I don't know for sure).

On top of that 24 trains will serve the core route during each peak hour in both directions from December 2015, and there is no way in hell that you could achieve that with the Moorgate branch in operation. The inconvenience that Barbican/Moorgate passengers will bear pales in insignificance to the benefits that the remaining vast majority will derive from the Thameslink Programme. I recommend that you read this document for more information (PDF pages 9 to 12 are of particular relevance).

 

[Edvid]

Seeing as the 'Extra 450s for SWT?' thread seems to be more about Thameslink-related stuff (I am also guilty of this) I think it would be a better idea to continue the discussion on those issues in this thread and leave the other thread for anything related to what it was meant for.

 

[class 313]

It sure is an interesting debate we got going on and I feel, that none of it is arguing, mearly stating points. So please can the posts be moved over here so we can carry on?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jordy]

Done

 

[David Sinnett]

Thanks for the Thameslink 2000 link Edvid. Accepting that the Moorgate branch closes for the greater good (Why not close all branch lines so that the mainlines have a better run?) I was interested in one point in that LUL accept FCC tickets between Farringdon and Moorgate. Whilst I have had no problem so far my monthly ticket clearly says no Tube lines allowed. Wonder whether we'll still be able to use the tube to Moorgate after the branch has closed and with no additional cost?

 

[Julian G]

Selective Door Opening would not be permitted at Farringdon due to the gradient of 1 in 27 near the northern end (which is also why the platforms will not be extended northwards). Don't forget that neither Barbican nor Moorgate can handle 12-car trains (and I think the eastbound Barbican platform is dangerously narrow for passengers in the rear car of an 8-car train although eastbound 8-car trains stop there; the Moorgate platforms may also be short but I don't know for sure).

On top of that 24 trains will serve the core route during each peak hour in both directions from December 2015, and there is no way in hell that you could achieve that with the Moorgate branch in operation. The inconvenience that Barbican/Moorgate passengers will bear pales in insignificance to the benefits that the remaining vast majority will derive from the Thameslink Programme. I recommend that you read this document for more information (PDF pages 9 to 12 are of particular relevance).

Moorgate platforms accept 8 car only,

 

[class 313]

Thanks for the Thameslink 2000 link Edvid. Accepting that the Moorgate branch closes for the greater good (Why not close all branch lines so that the mainlines have a better run?)

That's how Mr Beeching was thinking.