Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[The Box Photter]

377502 & 377505 (leading) were on the 17.25 Luton to Gillingham service at Luton this evening. So far I've managed to sample only one class 377 since the timetable came into effect on March this year (and that was a loaned 377/2). Does anyone know why they seem to diagram 377s for northbound trains from Brighton in the morning peak and southbound trains to Brighton/North Kent in the evening peak?

Frankly I'm feeling a bit left out as a "North of St Pancras" commuter as none of the Bedford - Brighton/Brighton - Bedford trains diagrammed for 377s are any use to me at all in either peak.

On a similar topic, can anyone tell me why the 16.30 Blackfriars - St Albans (all stations stopper) is regularly formed of a class 319/2 plus 319/4 (eight cars) closely followed by the 16.36 semi-fast to Bedford, regularly formed of ONE class 319/3 unit? We normally leave St Pancras crush-loaded, then pass the St Albans stopper somewhere between West Hampstead & Cricklewood, noting that the St Albans train is at best half-full and often nearly empty. I realise that both these trains are formed from units that have previously operated other services, but it doesn't seem to my simple brain as an effective (or fair) use of resources.

There must be someone on here who works for FCC and can give me several reasons!

 

[Aictos]

377502 & 377505 (leading) were on the 17.25 Luton to Gillingham service at Luton this evening. So far I've managed to sample only one class 377 since the timetable came into effect on March this year (and that was a loaned 377/2). Does anyone know why they seem to diagram 377s for northbound trains from Brighton in the morning peak and southbound trains to Brighton/North Kent in the evening peak?

Frankly I'm feeling a bit left out as a "North of St Pancras" commuter as none of the Bedford - Brighton/Brighton - Bedford trains diagrammed for 377s are any use to me at all in either peak.

On a similar topic, can anyone tell me why the 16.30 Blackfriars - St Albans (all stations stopper) is regularly formed of a class 319/2 plus 319/4 (eight cars) closely followed by the 16.36 semi-fast to Bedford, regularly formed of ONE class 319/3 unit? We normally leave St Pancras crush-loaded, then pass the St Albans stopper somewhere between West Hampstead & Cricklewood, noting that the St Albans train is at best half-full and often nearly empty. I realise that both these trains are formed from units that have previously operated other services, but it doesn't seem to my simple brain as an effective (or fair) use of resources.

There must be someone on here who works for FCC and can give me several reasons!

That's a good question and one I'm keen to find out as well.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

377502 & 377505 (leading) were on the 17.25 Luton to Gillingham service at Luton this evening. So far I've managed to sample only one class 377 since the timetable came into effect on March this year (and that was a loaned 377/2). Does anyone know why they seem to diagram 377s for northbound trains from Brighton in the morning peak and southbound trains to Brighton/North Kent in the evening peak?

Frankly I'm feeling a bit left out as a "North of St Pancras" commuter as none of the Bedford - Brighton/Brighton - Bedford trains diagrammed for 377s are any use to me at all in either peak.

On a similar topic, can anyone tell me why the 16.30 Blackfriars - St Albans (all stations stopper) is regularly formed of a class 319/2 plus 319/4 (eight cars) closely followed by the 16.36 semi-fast to Bedford, regularly formed of ONE class 319/3 unit? We normally leave St Pancras crush-loaded, then pass the St Albans stopper somewhere between West Hampstead & Cricklewood, noting that the St Albans train is at best half-full and often nearly empty. I realise that both these trains are formed from units that have previously operated other services, but it doesn't seem to my simple brain as an effective (or fair) use of resources.

There must be someone on here who works for FCC and can give me several reasons!

I can give you an idea with the 377's. Basically they all stable at Bedford during the night and start pouring out from there. Current diagrams show 9 units (6 trains) leave before 7am. The next 'wave' off 377 are the ones coming from Southeastern destination and going back out.

This situation will improve as more 377 arrive at Bedford. Just had a quick scan of the 89 daily departures from Bedford south, 26% of them are supposed to be 377 with 15 trains. Add in another 8 trains and hopefully you'll get to ride them more often to work. I only finally went on my 4th 377 jounery (on only the second unit I've ridden) on friday. I see them all day expect when I want to go home!

As for the 319 issue, well it could actually be a case they are like to balance demand at some other point during the day and the time you use is the least effective part of the trains diagram.

 

[Edvid]

We may have 15 377 diagrams but we still have only 11 377s to fill them. Also, at least half of the 377s in use were /2s until 505 came along last Friday.

As for the 319s, I've checked out the FCC 319 diagrams from December 2008 (only because they're the newest ones I have), the SER CWN (May 2009) and the FCC May 2009 timetable.

The 1537 Sutton - St Albans (London Blackfriars 1630) reverses in the Centre Siding and becomes the 1728 St Albans - Sevenoaks (London Blackfriars 1806); earlier in the same diagram the 0708 Luton - Wimbledon (London Blackfriars 0808 ) service is involved.

(De/At)taching is not permitted in the Centre Siding but can be done at Bedford and Luton. Once the units leave Luton at 1044 they venture no further north than St Albans for the rest of the day, finishing at Bellingham Sidings (and yes they're coupled throughout the day).

The 1534 Sevenoaks - Bedford (London Blackfriars 1636) becomes the 1804 Bedford - Sutton (London Blackfriars 1916), not sure about the preceding services because Cricklewood Depot/UGL does not have its own category in the CWN.

 

[The Box Photter]

Thank you mackenzie_blu and Edvid for concise answers. I just hope that the rest of the 377s come on stream before the really hot weather (hopefully) hits in the summer!

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Im not sure why but they've started messing around with the 377 on their diagrams.

For example

377502 started out as diagram 604 and ended up 609.
377505 started as 603, went to 608 and ended the night as 604
377208 did 610, 609 then 603.

Confused the hell out of me as I've been trying to list which diagram each units been on. Thats out the window for now.

I have been sent a picture of 377509 which Ive uploaded to flickr. Does anyone have a picture of 377502 in livery? If not Im gonna chase the unit on thursday for it.

 

[MCR247]

Do you know if they wil ever put FCC vinyls? will they do it when they have all/most off them so that they can afford to take one out of service?

 

[thelem]

377502 already has vinyls (lower half only). They were added last weekend.

 

[Edvid]

Got 507+209 in both directions today (BO603/604). They were misbehaving at Harpenden and St Albans (12 minutes down at the latter) and I feared the worst at StP, thankfully the doors opened promptly there though I didn't wait for their departure.

The northbound journey went like a dream (the automatic PIS was not in use though) and I even caught the lone Midland 317 at Harpenden.

I also found 502 with the Urban Lights (coupled to 505 on BO613/612) and I must say it looks less vibrant than its BREL counterparts.

Digressing somewhat, I see that a few of the insulator pods and registration arms at the north end of Farringdon have been replaced. Still no changes at the Snow Hill Tunnel end though.

 

[MCR247]

anyone have any pictures of 502?

 

[73110]

Got 507+209 in both directions today (BO603/604). They were misbehaving at Harpenden and St Albans (12 minutes down at the latter) and I feared the worst at StP, thankfully the doors opened promptly there though I didn't wait for their departure.

The northbound journey went like a dream (the automatic PIS was not in use though) and I even caught the lone Midland 317 at Harpenden.

I also found 502 with the Urban Lights (coupled to 505 on BO613/612) and I must say it looks less vibrant than its BREL counterparts.

Digressing somewhat, I see that a few of the insulator pods and registration arms at the north end of Farringdon have been replaced. Still no changes at the Snow Hill Tunnel end though.

Interesting that, what time was the northbound trip as I seen the same units later on heading towards Brighton with 507 displaying 'Electrostar' on the sides and 209 had the scrolling display listing all the stations.

As for the pods at Farringdon I noticed some of these sometime ago and also well into the tunnels heading towards Kings Cross a lot have been replaced too.

That fatality in the morning threw a few things up, lots of cancellations and misplaced stock. The 1454 Bed-Bton was 319013 instead of an eight car 377 which was interesting as there were two eight car 377 units in Bedford sidings at that time.

Spotted an observation coach tied to a 37 this afternoon heading south on the MML and also caught it further down near Kentish Town heading north. Loved the sound of the engine, something not heard for months!

And finally, noted at Selhurst this afternoon were 3 73's and 2 31's

 

[mackenzie_blu]

anyone have any pictures of 502?

I've uploaded a couple of pictures of 377502 at City Thameslink to give an idea of the livery. Almost managed to get an image of 377509 at Selhurst as well. One shot I got shows 502 with an unliveried 377/5 giving a clear impression how much difference there is between the two.

Interesting that, what time was the northbound trip as I seen the same units later on heading towards Brighton with 507 displaying 'Electrostar' on the sides and 209 had the scrolling display listing all the stations.

Sounds like 377507 crashed and was reset. Happens rather alot lately.

The second Gillingham 1S05 was capped early at Blackfriars due to a train fault. The diagram was run by 377213 & 377504. I don't know which of the two units that was faulty.

Just for interest 377209 & 377507 are to spend the night on Southern's patch running as 5Z25. I think due to the nature of the movement its a driver night training run.

Bedford Caudwell Depot 2121
Bedford a. 2123 d. 2129
Luton 2149
St Albans 2156
St Pancras 2213
Blackfriars 2220
Elephant & Castle 2228
Herne Hill 2236
Tulse Hill 2240
Streatham 2240
Selhurst Depot a. 2314

Selhurst Depot d. 0054
Norwood Junction 0108
East Croydon 0113
Redhill 0123
Gatwick Airport 0128
Three Bridges a. 0131 d. 0136
Haywards Heath a. 0151 d. 0209
Preston Park a. 0238 d. 0243
Brighton a. 0247

Brighton d. 0255
Preston Park a. 0258 d. 0303
Haywards Heath 0333
Three Bridges a. 0348 d. 0353
Gatwick 0356
Redhill 0403
East Croydon 0416
Norwood Junction 0418
Crystal Palace 0422
Herne Hill 0432
Elephant & Castle a. 0437 d. 0439
Blackfriars 0442
St Pancras 0449
St Albans 0510
Luton 0521
Bedford 0543

Intresting 5T13 is due to be at Bedford at 0544 as part of diagrams 611/610 which then makes up 2T13 service to Brighton.

Video of the pair is on my flickr.

 

[Edvid]

Interesting that, what time was the northbound trip as I seen the same units later on heading towards Brighton with 507 displaying 'Electrostar' on the sides and 209 had the scrolling display listing all the stations.

1704 BTN-BDM. Also worth mentioning I bashed 209 southbound and 507 northbound yesterday.

That fatality in the morning threw a few things up, lots of cancellations and misplaced stock. The 1454 Bed-Bton was 319013 instead of an eight car 377 which was interesting as there were two eight car 377 units in Bedford sidings at that time.

The 1510 BDM-BTN (nominally 2 319s) was also shortformed, thank goodness I bailed out at London Bridge.

The second Gillingham 1S05 was capped early at Blackfriars due to a train fault. The diagram was run by 377213 & 377504. I don't know which of the two units that was faulty.

Bet that was fun. Was also late as I passed that formation near Farringdon at 1826, I think.

What do the SER Blackfriars passengers currently think of the KO0 services compared to the pre-KO0 services I wonder?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Bet that was fun. Was also late as I passed that formation near Farringdon at 1826, I think.

What do the SER Blackfriars passengers currently think of the KO0 services compared to the pre-KO0 services I wonder?

Well I as at City so didn't see the choas at Blackfriars that would have caused!

As for the SER passengers, well to be honest they are ok with the timetable. But the Ashford/Gillingham passengers are not happy. Atleast one of the three trains is late each day but generally only by minutes. The problem is that many of the service have been cancelled or capped before getting to them once the train shows a minutes delay they begin to kick off. They want the bays back and aren't happy. That said they are only a small portion of the customers travelling through Blackfriars but cause the most problems in my experience.

 

[The Box Photter]

Today's 377 sightings:

377 501 plus a 377/2 (I think it was 377 206) heading north through Harlington at 08.20 this morning (in service).

377 507 + 377 209 on 18.10 Gillingham service at Blackfriars this evening.

Two 377/2s had formed the preceding Sevenoaks service but I didn't get onto the platform in time to see the unit numbers.

18.22 Blackfriars - Bedford formed of 377 501 (leading) plus 377/2 (rear). Doors took over a minute to enable and open at StP causing much amusement/consternation/frantic button pushing! Left StP about 3 mins late and arrived at Flitwick about 3 mins early. I notice that the seats on 377 501 are already looking shabby and threadbare in some places.

 

[westcoaster]

Today's 377 sightings:

377 501 plus a 377/2 (I think it was 377 206) heading north through Harlington at 08.20 this morning (in service).

377 507 + 377 209 on 18.10 Gillingham service at Blackfriars this evening.

Two 377/2s had formed the preceding Sevenoaks service but I didn't get onto the platform in time to see the unit numbers.

18.22 Blackfriars - Bedford formed of 377 501 (leading) plus 377/2 (rear). Doors took over a minute to enable and open at StP causing much amusement/consternation/frantic button pushing! Left StP about 3 mins late and arrived at Flitwick about 3 mins early. I notice that the seats on 377 501 are already looking shabby and threadbare in some places.

377's are only used to ashford intl/gillingham, none go to sevenoaks.

 

[The Box Photter]

377's are only used to ashford intl/gillingham, none go to sevenoaks.

My mistake, it was probably the Ashford service.

 

[westcoaster]

Heard on the grape vine all 377/5's have been removed from servcice.any one able to confirm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to add further the three serviced through from the south eastern division were formed as: 1st NB 2 x 377/2's 2nd NB 1x377/2 3rd NB 1x377/2 also 1x377/2 NB from brighton to bedford

 

[Edvid]

From UKmodernEMU (courtesy of 'cppricey1967'):
All the 377/5s have been stopped for precautionary checks, owing to an axle
problem on one of the units. They are all stood where they finished up last
night.

From FCC:
Due to staff shortages and a lack of available trains due to a fault some services on the Thameslink route will be cancelled or formed of only 4 carriages.

Cancellations:

08:16 Brighton - Bedford
09:34 Brighton - Bedford

Short formations:

Those running only with 4 coaches include:

06:23 Ashford - Bedford
06:56 Bedford - Brighton
07:24 Brighton - Bedford
08:04 Bedford - Brighton
08:20 Bedford - Brighton

09:40 Brighton - Bedford

10:10 Bedford - Brighton
09:37 Brighton to Bedford
10:04 Brighton to Bedford
12:07 Brighton to Bedford
12:37 Brighton to Bedford

First Capital Connect apologies for the inconvenience this will cause to your journey

It goes without saying that safety comes first, but it's still annoying nonetheless. :roll: (This is not without precedent though, remember the (then) Silverlink 321s?)

 

[The Box Photter]

Hang on minute, the 06.56 Bedford to Brighton, although in theory a 377 diagram, is always composed of 2X319s and is usually full & standing from Luton.

Has any indication been given by FCC as to how long it will be without the 377/5s that had already been delivered?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Hang on minute, the 06.56 Bedford to Brighton, although in theory a 377 diagram, is always composed of 2X319s and is usually full & standing from Luton.

Has any indication been given by FCC as to how long it will be without the 377/5s that had already been delivered?

Nothings been said internally tho 277504 has gone to Selhurst and 377507 has gone to Chart Leacon for the checks to be carried out according to Colin from UKmodernEMU.

Either way its bad event but possibly luckly to occur on a friday and give an extra couple of days to fix the problem. More worrying is the fact that this is the second issue with the build (first being the welding problems) for a fleet thats less than 3 months old. This has got to affect Bombarbier's Thameslink rolling stock bid.

 

[Aictos]

Nothings been said internally tho 277504 has gone to Selhurst

What's a Class 277? Some new EMU/DMU?

Only joking, the 377/5 fleet isn't haven't much luck is it?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

What's a Class 277? Some new EMU/DMU?

Only joking, the 377/5 fleet isn't haven't much luck is it?

Well if its to do with me its an EMU! Hehehe, yeah its a 377!

More news from FCC

There a power restriction on the Brighton Mainline (BML) for FCC's Electrostars. So far 11 377 diagrams are allowed on the BML. Diagram 605 is the 11th 377 diagram and came into force on the 2nd June. From 15th June FCC must run 11 out of 15 diagrams with 377's. This is due to rise to 12 diagrams by 20th July and 14 diagrams by 3rd August. Full upgrades to substations are due by 22 August.

This means 4 expect to have 12 377 in service by mid July and 14 377's by mid August. Currently FCC have 11 377's, six 377/5 and five 377/2 since 377204 returned to Southern on the 29th May. Basically even if more 377's turns up it means they will sit idle at Cauldwell. Note all 23 377/5 are not due to be deliveried until late December now.

The door faults southbound are an intermitent fault at St Pancras. FCC and industry partners have met to solve the problem. Nothing mentioned about northbound where I personally experience 5mins on the train awaiting doors to open on a 377/2. Beacon strength is one issue being looked at.

8 377 have a AC/DC software changeover mod for Farringdon to decrease the issues there.

News from cppricey1967 over at UKmodernEMU

Apparently the 377/5s are going to be stopped for a while yet. Estimate this afternoon was that 377507 which was moved to Chart Leacon last night is unlikely to be released until Wednesday.

As a result 377213 will be running 5Z60 21+55 Ashford - Tonbridge tonight for onward movement to Victoria tomorrow.

377209 moved 5P00 10+00 Selhurst - Victoria, and will be attached to 377213 for Monday.

Plan is that 377207 + 377208 will go out on 1E63 06.23 Ashford - Bedford on Monday, with 377209 + 377213 on 1E65 07.29 Rochester - Bedford.

1E61 06.09 Bearsted - Bedford will be worked by 6 car Networker and terminate at City Thameslink.

Highly likely that on Monday evening 1N73 16.46 Bedford - Ashford will start City Thameslink with Networker stock. This to be confirmed.

 

[73110]

Nothing mentioned about northbound where I personally experience 5mins on the train awaiting doors to open on a 377/2. Beacon strength is one issue being looked at.

Five mins seems a long time nowdays. All drivers have got used to them and now it is easy to deal with. I have had this happen with both the 377/2's and the 377/5's.

Train comes to a stand at St Pancs, you press the two door open buttons together for a few seconds, nothing happens, well, the door button on the right will extinguish almost immediately so you know the doors won't open. You then look at the MITRAC screen which will show you a display of stations, A-Z, first being Abbey Wood so you press location not listed on the screen and another will come up. You then type in ST and the station list will start with stations beginning with ST so you touch St Pancras Thameslink. It will ask you to confirm and you simply press Yes and then try the doors again and they will open. Takes about 60 seconds or as long as it has just taken to read this.

In my experience this can happen both ways too. North or south it is hit and miss, sometimes you get there and they open straight away, sometimes they don't.

As for the beacon strength being weak well I don't know about that, the only two places the SDO Beacon alarm goes off and the MITRAC display tells you are at Farringdon going south and London Bridge, also going south.

Hope this has explained a few things

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Five mins seems a long time nowdays. All drivers have got used to them and now it is easy to deal with. I have had this happen with both the 377/2's and the 377/5's.

Train comes to a stand at St Pancs, you press the two door open buttons together for a few seconds, nothing happens, well, the door button on the right will extinguish almost immediately so you know the doors won't open. You then look at the MITRAC screen which will show you a display of stations, A-Z, first being Abbey Wood so you press location not listed on the screen and another will come up. You then type in ST and the station list will start with stations beginning with ST so you touch St Pancras Thameslink. It will ask you to confirm and you simply press Yes and then try the doors again and they will open. Takes about 60 seconds or as long as it has just taken to read this.

In my experience this can happen both ways too. North or south it is hit and miss, sometimes you get there and they open straight away, sometimes they don't.

As for the beacon strength being weak well I don't know about that, the only two places the SDO Beacon alarm goes off and the MITRAC display tells you are at Farringdon going south and London Bridge, also going south.

Hope this has explained a few things

I would add that futher driver training is going at the moment so more drivers seem to be getting trained. The problem I had with the 5mins was only last week so its possible this was a newly trained driver but it is getting better. Faringdon continues to be a source of trouble but this new mod seems to be having an affect as the down time there seems to be decreasing.

FCC seems to think the beacon strength is a possible cause but they are checking out a few other things as well.

The introduction of the 377 has hit every possible problem it seems.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Update from Matthew at UKmodernEMU on the 377/5 situation

Some might be aware of the situation of these units and some not, but currently 377/ 5s are SUSPENDED FROM SERVICE because one of them has been found to have a welding fault. This weekend, maintenance teams have been checking some of the more reliable units, but still not allowed to be used.

Expect short formations, alterations and cancellations tomorrow morning!

I hope to update the situation tomorrow.

I fear this could cause Bombarbier to lose the Thameslink trains bid.

 

[westcoaster]

Update from Matthew at UKmodernEMU on the 377/5 situation

Some might be aware of the situation of these units and some not, but currently 377/ 5s are SUSPENDED FROM SERVICE because one of them has been found to have a welding fault. This weekend, maintenance teams have been checking some of the more reliable units, but still not allowed to be used.

Expect short formations, alterations and cancellations tomorrow morning!

I hope to update the situation tomorrow.

I fear this could cause Bombarbier to lose the Thameslink trains bid.

i can assure you it is not a welding issue, BEARING in mind it could be something to do with what the axle is connected to at each end

indeed i think this might just hurt Bombardier's chances.

 

[Edvid]

The next FCC webchat is taking place between 1pm and 3pm today.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The next FCC webchat is taking place between 1pm and 3pm today.

From the webchat today

377/5 -

We stood down the 6 377/5 units last Friday due to a problem with the earth return brushes which was found on unit 377 502 on routine maintenance. We then examined 377 505 and found a similar problem. We therefore stopped the fleet for examination and rectification. There are 14 sets of return brushes on class 377/5 and not more than 30% have been found defective on any unit. However we do not want these to deteriate further and the situation to go unchecked so the manufacturer, Bombardier, have been working on a solution. This solution has started to be introduced today and we expect to have trains back in service at the rate of two per day.

This was added to a different question -

As a precaution, we have had to stand down from service all 6 of our new and recently-delivered Class 377/5 Electrostars after discovering an issue with the power transmission system during a routine inspection. This relates to earth return brushes at the axle ends.

We welcome the manufacturer's commitment to fix the fault and will return the trains to service as soon as possible - hopefully starting Thursday and completing Monday.

And on the case of the doors at St Pancras International -

We are aware of the problems, which are caused by technical comms issues with the beacon at St Pancras and the receiver on the trains. We are runnning more test trains to understand why the problem continues to occur, and Network Rails engineers have been supported by our engineers to understand what is causing the interference to the signal between track and train.

It is the removal of the interference (which we are working to establish what is causing it) which will solve the problems.

Frustratingly the interference did not manifest when FCC/NR/Southern were testing last year!

Well least we've got some answers now and have an good idea when the units will be back. Maybe 377509 and the 378s will be fixed after FCC's six units are completed?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Some news from FCC

Now there is 6 377/5, one will be kept out of service for training, maintance and the livery applied.

No futher boosting of trains operating will happen until the end of august. This also the date for the return of the 377/2's to Southern.

FCC also note until recurrent problems with the fleet, Bombardier were delivering a 377/5 at the rate of one per week.

In september the 317 will return to the GN route.

The 319 heavy exam and traction motor mods should be restarted in Sept.

Southeastern DC only services with Networkers will continue until December.

**update**

Tim from Electrostars Yahoo! group reports 377510 is now en route to Selhurst from Bombardier Derby. Good news.