Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[swt_passenger]

Do you mean St Pancras? London Terminals tickets are valid to Blackfriars from the south.

But yes, all of these finer details haven't been communicated to passengers before the TL launch in any way. Ticket validity and first class seating on the new services are important things that passengers should be told about through leaflets, posters etc. It could cost people a lot of money if they get it wrong.

They were announced on the website somewhere, (buried with the timetable info with the ‘railplan20/20’ stuff), which is how I started a thread about it a couple of weeks back. A couple of us wondered if they ever bothered briefing the staff though.

 

[talldave]

Do you mean St Pancras? London Terminals tickets are valid to Blackfriars from the south.

But yes, all of these finer details haven't been communicated to passengers before the TL launch in any way. Ticket validity and first class seating on the new services are important things that passengers should be told about through leaflets, posters etc. It could cost people a lot of money if they get it wrong.

I know they are valid to Blackfriars, but they're also valid to City Thameslink. It was in response to a question about validity to City Thameslink that Southeastern stared that validity was only to Blackfriars.

Timetables would be nice, for starters.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know they are valid to Blackfriars, but they're also valid to City Thameslink. It was in response to a question about validity to City Thameslink that Southeastern stared that validity was only to Blackfriars...

Well, with Southeastern no longer running to City T/L, I expect their Twitter people are unaware of the concept of changing trains, so that station might not be in their idiot’s guide...

 

[Antman]

I had a little ride on the new service today from Redhill to Finsbury Park, a nice enough journey and some positive vibes from other passengers. I overheard a lady sat opposite me that she was off to visit family in Lincoln and how wonderful it was that she could now board a train at Merstham and travel all the way to Peterborough for her connection and no longer had to change in London. Even the fact that the previous train which she had intended to get was cancelled, it actually ran fast from Gatwick to East Croydon, and she was likely to miss her intended connection didn't seem to bother her too much. I would imagine a lot of passengers might do that for trips further north and avoid Kings Cross, there might be some merit in stopping more trains at Peterborough or Stevenage? I'm slightly surprised that these trains call at Merstham and Coulsdon South but not Purley. Rather amusing to hear a train at Finsbury Park being announced as going to London Horsham!

 

[Bishopstone]

Buses running this evening between Three Bridges and Horsham, where every TL stopping service in both directions is cancelled.

 

[700007]

The 1554 Peterborough-Horsham has been sat at Finsbury Park for 20 minutes. Now the 1555 Horsham-Peterborough train has arrived and been sitting on the other side of the station for 10 minutes. Don't tell me the drivers are going to swap? Is that what it's come to?

(edit: it was)

I was on this service - 700153, is this its first day in service? Remarkably clean and shiny.

Service sat at Finsbury Park for 30 minutes until the 1738 to Horsham turned up on platform 4 and overtook (taking all the passengers with it) because that train didn't require a driver change I don't think.

Appalling service from ThamesLink and heads should roll. For a multi billion pound taxpayer funded project, claiming a revolution in travel, GTR has made a right mockery of it. It is disgusting the drivers haven't been recruited and / or trained appropriately despite this change being planned for years! The management who are responsible, I don't mean to be rash particularly if my facts are wrong, should be sacked quite frankly for such a huge cock up.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I must admit, from reading this thread the Thameslink launch is turning into one of the biggest embarrassments the UK rail industry has ever suffered.

 

[Ianno87]

I had a little ride on the new service today from Redhill to Finsbury Park, a nice enough journey and some positive vibes from other passengers. I overheard a lady sat opposite me that she was off to visit family in Lincoln and how wonderful it was that she could now board a train at Merstham and travel all the way to Peterborough for her connection and no longer had to change in London. Even the fact that the previous train which she had intended to get was cancelled, it actually ran fast from Gatwick to East Croydon, and she was likely to miss her intended connection didn't seem to bother her too much. I would imagine a lot of passengers might do that for trips further north and avoid Kings Cross, there might be some merit in stopping more trains at Peterborough or Stevenage? I'm slightly surprised that these trains call at Merstham and Coulsdon South but not Purley. Rather amusing to hear a train at Finsbury Park being announced as going to London Horsham!

Stopping extra long distance stuff at Stevenage and Peterborough is always going to be challenging from a capacity perspective, but I'm genuinely interested to see how many south of the river passengers switch to changing at Stevenage because of the easier 5 minute cross-platform connection. Or whether the 'terminal' mentality will prevail.

Even journey options from Cambridge via Stevenage to the North are now more commonly offered in planners, due to the extra train per hour and slick connection times offered.

 

[BluePenguin]

I can confirm that neither the front or back section on the class 700 from Rainham are declassified.

I got on at Rochester and was told that as I had a standard ticket I was sitting in the wrong section.

(I was sitting in the rear first class)

Who told you that? Thameslink trains don't have conductors

 

[philjo]

Because they are inept.

It is actually worse that you state. 1706 and 1806 WGC also gone. 1608 Brighton - Cambridge gone (1742 from Finsbury Park). So no trains to Cambridge from Finsbury Park between 1701 & 1827.

Not sure if they will stop anything additionally but they just don’t seem to care.

The 17:42 kings cross to Kings Lynn called additionally at Finsbury Park and Letchworth this evening.
17:24 Kings cross to Royston also called additionally at Finsbury Park and Stevenage.

 

[Antman]

Buses running this evening between Three Bridges and Horsham, where every TL stopping service in both directions is cancelled.

Are Southern still running between Three Bridges and Horsham?

 

[Kanrakuq]

I was on this service - 700153, is this its first day in service? Remarkably clean and shiny.

Service sat at Finsbury Park for 30 minutes until the 1738 to Horsham turned up on platform 4 and overtook (taking all the passengers with it) because that train didn't require a driver change I don't think.

Your original train ended up limping off into Kings Cross about 10 minutes later, after successfully blocking the platform for nearly an hour.

I'm very sure your driver was told to bail out and drive the outbound commuters back to Peterborough (it was basically the only train running on that line out of London in two hours— all the others had been cancelled). Not sure why the other train driver didn't get in yours, maybe end of shift or something? Unless I read it wrong.

 

[JonathanH]

Are Southern still running between Three Bridges and Horsham?

Yes, Arun Valley trains still running from Victoria

 

[mmh]

Don't worry, Southeastern's Twitter ****s were telling people from the South that London Terminals tickets are valid to Blackfriars! Their manager stuck his nose in when I pointed out their incompetence but even he accepted my comment that no answer is better than the wrong answer.

There's really no need to be abusive, either on here or to the people manning twitter accounts , they have a horrendous job and on the whole are remarkably polite. Blackfriars is and has always been counted as part of "London Terminals" for journeys from south of it. I'm afraid you were who was wrong.

 

[JonathanH]

Your original train ended up limping off into Kings Cross about 10 minutes later, after successfully blocking the platform for nearly an hour.

I'm very sure your driver was told to bail out and drive the outbound commuters back to Peterborough (it was basically the only train running on that line out of London in two hours— all the others had been cancelled). Not sure why the other train driver didn't get in yours, maybe end of shift or something? Unless I read it wrong.

Presumably returned north on this
9J52 1754 Finsbury Park to Peterborough (should have been 1625 from Horsham)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64326/2018/05/23/advanced

and then to Spital sidings missing a round trip to Horsham

They can't just cancel the Peterborough to Horsham service - there isn't capacity at Kings Cross or London Bridge low level to terminate it there and presumably drivers are learning the new route on the job - but the mess is going to go on for ages isn't it.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Your original train ended up limping off into Kings Cross about 10 minutes later, after successfully blocking the platform for nearly an hour.

I'm very sure your driver was told to bail out and drive the outbound commuters back to Peterborough (it was basically the only train running on that line out of London in two hours— all the others had been cancelled). Not sure why the other train driver didn't get in yours, maybe end of shift or something? Unless I read it wrong.

Words... just fail me. One train in 2 hours - how is this even happening? It’s a London commuter route on a main line! Just how short of drivers are GTR?

 

[JonathanH]

Words... just fail me. One train in 2 hours - how is this even happening? It’s a London commuter route on a main line! Just how short of drivers are GTR?

Are they short of drivers? Isn't it more likely that they are
a) short of route-trained GN-based drivers who know Thameslink Core / Horsham
b) short of route-trained Southern-based drivers who know Finsbury Park / Peterborough
c) short of anywhere practical to turn around trains from each direction in London
d) unable to match up the traincrew in each direction

Someone posted up thread that there are probably plenty of drivers who actually sign the whole route - after all they have been running two trains daily for three months across London - it is just that they aren't in the right place at the right time.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Someone else posted that the timetable was finalised so late that the driver diagram ‘linking’ was done on an outdated version of the plan. This in itself will cause many day to day issues, perhaps this is a factor worth considering.

 

[Failed Unit]

The Journey Planner says the 1806 is running.

Yeah, which actually is good and bad at the same time, when I checked at the time of typing it was cancelled. Maybe they found a driver. But I normally check at the same time every day and made plans to get a later train as a result to avoid the choas. Didn't need to in the end. Although I didn't like the fact they had cancelled so many - I prefer to know ahead. Can't believe I am complaining the re-instated it.

 

[swt_passenger]

There's really no need to be abusive, either on here or to the people manning twitter accounts , they have a horrendous job and on the whole are remarkably polite. Blackfriars is and has always been counted as part of "London Terminals" for journeys from south of it. I'm afraid you were who was wrong.

If you see his subsequent post talldave went on to say they had been asked about City Thameslink. I’d agree though that the post you’re quoting doesn’t actually get that across at all...

 

[bramling]

I must admit, from reading this thread the Thameslink launch is turning into one of the biggest embarrassments the UK rail industry has ever suffered.

Yes it's worse than Operation Princess.

It's simply not acceptable to mess up day after day of services, especially peak ones. So much for all the planning - if for whatever reason it wasn't possible to run this week's advertised service (even after all the various stages of descoping) then contingency arrangements should have been made, and at the very least there should have been some kind of plan with arrangements communicated in advance.

 

[bramling]

Are they short of drivers? Isn't it more likely that they are
a) short of route-trained GN-based drivers who know Thameslink Core / Horsham
b) short of route-trained Southern-based drivers who know Finsbury Park / Peterborough
c) short of anywhere practical to turn around trains from each direction in London
d) unable to match up the traincrew in each direction

Someone posted up thread that there are probably plenty of drivers who actually sign the whole route - after all they have been running two trains daily for three months across London - it is just that they aren't in the right place at the right time.

How many years has this project been planned? To think that originally it was all going to be coming in this year.

 

[bramling]

Presumably returned north on this
9J52 1754 Finsbury Park to Peterborough (should have been 1625 from Horsham)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64326/2018/05/23/advanced

and then to Spital sidings missing a round trip to Horsham

They can't just cancel the Peterborough to Horsham service - there isn't capacity at Kings Cross or London Bridge low level to terminate it there and presumably drivers are learning the new route on the job - but the mess is going to go on for ages isn't it.

Yet we have read on here from various people how "simple" it would be to divert trains elsewhere should the core be inaccessible for whatever reason, including diverting to King's Cross ...

 

[mmh]

If you see his subsequent post talldave went on to say they had been asked about City Thameslink. I’d agree though that the post you’re quoting doesn’t actually get that across at all...

Ah, right. Swearing aside, if people are saying City Thameslink isn't a London Terminal they're obviously wrong.

The "London Thameslink" destination as a workaround for this is a farce, just make London Terminals tickets open all barriers and work out how to change the routeing guide later, and if it doesn't fit do it as an easement.

 

[tsr]

Who told you that? Thameslink trains don't have conductors

There are revenue staff ("Passenger Hosts") and Rail Enforcement Officers around. They should all be aware of the various First Class rules, though.

Are Southern still running between Three Bridges and Horsham?

Yes, Arun Valley trains still running from Victoria

Over the last few days, a lot of Southern's express trains down the Arun Valley have been given Special Stop Orders for Ifield / Faygate / Littlehaven as appropriate for the stops missed by any cancelled Thameslink services, of which there have been many.

The problem tonight in particular, though, was that not only were the Thameslink services disrupted, but London Bridge had a major points detection fault on the Central side (as used by Southern-branded trains), and Victoria also experienced a points failure. The timing couldn't have been worse, and although GTR Control were clearly on the ball, it was inevitably going to end up impacting much of the Southern network. As such, buses were ordered to run between Three Bridges and Horsham - calling at the smaller stations as a priority in place of Crawley, which was still seeing sporadic delayed trains which still managed to convey most commuters doing slightly longer-distance journeys from the London / Gatwick areas. To add SSOs to all sorts of random delayed Southern mainline services would only have resulted in stress, confusion and extra delays, so buses were deemed better.

 

[fusionblue]

Does anyone have any experience of things down the Sutton loop or sevenoaks since the change?

 

[Ianno87]

Yes it's worse than Operation Princess.

It's simply not acceptable to mess up day after day of services, especially peak ones. So much for all the planning - if for whatever reason it wasn't possible to run this week's advertised service (even after all the various stages of descoping) then contingency arrangements should have been made, and at the very least there should have been some kind of plan with arrangements communicated in advance.

Operation Princess was basically an unsustainable timetable that stretched all of the available resources (drivers and trains) just that bit too far, combined with acute crowding. Long distance trains tightly wound around many other services and short turnround times leading to routine cancellations and regular turning back short of destination and very low PPM figures as a result. The only fix within the available set of resources was to start chopping off bits of the network.

Observing Thameslink so far (a whopping 3 days of it, admittedly), the trains that *are* running (still well in excess of 80% of GTR overall) are generally running well, without the snowballing of minor delays that Princess saw.

Nobody is pretending that the train crew cancellations aren't a problem, but it's not systematic - with time it'll get there, I'm convinced. It's just a matter of having the right resources in place in time - really just a single piece of a very complex jigsaw to 'fix'. Princess had multiple problems, and only one way to fix them all...

 

[jnjkerbin]

Does anyone have any experience of things down the Sutton loop or sevenoaks since the change?

Sevenoaks has been running pretty well from what i've seen - in fact slightly better than normal seeing as they no longer pick up any delays through the core or on the MML as they often would. They also now have increased turn around times at Sevenoaks. I have seen RRBs at Sevenoaks on standby but don't think they've been needed much, if at all.

 

[talldave]

There's really no need to be abusive, either on here or to the people manning twitter accounts , they have a horrendous job and on the whole are remarkably polite. Blackfriars is and has always been counted as part of "London Terminals" for journeys from south of it. I'm afraid you were who was wrong.

It's quite simple. Someone asks if London Terminals (coming from the south) is valid to City Thameslink (which it is) and is incorrectly told it's not and is only valid to Blackfriars. I am not wrong and I double checked with the helpful experts on here before criticising SE's Twitter team.

Fortunately, this error didn't result in a passenger travelling beyond validity, but if it had I'm sure the relevant prosecutions department would have put them in court.

I make no apologies for defending the passenger against the uselessess of TOCs. The changes to Kent services have been a pathetic shambles. People's lives are thrown into unpredictable disarray whilst GTR spend an unknown number of weeks "introducing" services. How the hell are people meant to get to work in the meantime??

 

[NorthKent1989]

Somehow I don't think this is going to settle down anytime soon, its shambolic really considering they have been planning on Thameslink's expansion since 1991 back when it was"THAMESLINK 2000" and now after the constant "Times are changing" announcements it falls apart, I know Thameslink aren't the only ones failing here, there have been issues up and down the country.

As a Medway commuter I hate how the media are acting like the Rainham service is all shiny and wonderful and how its great that we can now reach Luton or West Hampstead on an arse aching stopping service, I know many people along the Medway-Woolwich-London route that are dreading each commute, and how packed the trains are now by the time we get to Dartford or Abbey Wood,
Even Woolwich commuters I know are annoyed, they're pleased about the Thameslink but they thought it would run from Dartford and the semi fasts would still run, granted they should have looked at the timetable, but its no less a dogs dinner either way.

I wonder how Crossrail's launch will go?