Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Bromley boy]

As a Medway commuter I hate how the media are acting like the Rainham service is all shiny and wonderful and how its great that we can now reach Luton or West Hampstead on an arse aching stopping service, I know many people along the Medway-Woolwich-London route that are dreading each commute, and how packed the trains are now by the time we get to Dartford or Abbey Wood,
Even Woolwich commuters I know are annoyed, they're pleased about the Thameslink but they thought it would run from Dartford and the semi fasts would still run, granted they should have looked at the timetable, but its no less a dogs dinner either way.

Are there still any mainline SE services into Blackfriars?

There was previously at least one (ex Ramsgate) SE mainline service in the AM peak which was fast from Rochester - Blackfriars (bay platforms) via Bromley South.

Pretty sure there are also some Cannon St services which are non stop to and from Rochester (there certainly were up until last week and I can’t believe they’ve been removed).

If so, is that an alternative? (Depending on where in London you actually want to end up!)

 

[gingerheid]

Do we know if NR will produce corrected tables 17 and 25?

 

[700007]

Your original train ended up limping off into Kings Cross about 10 minutes later, after successfully blocking the platform for nearly an hour.

I'm very sure your driver was told to bail out and drive the outbound commuters back to Peterborough (it was basically the only train running on that line out of London in two hours— all the others had been cancelled). Not sure why the other train driver didn't get in yours, maybe end of shift or something? Unless I read it wrong.

From what we were told, the relief driver was driving through the core but they were at London Bridge and it would take ages to get to Finsbury Park!

 

[High Dyke]

The 12:11 Gatwick to Peterborough was cancelled today due to operational issues

The train (unit 700152) was terminated at Three Bridges due to a fault with a brake fault @ Horsham that couldn't be remedied. It was agreed for the service to continue to Three Bridges where it could be better dealt with.

What I haven't seen in any of this thread is mention of the 'Operational Incident' at Finsbury Park regarding this train. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O99188/2018/05/20/advanced . The driver stopped a 12-car train at the 8-car marker and released the doors. There were no reports of anyone falling from the train, the driver relocked the doors and moved to the correct stopping mark. Whether the train then had to await a relief driver to take the service forward or the offending driver was allowed to continue is not recorded.

 

[JonathanH]

Seems like they haven't trained all rostered drivers to East Grinstead either.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64104/2018/05/24/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O00385/2018/05/24/advanced

 

[urpert]

Does anyone have any experience of things down the Sutton loop or sevenoaks since the change?

Sevenoaks has been roughly 1 in every 4 cancelled, at least in the peaks.

 

[Class465fan]

Is the rear first class declassified on the north Kent route?

 

[Failed Unit]

Operation Princess was basically an unsustainable timetable that stretched all of the available resources (drivers and trains) just that bit too far, combined with acute crowding. Long distance trains tightly wound around many other services and short turnround times leading to routine cancellations and regular turning back short of destination and very low PPM figures as a result. The only fix within the available set of resources was to start chopping off bits of the network.

Observing Thameslink so far (a whopping 3 days of it, admittedly), the trains that *are* running (still well in excess of 80% of GTR overall) are generally running well, without the snowballing of minor delays that Princess saw.

Nobody is pretending that the train crew cancellations aren't a problem, but it's not systematic - with time it'll get there, I'm convinced. It's just a matter of having the right resources in place in time - really just a single piece of a very complex jigsaw to 'fix'. Princess had multiple problems, and only one way to fix them all...

I think it is hard to tell yet. Because of the high number of cancellations in the peak (particularly of the Cambridge- Kings Cross service) welwyn North has not had 4Tph very often. This is one of the things I expected to show the fragile timetable as well as the fact that service is on the slow lines into London.

One thing I have noticed in my short time is they live to skip stop. Foxton, Meldreth, Shepreth, Knebworth and Welwyn North really suffering as a result. Cancel first train, skip stop the next and you have a 90 minute gap. A few I know that use Welwyn north are heading to WGC until it settles down as the inners are doing ok.

Then last night, you can’t make it up. Cancel both the 1722 and 1752 Cambridge service. Leave the commuters heading north from Hatfield and WGC no train for 90 mins. Decide this isn’t a good idea so stop the 1754 additionally. Then forget to tell everyone your cunning plan. Of it goes non-stop to Welwyn north. So the poor people wanting to get home watch it go past. I suspect many of them will be considering driving as commuting into Hatfield / WGC from the north is a nightmare at the moment. These services seem to be the first to get cancelled.

 

[Class2ldn]

Seems like they haven't trained all rostered drivers to East Grinstead either.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64104/2018/05/24/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O00385/2018/05/24/advanced

You're correct, they haven't

 

[Failed Unit]

I was surprised they ran the meet the manager session today. But one reason given for the mass cancellations on great northern was failure to get an agreement with ASLEF. Very naughty GN - some passengers may have believed that....

 

[Class2ldn]

An agreement for what? They've had years to plan training and they haven't bothered.
The way gtr are blaming driver's and the union for this mess is a joke.

 

[FOH]

I’ve just passed 12 coaches of 1970s vintage rolling stock at South Bermondsey running in the wrong direction. Presumably the cause of Southern’s ill health this morning

 

[87015]

I’ve just passed 12 coaches of 1970s vintage rolling stock at South Bermondsey running in the wrong direction. Presumably the cause of Southern’s ill health this morning

Yes it failed at 0620 and absolute GTR incompetence in trying to rescue it means chaos has reigned since.

 

[talldave]

Is the rear first class declassified on the north Kent route?

@TLRailUK state that the whole route, Rainham to Luton, is standard class only. However, post #377 above would imply that not everybody thinks that.

@SE_Railway state that the service is standard class between Dartford and London. [Without defining "London"]. And I really have no idea why they answered for another TOC's service anyway.

So take your pick!

Of course, if some real timetables existed, we could consult them perhaps? I know it's not a critical issue, but I just wanted to know, so that at some point in the future, when the planets align and GTR find a driver or two and I have the option to get on one, I can decide whether to sit in the front carriage or not. That TOCs are putting out conflicting information on such a basic question is depressing.

 

[DaveN]

The Rainham-Luton train is a funny thing: I can only compare the experience of this Greenwich line passenger with being given a breadmaker for your birthday. You were happy buying your bread from the shops, then there's this new thing that you aren't sure you actually need but apparently it'll be really brilliant. And it seems to raise more questions than answers, such as "who is it for?", why does a "stops-at-most-stops-in-south-London" train suddenly go semi-fast in north London? Why not just a boring St Albans-Dartford stopper, and let the Medways have their faster train back?

But I'm sure when (if?) it settles down it'll be okay. Wish there was a regular Kentish Town call, that actually would be really handy.

I think at one stage the idea was that these were going to be 12 car trains and so couldn't call at Kentish Town. "Semi-fast" may be what GTR call them but they are only a couple of minutes faster than the all stations between Radlett and London all day and in the evening peak they are no faster than the stoppers. The real reason is it means that the GTR PR people can include them in the stats for how many trains call at Harpenden...

 

[Downthelane]

I was surprised they ran the meet the manager session today. But one reason given for the mass cancellations on great northern was failure to get an agreement with ASLEF. Very naughty GN - some passengers may have believed that....

I suggested this on Tuesday and was criticised for doing so. So what exactly has or hasn't been agreed? Are GN stating fact of making invalid excuses?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Are there still any mainline SE services into Blackfriars?

There was previously at least one (ex Ramsgate) SE mainline service in the AM peak which was fast from Rochester - Blackfriars (bay platforms) via Bromley South.

Pretty sure there are also some Cannon St services which are non stop to and from Rochester (there certainly were up until last week and I can’t believe they’ve been removed).

If so, is that an alternative? (Depending on where in London you actually want to end up!)

There's a few actually. Including two from Maidstone, one from Dover and a stopper from Rochester.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The train (unit 700152) was terminated at Three Bridges due to a fault with a brake fault @ Horsham that couldn't be remedied. It was agreed for the service to continue to Three Bridges where it could be better dealt with.

What I haven't seen in any of this thread is mention of the 'Operational Incident' at Finsbury Park regarding this train. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O99188/2018/05/20/advanced . The driver stopped a 12-car train at the 8-car marker and released the doors. There were no reports of anyone falling from the train, the driver relocked the doors and moved to the correct stopping mark. Whether the train then had to await a relief driver to take the service forward or the offending driver was allowed to continue is not recorded.

I thought the ASDO beacons were supposed to stop any of that...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I note with interest that Southeastern are now operating some Catford Loop trains using Networker traction on behalf of the Thameslink crowd during the day and into Blackfriars Bay; so the Kentish Town bit is cancelled. Oh dear, oh dear!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

And interestingly because TL can't get their act together on the North Kent, SET are using an ECS from Slade Green to Strood and running it in passenger service so that Higham isn't left completely on an island during the morning...

 

[jellybaby]

Of course, if some real timetables existed

They do exist. I picked up a paper copy from my local station. It even has most of the trains that call at that station listed on it.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suggested this on Tuesday and was criticised for doing so. So what exactly has or hasn't been agreed? Are GN stating fact of making invalid excuses?

I think joining the dots. They can’t deliver the timetable without lots of overtime getting worked. GTR are late knowing exactly what they were asking of the drivers. The drivers planned other things as they didn’t know if they were needed. (How this is aslefs fault is beyond me).

If you know you may need 4 people to work 8 weeks ahead you will get more volunteers then asking the same question 2 weeks ahead.

 

[BluePenguin]

Are there still any mainline SE services into Blackfriars?

There was previously at least one (ex Ramsgate) SE mainline service in the AM peak which was fast from Rochester - Blackfriars (bay platforms) via Bromley South.

Pretty sure there are also some Cannon St services which are non stop to and from Rochester (there certainly were up until last week and I can’t believe they’ve been removed).

If so, is that an alternative? (Depending on where in London you actually want to end up!)

You are correct, although the fast services from Rochester now all call at London Bridge before Cannon Street. They are the 05:48, 06:41, 07:26, 07:52, 08:11 and 08:32 in the morning. In the evening they are the 16:30, 17:09, 17:30, 17:52, 18:11, 18:45 and 19:20. So not entirely removed

Yes there are a couple that still run in the peaks to Blackfriars. The fast one from Ramsgate you mentioned is in bold. Some of the others are:

05:50 from Ashford International
Calls at Lenham, Charing, Hollingbourne, Harrietsham, Hollingbourne, Bearstead, Maidstone East, West Malling, Borough Green & Wrotham, Otford, Swanley, St Mary Cray Bromley South, Elephant & Castle and Blackfriars.

05:46 from Broadstairs semi-fast
Calls at: Margate, Westgate on sea, Herne Bay, Chestfield & Swalecliffe, Whitstable, Faversham, Sittingbourne, Rainham, Gillingham, Chatham, Rochester, Bromley South, Elephant & Castle and Blackfriars.

Note: From Rainham this serice only takes only 1 hour 7 minutes to get to Blackfriars whilst the Thameslink service takes 1 hour 34-38 in comparison!

08:01 Beckenham Junction
Calls at Kent House, Penge East, Sydenham Hill, West Dulwich, Herne Hill, Loughborough Junction, Elephantand Castle and Blackfriars. Journey time 28 minutes

07:07 from Sole Street
Calls at: Meopham, Longfield, Farningham Road, Swanley, St Mary Cray, Bromley South, Denmark Hill and Blackfriars.

08:52 from Maidstone East fast service
Calls only at West Malling, Borough Green & Wrotham, Otford, Swanley, St Mary Cray, Bromley South, Elephant & Castle and Blackfriars. Journey time 1 hour 8 minutes!

08:59 from Beckenham Junction
Same as the 08:01

12:03 and 14:33 from Orpington
Normal service via Catford as if going to Victoria as far as Denmak Hill, then Blackfriars.

17:43 from Beckenham Junction
Calls only at Herne Hill and Blackfriars

 

[talldave]

They do exist. I picked up a paper copy from my local station. It even has most of the trains that call at that station listed on it.

Does it cover the Luton- Rainham services? And if so, what's the status on first class?

 

[Antman]

Buses are still in operation at Higham, wouldn't it be easier to stop HS trains there to fill any gaps?

 

[Antman]

Stopping extra long distance stuff at Stevenage and Peterborough is always going to be challenging from a capacity perspective, but I'm genuinely interested to see how many south of the river passengers switch to changing at Stevenage because of the easier 5 minute cross-platform connection. Or whether the 'terminal' mentality will prevail.

Even journey options from Cambridge via Stevenage to the North are now more commonly offered in planners, due to the extra train per hour and slick connection times offered.

Stevenage sounds the easier option but I guess they won't want to encourage too much interchanging there for fear of overcrowding the island platforms.

 

[jellybaby]

Does it cover the Luton- Rainham services?

Not the one I picked up but they are perhaps available from a ticket office on that route.

 

[bramling]

Because of the high number of cancellations in the peak (particularly of the Cambridge- Kings Cross service) welwyn North has not had 4Tph very often. This is one of the things I expected to show the fragile timetable as well as the fact that service is on the slow lines into London.

Whilst I can, sort of, understand why it's preferable for Welwyn North to receive calls off the fast trains as it avoids the double hit of having to negotiate the crossover from the down slow *and* the station call, I'm at a loss to understand how Welwyn North justifies 4tph in the peaks -- especially when very much busier stations like Hitchin and Letchworth have lost most of their non-stop services.

Having said that, it appears many of the faster services which do remain - including the fast Peterborough and Kings Lynn services - don't get good clear runs even when things are running to timetable. This will become more evident when there aren't so many cancellations. So perhaps there isn't such a benefit in having a non-stop service anyway.

One prediction - I bet the 17:24 KX-Royston will be a busy service, especially until the extra Brighton-Cambridge services start in December. This is one service which could benefit from being 3x387. They should pull one of the 3x387s off the Peterborough line and replace with 365s.

I'm surprised how many 8-car services remain in the shoulder peaks. Many of these use the main station at King's Cross, so there's no immediate limitation. The capacity uplift for Cambridge is surprisingly small IMO. The 387s aren't particularly intensively utilised in this timetable, although I suspect this may be because some will be earmarked for lengthening to Kings Lynn when the infrastructure allows. Assuming the Baldock/Royston services are here to stay, there's definitely some scope for some lengthening, perhaps with a few extra 365s in the mix somewhere.

 

[BluePenguin]

Does it cover the Luton- Rainham services? And if so, what's the status on first class?

Yes it should do although I can't find an officially published timetable on the Thameslink website. There doesn't appear to be one uploaded yet probably because it is in the process of being changed as it is not realistically possible to actually run day to day, as we have clearly seen this week.

However I did find this one on there which all amongst the Southern ones and seems to cover all current Rainham to Luton services: http://*******.com/pdfqidX

There is no mention of First Class anywhere so I am under the impression that they are all standard class only.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm surprised how many 8-car services remain in the shoulder peaks. Many of these use the main station at King's Cross, so there's no immediate limitation. The capacity uplift for Cambridge is surprisingly small IMO. The 387s aren't particularly intensively utilised in this timetable, although I suspect this may be because some will be earmarked for lengthening to Kings Lynn when the infrastructure allows. Assuming the Baldock/Royston services are here to stay, there's definitely some scope for some lengthening, perhaps with a few extra 365s in the mix somewhere.

The main capacity uplift for Cambridge will come when the second hourly Brighton service is introduced in December, uplifting the long-standing 3tph 'meaningful' service (2 fast, 1 semi) to 4tph for the first time. I think it'll take Cambridge folk a little while to adjust to the idea of going to/via St Pancras being a better journey opportunity in some cases - the half hourly non-stops are very well set in peoples' heads, especially as they continue to operate at about the same time they always have.

One of the big wins in this timetable is that the Ely/King's Lynns are near universally 39 minute turnrounds all day - a boost for resilience and the Kimg's Cross boarding experience - at times they are more akin to a VTEC service with the number of families and luggage boarding.

Otherwise, the number of 12 car fast workings is give or take the same (being, in my view, fairly well matched to demand anyway). I suspect you are right - a unit or two are being kept in 'reserve' for eventual 8-car operation to King's Lynn (increadingly needed in the peaks north of Cambridge)