Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Robert Symonds]

Any excuse just to unfairly bash Thameslink particularly the Medway lot who fail to see the long term benefits to having Thameslink in their area, its a better version of Crossrail that actually serves you, unlike your beloved Crossrail which only goes to Abbey Wood for the foreseeable future.

Really, I hope this is a joke.Its been a disaster for a station like Higham, and Medway never asked for this pointless service.The Charing cross should have been retained.Now we get a very slow and pointless service to Luton that tl can't run properly.

 

[Ianno87]

Really, I hope this is a joke.Its been a disaster for a station like Higham, and Medway never asked for this pointless service.The Charing cross should have been retained.Now we get a very slow and pointless service to Luton that tl can't run properly.

With the sole exception of Higham (usage c. 200k p.a.)...
-Gravensend, Strood and points eastwards keep fast services via HS1 (plus non-premium Victoria for Rochester etc, which were faster than Charing Cross anyway)
-Dartford to Gravesend and stations inbetween keep semi-fast Charing Cross services via Sidcup
-From December, Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green will be a single change onto Crossrail at Abbey Wood.

 

[talldave]

Any excuse just to unfairly bash Thameslink particularly the Medway lot who fail to see the long term benefits to having Thameslink in their area, its a better version of Crossrail that actually serves you, unlike your beloved Crossrail which only goes to Abbey Wood for the foreseeable future.

Just stop being selfish for a moment and see the benefits this brings to Inner SE London, they can now get to North London on one train, and I'm sorry but Medway has to make that sacrifice, ice said it before and ill say it again dig deeper in your pockets for HS1 if you want a fast service.

I think it's entirely fair to "bash" Thameslink for being utterly incompetent and failing to deliver the service they've spent months hyping up. I'm so lucky that I only have occasional trips into London, but I feel for the daily commuters whose lives have been made absolute hell by GTR's inability to run a train service.

 

[AM9]

... Now we get a very slow and pointless service to Luton that tl can't run properly.

I would put it as "Now we get a service to London Bridge and Blackfriars* and an option to travel on to Luton."

The teething problems that all Thameslink services are encountering will soon be irrelevant, - they are caused by lack of suitably trained drivers, not because Medway trains go to Luton. As Selkent Fellow and Ianno87 both say, there are other options both now and in December (Crossrail)
* There's no room to turn it at Blackfriars but that isn't your problem as you would just alight there and leave the railway to deal with the rolling stock.

 

[mmh]

Any excuse just to unfairly bash Thameslink particularly the Medway lot who fail to see the long term benefits to having Thameslink in their area, its a better version of Crossrail that actually serves you, unlike your beloved Crossrail which only goes to Abbey Wood for the foreseeable future.

Just stop being selfish for a moment and see the benefits this brings to Inner SE London, they can now get to North London on one train, and I'm sorry but Medway has to make that sacrifice, ice said it before and ill say it again dig deeper in your pockets for HS1 if you want a fast service.

Thameslink failed to see the long term benefits of running to the Medway either, to be fair. The Medway route was only added as an afterthought when a bunch of south central destinations got removed late in the whole "consultation" (hahaha) process in a "these 200 trains an hour need to go somewhere" panic.

 

[NorthKent1989]

With the sole exception of Higham (usage c. 200k p.a.)...
-Gravensend, Strood and points eastwards keep fast services via HS1 (plus non-premium Victoria for Rochester etc, which were faster than Charing Cross anyway)
-Dartford to Gravesend and stations inbetween keep semi-fast Charing Cross services via Sidcup
-From December, Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green will be a single change onto Crossrail at Abbey Wood.

The Woolwich semi fasts we’re useful because you could get to those TfL connections quicker, Medway is too far out for it to have an all stops service

 

[AM9]

Thameslink failed to see the long term benefits of running to the Medway either, to be fair. The Medway route was only added as an afterthought when a bunch of south central destinations got removed late in the whole "consultation" (hahaha) process in a "these 200 trains an hour need to go somewhere" panic.

Where did you get "these 200 trains an hour ...." from. Do you have a source please?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I would put it as "Now we get a service to London Bridge and Blackfriars* and an option to travel on to Luton."

The teething problems that all Thameslink services are encountering will soon be irrelevant, - they are caused by lack of suitably trained drivers, not because Medway trains go to Luton. As Selkent Fellow and Ianno87 both say, there are other options both now and in December (Crossrail)
* There's no room to turn it at Blackfriars but that isn't your problem as you would just alight there and leave the railway to deal with the rolling stock.

I don’t think these “teething problems” will simply go away soon, it’s not as simple as that the timetable isn’t workable at all.

And try telling the folks down in Higham that the “teething” will be irrelevant.

Thameslink failed to see the long term benefits of running to the Medway either, to be fair. The Medway route was only added as an afterthought when a bunch of south central destinations got removed late in the whole "consultation" (hahaha) process in a "these 200 trains an hour need to go somewhere" panic.

I completely agree, Thameslink ditched all plans to run services to anywhere near the Dartford routes years ago because even back then they said it would be unworkable, though they did keep the possibility of running peak services via Sidcup where there are fewer conflicting moves to worry about about.

Why didn’t they run this service to Epsom via West Croydon is beyond me??

 

[NorthKent1989]

Where did you get "these 200 trains an hour ...." from. Do you have a source please?

I think the poster was joking.......

 

[bramling]

The teething problems that all Thameslink services are encountering will soon be irrelevant, - they are caused by lack of suitably trained drivers, not because Medway trains go to Luton.

The driver issue will eventually be resolved, but a legacy of unreliability will still be left. Look at today’s 9S12 for a typical example.

 

[mmh]

Where did you get "these 200 trains an hour ...." from. Do you have a source please?

It was hyperbole taking the mickey out of the 28/24/20/18 etc trains an hour through the core.

 

[mmh]

The driver issue will eventually be resolved, but a legacy of unreliability will still be left. Look at today’s 9S12 for a typical example.

And the trashing of times and direct journeys for non to/from London journeys which had been possible for decades. Nobody would be complaining about a timetable which gave them new routes if it wasn't at the expense of the routes they already had. Yes, you can't please everyone, but this really doesn't seem to be pleasing many people at all.

 

[Spamcan81]

It was a 12-car 365 so not sure what the dispatch arrangements are at Arlesey (I seem to remember issues with 12-car trains there recently).

It appeared to be a cock up rather than driver refusal. The departure boards and NRE said it was calling at Arlesey. There are only platforms on the slow lines at Arlesey but we were on the fast at Stevenage. I’m not sure where you can cross over to the slows between Stevenage and Arlesey.

There is a fast to slow cross over as you approach Hitchin.

 

[mmh]

I don’t think these “teething problems” will simply go away soon, it’s not as simple as that the timetable isn’t workable at all.

And try telling the folks down in Higham that the “teething” will be irrelevant.



I completely agree, Thameslink ditched all plans to run services to anywhere near the Dartford routes years ago because even back then they said it would be unworkable, though they did keep the possibility of running peak services via Sidcup where there are fewer conflicting moves to worry about about.

Why didn’t they run this service to Epsom via West Croydon is beyond me??

Good question - nobody could sensibly complain about that, rolling stock aside, as it'd have exactly the same calling pattern as the current Southern service. Genuinely giving a new journey opportunity!

Although the new Epsom to London Bridge service has shown something a little odd in the timetable. Previously to this timetable, all up trains from the West Croydon direction would be routed onto the up fast just south of Norwood Junction, now they are all scheduled to be routed slow into Norwood Junction and cross over to the fast afterwards. In the past the slow
line platform was only used for fast services if the fast platform was blocked (which was scheduled a few times in the peaks due to trains coming from ECR / WCY at near identical times)

I wonder if this is for reliability for some reason. On the ground to the passenger, it's just a pain though, no longer is there a "slow" and "fast" platform.

Given the uneven times between these trains and the likelihood of them being late it results in more transfer between platforms than is necessary. Although that seems to have been a goal of the new timetable, pointlessly increasing interchange at multiple completely unsuitable places.

 

[AM9]

It was hyperbole taking the mickey out of the 28/24/20/18 etc trains an hour through the core.

Ah, so you forgot to add an emoticon to differentiate it from a lie (or maybe a 'fact').

 

[the Rat]

Ah, so you forgot to add an emoticon to differentiate it from a lie (or maybe a 'fact').

Jeez, how did we ever understand language before we had smiley faces to help us?!! I think it was pretty obvious what was meant unless, perhaps, you find yourself on the Autistic spectrum...

 

[Chris999999]

Ah, so you forgot to add an emoticon to differentiate it from a lie (or maybe a 'fact').

So you are unable to recognise cynicism without a little picture?

 

[Robert Symonds]

With the sole exception of Higham (usage c. 200k p.a.)...
-Gravensend, Strood and points eastwards keep fast services via HS1 (plus non-premium Victoria for Rochester etc, which were faster than Charing Cross anyway)
-Dartford to Gravesend and stations inbetween keep semi-fast Charing Cross services via Sidcup
-From December, Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green will be a single change onto Crossrail at Abbey Wood.

As far as Medway is concerned I totally agree they have the choice of Hs1 and Victoria.If I still lived in Medway I would swallow the cost and use high-speed.Its a no brainer as far as time is concerned, but that's not my argument. The point is a popular service going to Charing Cross has been replaced with a plodding pointless service to Luton.As for getting to stations like Blackfriars, this would have been quicker under the Charing Cross service.I know and understand some posters disagree, however the whole thing seems completely ridiculous to me.

 

[NorthKent1989]

As far as Medway is concerned I totally agree they have the choice of Hs1 and Victoria.If I still lived in Medway I would swallow the cost and use high-speed.Its a no brainer as far as time is concerned, but that's not my argument. The point is a popular service going to Charing Cross has been replaced with a plodding pointless service to Luton.As for getting to stations like Blackfriars, this would have been quicker under the Charing Cross service.I know and understand some posters disagree, however the whole thing seems completely ridiculous to me.

HS1 is good but only really if you need to commute to somewhere near St. Pancras, other than that it is an awkward interchange if you need the West End, Charing Cross is literally the heart of the West End.

The Luton service is pointless because no one wanted it, and as for airport choices (since people keep reiterating that we now have a direct service to Luton Airport) Gatwick is much closer and you don’t have to necessarily go through central London, head to Strood get a Tonbridge train change for a Redhill train and then change for Gatwick, yes there’s lots of swapping and changing but it’s still quicker, and after that from 2018 Heathrow will be two train journeys from Medway.

And as for Blackfriars again people keep telling us the Medway and SE London have gained that as a terminus but in truth it’s down road from Cannon Street.

It is my hope that the Thameslink Medway route will be withdrawn or cut back to Dartford at least.

 

[Class465fan]

Just checked the train departures from Abbey wood and it appears that thameslink is not running its new "sparkling" rainham service at the moment.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Just checked the train departures from Abbey wood and it appears that thameslink is not running its new "sparkling" rainham service at the moment.

And yet we keep being told to be patient or grateful for this? Two people I know have quit their jobs because of either increased journey times or trains simply aren’t running, I'm thinking of quitting my job as it’s getting harder and harder for me to commute, it’s amazing how many people relied on the Woolwich semi fast service.

 

[mmh]

The Luton service is pointless because no one wanted it, and as for airport choices (since people keep reiterating that we now have a direct service to Luton Airport) Gatwick is much closer and you don’t have to necessarily go through central London, head to Strood get a Tonbridge train change for a Redhill train and then change for Gatwick, yes there’s lots of swapping and changing but it’s still quicker, and after that from 2018 Heathrow will be two train journeys from Medway.

Plus if you did want to go to Luton Airport you could have got the Charing Cross service and had an easy change at London Bridge. Not having to use the Underground to cross central London is a benefit of Thameslink, but that would have been the case anyway without it (pretending) to serve everywhere with a direct service.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Plus if you did want to go to Luton Airport you could have got the Charing Cross service and had an easy change at London Bridge. Not having to use the Underground to cross central London is a benefit of Thameslink, but that would have been the case anyway without it (pretending) to serve everywhere with a direct service.

Exactly

The only SE lines Thameslink should’ve taken over are the lines from E&C, having them run through to London Bridge makes no sense really.

 

[MML]

Southbound Express service on-time this morning, fast with seats available. Arrived on-time too. 10/10.
This evening 3 Bedford and one Peterborough cancelled. 20 minute wait. 5/10. Not sure why there is a shortage on this route as Thameslink services have been operating between Bedford and Brighton for some time.

 

[jon0844]

There's a lot of defensive talk in this thread saying that people shouldn't expect something so new to work straight out of the box. Well, why not? It should work straight out of the box if it's been designed properly. But it hasn't, has it. GTR has had a very long time to plan this and now we hear that they 1) don't have enough drivers and 2) of the ones they do have, many are not yet route-trained. This is a total and complete fundamental failure to ensure the basics that would underpin the programme. And the blame lies squarely at the door of GTR, it has nothing to do with unions or rostering (disclaimer: I neither work on the railways, for the unions or any other bureau which may be associated with this mismanagement). It beggars belief that simple commuters such as myself could see exactly what was going to happen from miles off and yet GTR just goes wading in expecting everything to be alright, defying all logic - either that or they must believe some in kind of magic. To invoke the old English idiom; fail to prepare - prepare to fail. I would suggest that this so-called "box" should have remained tightly sealed until such time as recruitment and training was at a sensible level.

IF it's true concerns were raised with the DfT a number of years ago AND that GTR asked to defer the new timetable until December, so as to have fully trained drivers, then where does the fault lie then?

I still don't agree that this is any sign of whether the Thameslink project will work. Now it's a case of a timetable that can't work due to logistical issues, not issues of disruption caused by the general public and infrastructure issues and incidents. That's still to come because we're yet (TTBOMK) have a major signalling failure, wires down or any one unders.

 

[the Rat]

Agreed that we all know what a complete shower the DfT are and they certainly have a lot to answer for, but that does absolve GTR from their failure to recruit and train the requisite number of drivers to make the timetable work. They've had YEARS!

First impressions do count and the dismal performance so far of this timetable to deliver, whatever the reasons, surely mean this particular attempt is doomed, Captain Mainwaring, doomed..."stop rolling your eyes, Frasier!", etc..

 

[Verulamius]

Network Rail timetable planning department according to Grayling?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nt_data/file/712161/sos-letter-to-mps-gtr.pdf

 

[the Rat]

The words 'stable door' and 'horse' come to mind with regard to the gradual timetable changes he refers to.

 

[bramling]

IF it's true concerns were raised with the DfT a number of years ago AND that GTR asked to defer the new timetable until December, so as to have fully trained drivers, then where does the fault lie then?

I still don't agree that this is any sign of whether the Thameslink project will work. Now it's a case of a timetable that can't work due to logistical issues, not issues of disruption caused by the general public and infrastructure issues and incidents. That's still to come because we're yet (TTBOMK) have a major signalling failure, wires down or any one unders.

A look at RTTT shows trips where time has been lost coming up from Brighton or Horsham, which has then continued through the GN side and resulted in (1) reactionary delays to other services, and (2) the train’s next service being delayed. There may well also be a (3) which is the driver’s next service being delayed too. This does not bode well - especially with the railway being emptier than planned due to all the cancellations, and with the most disruptive service (the Cambridge slows) not yet having gone over to Thameslink.

What the driver issues has done is demonstrated to people what they can expect from now on under the failing plans. Lengthy waits on crowded core platforms, recovery measures which mean when they do finally get on a train they get turfed off somewhere, and severe unpredictability particularly for local journeys (eg Hitchin to Arlesey) or travelling to/from stations with only a 2tph service. Strangely enough people don’t seem to happy about all this having been used to a pretty predictable service, albeit one vulnerable when things do go wrong. The very last thing GN needed was increasing the risk of things going wrong - we now have about 75 miles extra risk of that!

 

[jon0844]

The words 'stable door' and 'horse' come to mind with regard to the gradual timetable changes he refers to.

If logistically it had to be everything or nothing then the only logical move IMO was to defer the introduction for 6 months. Yes, it would have looked bad (all those years, and still delayed) but considerably less bad than what happened.

Now it's obviously a case of when will things be fixed? How long until there are enough drivers route trained so there can be more resilience? Half term does mean a lot fewer passengers, but next week? Three weeks may be nothing in terms of how long is needed, but passengers will think three weeks is ample to fix things.