Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[JonathanH]

I have noticed two issues with the EG and GTW services you mention when coming home from school that have me really cheesed off.

Sometimes part of my journey home involves me changing at Norwood Junction. I'll then usually get a train to East Croydon to catch a connection. The Gatwick Airport trains from Norwood run at 02 and 32 past the hour, except for when I'm there for some reason. I get to Norwood long after the 15:32 has departed, but for some reason there is no 16:02 departure, the next one is at 16:32! This isn't a cancellation, it'a just a service doesn't exist at that time. I then have to get the 16:09 Coulsdon Town service which is of little use to me as it means i just miss my connection at East Croydon and then have a 25 minute wait. Why doesn't this service run? Is it an amendment due to the failure of the new timetable, or has that always been the case since the timetable started?

The second thing is rush hour East Grinstead services from London Bridge. I've been at East Croydon whilst noticing this. Now obviously the usual EG departures are XX10, XX40 from Victoria. Previously in the evening peak this was supplemented by a 1730, a 1758, an 1830 and a 1900 (or somewhere around that time). Since the timetable change these extra services now start earlier, the first one being 1655 and then 1725, then 1755, however there is no 1825, which is more or less at the height of the peak. The next one is 1855. Is this a similar subtle amendment that could have a big effect on someone's commute?

This is all not to mention the 2 hour gap between thameslink trains leaving Brighton halfway through the day.

A further annoyance is at stations on the line between Carshalton and Mitcham Eastfields. There are 4 stopping trains per hour but they are separated by an infuriatingly unfair 4/26/4/26 minute gap. Whilst there has been no real service reduction it does mean that the frequency of stopping trains has effectively been cut to 2tph. However this is just a general fault I see with the timetable itself rather than the effects of it.

There is meant to be a 1602 from Norwood Junction to East Croydon but it is a 'planned' cancellation
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64470/2018/07/02/advanced

Similarly the 1825 from East Croydon to East Grinstead is a 'planned' cancellation
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64106/2018/07/02/advanced

In the same way, there are many planned cancellations on all routes - this is what leads to two hour gaps out of Brighton.

On the spacing of East Grinstead trains at East Croydon, it looks like xx10 for the Victoria and xx25 for the Thameslink trains is a good outcome with the Thameslink train following the Uckfield service, it is unfortunate that they can't get all the times to be perfectly spaced on every route.

With the way in which the Thameslink services have to fit in with other operators (including Great Northrn and Southern), it is difficult to see how you can cut Thameslink services and remain with a balanced timetable. For example, at Redhill, the two Thameslink service groups are Gatwick to Bedford and Horsham to Peterborough - you can't simply make one of these work by cutting out the other because different drivers are involved - there has been local suggestion about 2tph from Thameslink to Redhill running but this could easily end up being two trains running 10 minutes apart and nothing else in the hour.

 

[southern442]

There is meant to be a 1602 from Norwood Junction to East Croydon but it is a 'planned' cancellation
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64470/2018/07/02/advanced

Similarly the 1825 from East Croydon to East Grinstead is a 'planned' cancellation
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64106/2018/07/02/advanced

In the same way, there are many planned cancellations on all routes - this is what leads to two hour gaps out of Brighton.

Thank you for this, makes sense now.

On a more positive note, some places seem to be coping well with the new timetable. The Wallington line for example regularly sees trains actually departing 30 seconds before scheduled time like they are meant to! Not a huge fan of the 15/10/5/15/10/5 spacing though, but in some locations it's far worse.

 

[43055]

To be fair the service at East Mids Parkway has always been like that, so it's a bit unfair blaming that on TL. You could argue an opportunity to try and solve that has been missed though.

I know that EMD has always been uneven but TL has made is somewhat worse as the old times from STP was xx15 and xx26 in which if you aimed for the 15 and miss it you could have a chance to get the 26. Now there is only 3 minuets between the two at xx31 and xx34. Unfortunately I can't suggest anything to resolve this as I think it is to do with connections to both Derby, Sheffield and Nottingham from EMD.

 

[Failed Unit]

OLR for GTR?

I wish it was true. But I just can’t see it. They have gone from one shambles to another.

Southern? Not sure if this is as bad as Thameslink.

As others say things are deteriorating if anything last week.

They didn’t cover themselves in glory on GN. Driver shortages have obliterated weekend services for years.

I guess it is free points but the government likes GTR being the shield on their part of this.

 

[bramling]

the government likes GTR being the shield on their part of this.

Nail hit firmly on head.

And unfortunately this is the big problem at the centre of all this, the big piece of brown stuff that no matter how many times anyone tries to flush it down the toilet it keeps resurfacing. It’s the DFTs messup, and until there’s some level of acceptance from them that they have got this very badly wrong, I can’t see things moving forward.

GTR is rubbish as well, but they were probably in an impossible position, albeit one they have made even worse.

 

[southern442]

Nail hit firmly on head.

And unfortunately this is the big problem at the centre of all this, the big piece of brown stuff that no matter how many times anyone tries to flush it down the toilet it keeps resurfacing. It’s the DFTs messup, and until there’s some level of acceptance from them that they have got this very badly wrong, I can’t see things moving forward.

GTR is rubbish as well, but they were probably in an impossible position, albeit one they have made even worse.

I'm not challenging you or anything, this question comes from ignorance on my part and a gap in my own knowledge but what bits specifically aare we blaming on the DfT and what is GTR's fault?

 

[bramling]

I'm not challenging you or anything, this question comes from ignorance on my part and a gap in my own knowledge but what bits specifically aare we blaming on the DfT and what is GTR's fault?

At the end of the day it’s DFT’s project. They’re the sponsor, and it’s they who have specified things like the services to be operated, the stations to be served, and of course the rolling stock. They chose to amalgamate four different service groups (all of which have been stand-alone franchises at various times) into one mega-franchise, and it’s they who selected Govia. It’s they who have failed to plan something which was able to be smoothly and seamlessly introduced, and they who have clearly totally failed to monitor progress and make a correct decision as to whether the project was in a state where it could reliably go live, and perhaps they who have failed to identify “red flags” which should surely have cropped up over the last year or two. Ultimately, and arguably, it is they who have designed, specified, tried and failed to implement something which many have seen as destined for failure, for various reasons which I won’t repeat here, but which boil down to trying to impose something on an infrastructure which isn’t capable of operating the planned service robustly. *If* some of the timetabling issues are down to Network Rail, then again that ultimately boils down to the DFT, and again whether they should have gone live when they did.

As for GTR, they come over as a sloppy operator. Things went downhill almost from the day they took over. Their employee relations seems to be dire, and most concerningly their management seems completely disconnected from reality, it’s astounding that they predicted “minimal impact” a day or two before the launch day, or that things would settle down “quickly”. Post launch their handling of the situation has again been poor, although given the scale of the shambles it’s hard to say whether another operator may have done better - but again the quality of the communications coming out from senior level has been absolutely dire, again pointing to an organisation where the top simply don’t have a grip on what’s going on under their feet. I suspect there’s a lot more to come out over time as to whether GTR did raise red flags in the period leading up to launch day, and without knowing exactly what did and didn’t happen it’s hard to judge further - this will be something which will be very interesting to hear about if and when it does come out in the wash!

 

[Taunton]

I see that GTR are still whinging on (BBC article above) about having "rescheduled every train in its franchise". So what? Whenever an even interval service moves to new clockface times every train is rescheduled. That's pretty normal stuff.

 

[Abpj17]

I see that GTR are still whinging on (BBC article above) about having "rescheduled every train in its franchise". So what? Whenever an even interval service moves to new clockface times every train is rescheduled. That's pretty normal stuff.

But it wasn't an even internal service before and it's not a clockface timetable after. GTR runs 3600 trains per day and provides nearly 25% of UK rail journeys (allegedly) so it's a rather bigger challenge than most operators. Pretty much all their services have to deal with the chaos of London commuter journeys.

It's not an easy franchise. But given that, what is amazing is that NR didn't seem to keep timetable experts, and it's not clear that GTR actually understand the scale and complexity of the service they provide (or if they are, they aren't up to delivering it)

 

[bramling]

But it wasn't an even internal service before and it's not a clockface timetable after. GTR runs 3600 trains per day and provides nearly 25% of UK rail journeys (allegedly) so it's a rather bigger challenge than most operators. Pretty much all their services have to deal with the chaos of London commuter journeys.

It's not an easy franchise. But given that, what is amazing is that NR didn't seem to keep timetable experts, and it's not clear that GTR actually understand the scale and complexity of the service they provide (or if they are, they aren't up to delivering it)

I find it astounding that anyone thought they could simply double the length of entire routes without the crews having the route knowledge in advance. One would have expected most crews to have it by launch day, with only a few stragglers (long term sicknesses etc) outstanding. This risk should have been identified and foreseen long ago. Likewise reliability issues from through running seem to have been put into the same “it will be okay” box. Unfortunately reality is proving rather different.

Too much and too much in a small space of time - a predictable shambles.

 

[Downthelane]

No WGC or HAT trains to KGX between 6.50 and 8.02?

We seem to have hit the lowest of the low now.

 

[Failed Unit]

No WGC or HAT trains to KGX between 6.50 and 8.02?

We seem to have hit the lowest of the low now.

If you look at the live departures like we are supposed to it looks like don’t bother trying to travel this morning. The Moorgates are all “delayed”

 

[OwenB]

If you look at the live departures like we are supposed to it looks like don’t bother trying to travel this morning. The Moorgates are all “delayed”

Is there a problem with the Moorgate line? It's usually a passable service when there are cancellations into KGX.

 

[Hadders]

Another low this morning.

The 0717 12 car from Stevenage is full and standing from Stevenage.

No problem, I’ll get the 0720 which was arriving at the same time - a 4-car 365!!!

Not seen a 4-car train in the peak on GN for years.

In other news the customer information screen is displaying info on 1st class declassification.

 

[Kanrakuq]

The 0712 from Arlesey to Kings Cross listed as on time with a platform of "UFL." Cue people asking on Twitter if it will stop. "Yes, on time and will stop", someone from TL says. Odd since that sounds suspiciously like the up fast, and open train maps shows it on that line too. Funnily enough, it drives straight past Arlesey on the UFL. If only TL's Twitter team had had some information available to tell them that would happen ...

 

[Failed Unit]

Is there a problem with the Moorgate line? It's usually a passable service when there are cancellations into KGX.

I suspect so but not that they have said.

My original post may have sounded patronising it wasn’t meant to be. It was more that you can’t trust the live departures as they have a habit of changing between leaving the house and arriving at the station as services are cancelled/ removed / added on the fly.

The Moorgates are probably a real mess as they are not getting through Finsbury Park heading north.

Week 7. Still getting worse.

 

[OwenB]

I suspect so but not that they have said.

My original post may have sounded patronising it wasn’t meant to be. It was more that you can’t trust the live departures as they have a habit of changing between leaving the house and arriving at the station as services are cancelled/ removed / added on the fly.

The Moorgates are probably a real mess as they are not getting through Finsbury Park heading north.

Week 7. Still getting worse.

Week 7. Gosh, that's bad. That's 6 weeks already getting up an hour earlier than I used to to make sure I get into work on time.

 

[Downthelane]

No trains from HAT with screens not reflecting what Live Departures is saying. Utter confusion and anger growing.

Shut the door on the way out Grant....

 

[Downthelane]

Is there a problem with the Moorgate line? It's usually a passable service when there are cancellations into KGX.

Multiple cancellations and then how do you get to KGX above ground from Finsbury Park?

I'd rather not take the tube when I pay for a first class Gold Card.

 

[OwenB]

Multiple cancellations and then how do you get to KGX above ground from Finsbury Park?

I'd rather not take the tube when I pay for a first class Gold Card.

You can use a London Terminals ticket from FPK to KGX without any ticket acceptance being in place.

 

[Downthelane]

On what services? Few trains run FPK to KGX.

 

[OwenB]

On what services? Few trains run FPK to KGX.

Sorry, meant underground - Piccadilly and Victoria lines

 

[Hadders]

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross St Pancras/Moorgate is an inter-available Route so you may take the Underground at any time, no need to wait for disruption.

I realise there isn’t 1st class on the underground but neither do GTR have 1st class in the peaks at the moment.

 

[Downthelane]

Why would I want to use a tube line when I pay for an overground service?

Anyway Hatfield and WGC are in complete meltdown still.

Only once London bound Service in last 90 minutes.

And with no explanation of why.

 

[Hadders]

It depends on how urgently you need to get to your destination.

 

[Downthelane]

Finsbury Park - Kings Cross St Pancras/Moorgate is an inter-available Route so you may take the Underground at any time, no need to wait for disruption.

I realise there isn’t 1st class on the underground but neither do GTR have 1st class in the peaks at the moment.

A 313 and a Tube?

Is this the future?

Bye bye Grant, your hollow promises are par for the course.

 

[Downthelane]

It depends on how urgently you need to get to your destination.

Nothing is that important that taking a 313 is necessary. I'd rather not have to sit that close to someone I don't know.

 

[Failed Unit]

Nothing is that important that taking a 313 is necessary. I'd rather not have to sit that close to someone I don't know.

For interest when was the last time your were genuinely able to take advantage of your first class entitlement? I know they are all declassified now anyway. But for weeks for me it appears the only ones running are the x02 and x32 which don’t advertise 1st.

If the stop anything additional it is full anyway.

Guess you are getting the 1st element of your season ticket refunded since the timetable change.

But I still get the impression GTR don’t have a clue what can run until the drivers book on.

 

[OwenB]

Why would I want to use a tube line when I pay for an overground service?

Anyway Hatfield and WGC are in complete meltdown still.

Only once London bound Service in last 90 minutes.

And with no explanation of why.

Oh, my mistake for trying to help.

 

[jon0844]

Is the above some sort of joke? There's chaos on the trains and the most important thing is getting a direct train that has first class? What's the priority? Sitting in first class, or getting to where you need to be?

Currently the reliable way (most of the time) is to give up on King's Cross trains and take a stopper. Then use the tube or maybe even walk or use a bus depending on where you want to actually go.

With no first class in the peak now, does that mean waiting until after 0930 to travel? Seems like a cut off your lose to spite your face thing going on here.

Of course the service is bad but everyone has likely worked out a way to travel to minimise the problems by now?