Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Failed Unit]

In case people havent noticed today is 1st November.

A long time after GTR got the timetable from Network Rail which they constantly tell people is the only reason the service collapsed.

At WGC you could think it was 1st June.

0652 cancelled- train failure (can’t be true 700s can’t fail)
0752 Cancelled - no crew
0832 Cancelled (was 0652)
0822 Cancelled - no Crew.

GTR think the current level of service is acceptable and are saying how wonderful they are. I beg to differ. How long can the peddle the this is all network rails fail like and when will the start accepting the are incapable of running this management contract?

 

[telstarbox]

I noticed on Sunday that TL services were diverted via Blackheath and Lewisham - is that the first time those stations have been served by a cross-Thames service?

 

[ComUtoR]

It's happened before.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I noticed on Sunday that TL services were diverted via Blackheath and Lewisham - is that the first time those stations have been served by a cross-Thames service?

It did happen earlier this year but it went via Blackfriars also, personally I think if Thameslink is going to be here permanently the Lewisham route would be a better route long term.

 

[telstarbox]

From a selfish point of view that would suit me, but it means that Deptford/Greenwich/Maze Hill/Westcombe Park get a service to somewhere other than Cannon Street, which is particularly useful at the weekend. Lewisham and Blackheath already have trains to three different terminals.

 

[NorthKent1989]

From a selfish point of view that would suit me, but it means that Deptford/Greenwich/Maze Hill/Westcombe Park get a service to somewhere other than Cannon Street, which is particularly useful at the weekend. Lewisham and Blackheath already have trains to three different terminals.

Yeah that is the downside, but in truth there really isn’t much difference between Cannon Street and Blackfriars since they’re down the road from each other they’re still very much city of London terminus also at the moment the Thameslink is still 1tph :-/ so in essence the Greenwich branch stations still only get one London terminal option bit rubbish really.

 

[sefton]

Apparently diagrams now have drivers, who sign on at King's Cross first, scheduled to travel pass on the last/latest possible train to Finsbury Park (hence the risk of becoming stuck behind the train you're taking over) rather that one service before (which would mean a wait, and therefore cost the company money).

Some drivers will use the tube to reduce the risk. Some won't. They're not required to use the tube and indeed have had to get TfL to rather reluctantly let them travel free if they do so.

Please explain further; Why are the drivers reluctant to use the tube and why do they need TFL to allow them to travel for free.

Either GTR has some arrangement with TFL to allow the drivers to travel, so they are not travelling for "free" but under an agreement and the drivers should not have the option of whether to use the tube or not, or GTR is asking their employees to try to blag a free ride which they know they are not entitled to.

If it is the latter, is GTR so mean and stupid that it is not prepared to come to an arrangement with TFL, financial or otherwise, but is risking its trains being delayed and is actively inciting its employees to commit a criminal act.

 

[Aictos]

Under First Capital Connect, an arrangement was introduced whereas their employees could apply for a PTAC which basically gave them a discount of up to 80% (I'm not sure on the theshold but it was above 50%) on National Rail, LUL and DLR services within the London zones which when applied to a Oyster card actually gave some damn good discounts however it wasn't valid on buses or river services.

This to the best of my knowledge was carried over by GTR with it being extended to former Southern and Gatwick Express colleagues so yes there is a arrangement in place which offers discounted travel both on duty, commuting and for leisure purposes.

There isn't as far as I am aware any "free" travel apart from on sister TOCs for example GN staff having free travel with SN etc which is fine south of the river but for Tube travel doesn't really help.

As to the diagrams, have they been raised as a issue as it seems unacceptable to put traincrew in such a position that they risk being out of position so their train ends up being delayed waiting a driver especially as there are more then enough services between St Pancras/Kings Cross and Finsbury Park for a driver to be in position on time more so if they actually use the Tube.

 

[sefton]

So it is a situation of GTR risking its trains being delayed and inciting its employees to commit a criminal act because it is to mean or stupid to come to an arrangement with TFL.

 

[jon0844]

There's apparently an unofficial 'arrangement' to pass drivers FOC on the tube to Finsbury Park, but officially staff either get the 75% discount with their PTAC ID and Oyster, or pay normally.

If TfL staff allow travel then it isn't a criminal act.

You'd think GTR might consider giving drivers prepaid Oyster cards as another solution, but some drivers won't use the tube regardless of cost.

 

[Warrior2852]

I am relatively new to the forum, and I would rather not look through all 172 pages to see if this question has already been answered so I apologise if it already has, but are Sutton Loop services now permanently only going as far as St Albans instead of Luton (both airport and town)? If so, how would one now get to Luton from say Wimbledon?

 

[greyman42]

You'd think GTR might consider giving drivers prepaid Oyster cards as another solution, but some drivers won't use the tube regardless of cost.

Why not. Is there some history here?

 

[ComUtoR]

So it is a situation of GTR risking its trains being delayed and inciting its employees to commit a criminal act because it is to mean or stupid to come to an arrangement with TFL.

Why do they need to come to an arrangement with TfL ? That is an additional cost that they do not need to make. They have trains and Drivers need to be on those trains. It's free for them to pass by train.

What if this is down to TfL charging an extortionate fee ?

 

[swt_passenger]

I am relatively new to the forum, and I would rather not look through all 172 pages to see if this question has already been answered so I apologise if it already has, but are Sutton Loop services now permanently only going as far as St Albans instead of Luton (both airport and town)?

Yes, that looks as if it was changed around 2017, one of the many consultations simplified some of the peak flow extensions and one outcome was that all four Sutton Loop services had the same northern end point, ie St Albans.

 

[Warrior2852]

Yes, that looks as if it was changed around 2017, one of the many consultations simplified some of the peak flow extensions and one outcome was that all four Sutton Loop services had the same northern end point, ie St Albans.

So how would one get to Luton from say Wimbledon now?

 

[bramling]

Why do they need to come to an arrangement with TfL ? That is an additional cost that they do not need to make. They have trains and Drivers need to be on those trains. It's free for them to pass by train.

What if this is down to TfL charging an extortionate fee ?

I suspect the issue is that there are still some pretty hefty gaps in the GTR service from King’s Cross or St Pancras to Finsbury Park - 45 minutes the other evening for example. By contrast on the Victoria Line there will be a train turn up within a minute at pretty much any time of day, and a journey time of only 5 minutes. There is one big snag though, which is if there is any kind of delay the driver can’t communicate with anyone to advise.

 

[swt_passenger]

So how would one get to Luton from say Wimbledon now?

Change somewhere?

 

[bramling]

Change somewhere?

Wouldn’t changing at Blackfriars offer a slightly quicker journey anyway? As most Bedford trains overtake a Sutton service somewhere between Radlett and West Hampstead.

For those wanting pick of the seats a change at St Albans is still
feasible too.

 

[ComUtoR]

Passing via the tube is a total drama and has issues too. There is also an advantage to having Drivers pass on the train too.

The one thing I won't do is pay.

 

[sprunt]

Why do they need to come to an arrangement with TfL ? That is an additional cost that they do not need to make. They have trains and Drivers need to be on those trains. It's free for them to pass by train.

Reading this thread though, there seems to be a risk that if a driver is travelling between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park on a train, that train may get stuck behind the train they're supposed to be driving but can't go anywhere because the driver is on a train stuck behind it? Someone has to come up with a better idea than that, surely?

What if this is down to TfL charging an extortionate fee ?

Why would they charge any more than the fare?

 

[ComUtoR]

Reading this thread though, there seems to be a risk that if a driver is travelling between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park on a train, that train may get stuck behind the train they're supposed to be driving but can't go anywhere because the driver is on a train stuck behind it?

There is always a risk whichever way you pass. There is a risk that the tube is closed, delayed, disrupted, etc etc. It's also unproductive time. When you have to pass via the tube you need to factor in marginal time allowances.

Someone has to come up with a better idea than that, surely?

It's a circular argument. You get stuck on the train so there is a complaint that they should use the tube. You get stuck on the tube and then there are complaints that they should use their own trains. You can't win either way.

Passing on trains takes place all over the network and some TOCs use the tube, some don't. GTR are notorious for the use of Taxis and even they have their own specific problems.

Diagramming is an unenviable task. The simplest solution is never to pass but I can guarantee that has numerous issues too.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

There's apparently an unofficial 'arrangement' to pass drivers FOC on the tube to Finsbury Park, but officially staff either get the 75% discount with their PTAC ID and Oyster, or pay normally.

If TfL staff allow travel then it isn't a criminal act.

You'd think GTR might consider giving drivers prepaid Oyster cards as another solution, but some drivers won't use the tube regardless of cost.

or even a better more radical solution would be to schedule train crews to start their 2nd half at the same stn that they ended their 1st half?

 

[ComUtoR]

or even a better more radical solution would be to schedule train crews to start their 2nd half at the same stn that they ended their 1st half?

What if the incoming service is turned back short ? You now need to get that Driver to where the train was terminated or where it will end up.

We can play the 'what if...' game all day and this entire debate is about 'what if..' type scenarios. You will always need to pass a Driver somewhere or another for various reasons. Not forgetting a big reason why we pass to some locations is the lack of route knowledge with the other Driver.

 

[jon0844]

What if the incoming service is turned back short ? You now need to get that Driver to where the train was terminated or where it will end up.

We can play the 'what if...' game all day and this entire debate is about 'what if..' type scenarios. You will always need to pass a Driver somewhere or another for various reasons. Not forgetting a big reason why we pass to some locations is the lack of route knowledge with the other Driver.

Now the core is where many trains will go from next May (potentially), there's something to be said for having sign on facilities at Finsbury Park. But drivers also need a proper mess room and facilities so maybe there just isn't the room.

 

[Failed Unit]

If the driver is traveling from kings cross - Finsbury Park to relieve a Horsham - Peterborough service why don’t the just get on the exact train at St Pancras?

It only appears to be the core trains blocking platforms. (Although Moorgate drivers swap at Finsbury Park.)

Am I missing something? The only service GTR run between kings cross and Finsbury Park are the exceptionally unreliable Cambridge slow ones. You can’t expect to plan things around these.

 

[Aictos]

If the driver is traveling from kings cross - Finsbury Park to relieve a Horsham - Peterborough service why don’t the just get on the exact train at St Pancras?

It only appears to be the core trains blocking platforms. (Although Moorgate drivers swap at Finsbury Park.)

Am I missing something? The only service GTR run between kings cross and Finsbury Park are the exceptionally unreliable Cambridge slow ones. You can’t expect to plan things around these.

That's actually a very good point, it's quicker and a far better use of resources to get traincrew to simply walk across between Kings Cross and St Pancras then send a driver pass from Kings Cross to Finsbury Park to take on a service when they could more then easily have picked up the working from St Pancras Int.

Maybe there's a reason why it's not happening, I don't think it's unreasonable to ensure time is put into the diagrams to allow for walking time between the two stations after all walking is far quicker and healthily then travelling pass on a service then sitting in a cab for a long while and it's not like the two stations are quite a distance from each other.

 

[bramling]

That's actually a very good point, it's quicker and a far better use of resources to get traincrew to simply walk across between Kings Cross and St Pancras then send a driver pass from Kings Cross to Finsbury Park to take on a service when they could more then easily have picked up the working from St Pancras Int.

Maybe there's a reason why it's not happening, I don't think it's unreasonable to ensure time is put into the diagrams to allow for walking time between the two stations after all walking is far quicker and healthily then travelling pass on a service then sitting in a cab for a long while and it's not like the two stations are quite a distance from each other.

I suspect the answer is that there isn’t time in the station dwell, and all the other issues like what happens if there’s no relief available. Having said that, the way things are at the moment it might be the lesser of two evils.

Are there still reliefs occurring at Blackfriars?

Another point, are all these Finsbury reliefs
happening with drivers from Kings Cross, or from elsewhere too? Many GN services always seem to have a posse of staff travelling in the rear first class section nowadays, often going to/from Finsbury - although some of these could be going to Hornsey to pick up.

 

[WeGoAgain]

That's actually a very good point, it's quicker and a far better use of resources to get traincrew to simply walk across between Kings Cross and St Pancras then send a driver pass from Kings Cross to Finsbury Park to take on a service when they could more then easily have picked up the working from St Pancras Int.

Maybe there's a reason why it's not happening, I don't think it's unreasonable to ensure time is put into the diagrams to allow for walking time between the two stations after all walking is far quicker and healthily then travelling pass on a service then sitting in a cab for a long while and it's not like the two stations are quite a distance from each other.

I'd imagine that option was not factored into the diagrams as nobody foresaw a problem. Now that these (and other) issues are coming to light, it's something which may be looked at and altered (hopefully improved) for future services.

A Driver need only PASS from St. Pancras on the train they are due to drive from FPK onwards. It's not necessary for the Driver to start their working from STP.
Rightly or wrongly, there is going to be a lot of 'learning on the job'.

Another point, are all these Finsbury reliefs happening with drivers from Kings Cross, or from elsewhere too?

Elsewhere too, but I'd guess the majority are Kings Cross. I stress 'guess'.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect the answer is that there isn’t time in the station dwell, and all the other issues like what happens if there’s no relief available. Having said that, the way things are at the moment it might be the lesser of two evils.

Are there still reliefs occurring at Blackfriars?

Another point, are all these Finsbury reliefs
happening with drivers from Kings Cross, or from elsewhere too? Many GN services always seem to have a posse of staff travelling in the rear first class section nowadays, often going to/from Finsbury - although some of these could be going to Hornsey to pick up.

It may be general ignorance (from my part) but do they do anything at Finsbury Park. Or are you meaning the delay of getting from the coach into the cab (or directly into the cab if the appeared at St Pancras). I know dwells are longer at Finsbury Park, but of course it is always quicker to change if the driver is stood waiting.

I know it is a different thread but Finsbury Park is not suitable for the constant last minute platform changes. I have seen many occasions where passengers are the full length of platform 2. They see a train. Notice it is going to platform 4. Stampede across (I suspect many miss it) as the platform change is announced as the train pulls in.

Never enjoyed the change from 4 to ½ in the rush hour. But it seems worse on a last minute alteration compared to in the past when all trains went to kings cross and people would just stay on 2 and wait for next one. (Not a huge amount did Finsbury Park - Kings Cross) people from the 313s would prefer Highbury and Islington. Now already a reasonable number of people board at Finsbury Park for the core despite the current unreliable offering.

 

[sefton]

If TfL staff allow travel then it isn't a criminal act.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Attempting to travel without having previously paid your fare and with intent to avoid payment is certainly a criminal offence, and that is exactly what they are trying to do; travel without paying the fare they know is due.

Just because the TFL gateline staff allow it doesn't make it right unless that is the instruction they have been given by TFL management (and that clearly hasn't been given, because if it had then the GTR drivers would have passes to show/tap in and not see if they can blag a free trip). A reasonable analogy would be asking your mate on the supermarket checkout not to scan through the bottle of whisky; even if they do you have still stolen it.

Anyway, it is interesting to know that the hours I have spent waiting for a driver to turn up at Finsbury Park is because GTR is too cheap to pay a few tube fares.