The '£5k commuter club'

[Adlington]

Season ticket fares in England & Wales are expected to increase by up to 3.6% from January 2018.

Rail fares are set to rise next year, meaning more of us are joining the so-called £5k commuter club - workers who pay that sum getting to and from work each year.

Season tickets to London are already above £5,000 from places such as Milton Keynes (£5,028 to London) and Portsmouth and Southsea in Hampshire (£5,048).

When fares increase in January 2018, London commuters in Oxford, Colchester in Essex and Hastings in East Sussex are also set to join the club.

Full text (BBC)

 

[EM2]

£5000 a year, divided by 48 weeks (as most people get four weeks annual leave), divided by ten journeys a week, gives a cost per journey of £10.42.
Sounds like a bargain to me.

 

[jon0844]

£5000 a year, divided by 48 weeks (as most people get four weeks annual leave), divided by ten journeys a week, gives a cost per journey of £10.42.
Sounds like a bargain to me.

Dare you to post that on the BBC or other newspaper site.

Something like: Milton Keynes to London and back for £10.42 each way.. try doing that in a taxi (closer comparison than a car, given you don't have to drive yourself that way).

And certainly don't mention an annual ticket giving you a Gold Card for other benefits, as well as the free travel at weekends etc.

 

[AM9]

£5000 a year, divided by 48 weeks (as most people get for weeks annual leave), divided by ten journeys a week, gives a cost per journey of £10.42.
Sounds like a bargain to me.

Yes, probably less than a heavily restricted off-peak ticket for the same journey.

 

[EM2]

Dare you to post that on the BBC or other newspaper site.

Something like: Milton Keynes to London and back for £10.42 each way.. try doing that in a taxi (closer comparison than a car, given you don't have to drive yourself that way).

And certainly don't mention an annual ticket giving you a Gold Card for other benefits, as well as the free travel at weekends etc.

Unfortunately, they haven't enabled comments on that particular story

 

[westv]

Dare you to post that on the BBC or other newspaper site.

Something like: Milton Keynes to London and back for £10.42 each way.. try doing that in a taxi (closer comparison than a car, given you don't have to drive yourself that way).

And certainly don't mention an annual ticket giving you a Gold Card for other benefits, as well as the free travel at weekends etc.

You can hardly compare a taxi with a train though!

 

[alistairlees]

Dare you to post that on the BBC or other newspaper site.

Something like: Milton Keynes to London and back for £10.42 each way.. try doing that in a taxi (closer comparison than a car, given you don't have to drive yourself that way).

And certainly don't mention an annual ticket giving you a Gold Card for other benefits, as well as the free travel at weekends etc.

It's about 45 miles in a straight line from Milton Keynes to Euston (according to various websites), and obviously a little longer as the railway line (or road) goes.

Even with the shortest distance that's 23.2p per mile.

The road distance is about 53 miles (according to Google) so that's 25,440 miles per year (rather a lot to drive). According to this site a 1.4l petrol car is going to cost to run (obviously not capital costs) £2200 a year, or about 8.5p per mile to do this. Clearly there would be quite a lot of depreciation though.

Whilst I don't think people do these calculations in detail, for the most part, I suspect it's why they think it's expensive, given that most people have a rough idea of how much it costs to fill up the car, and how far they can go on that.

Adding in the depreciation alone in this example though would make car and train at least roughly the same cost. Without taking into account journey time, other costs, benefits of rail (time gained etc.)

 

[[.n]]

I can only wish my season ticket was cheap enough to only be £5K

 

[jon0844]

You can hardly compare a taxi with a train though!

You can if you don't want to be driving yourself. I guess you could also use a bus or coach.

Driving is the obvious comparison but it's not really like for like. For one, a commuter from MK probably doesn't want the hassle, or expense, of parking in central London.

Of course they may not work in central London and work somewhere north, near the M1, but we're talking about a lot more than cost. Trains can be delayed, but commuting on the M1? Erm, no thanks.

 

[westv]

You can hardly compare a taxi with a train though!

You can if you don't want to be driving yourself. I guess you could also use a bus or coach.
.

A taxi arrives at your door at the time you want. It then transports only you or you and people you know straight to your exact destination. What train or bus does that?

 

[baz962]

It's about 45 miles in a straight line from Milton Keynes to Euston (according to various websites), and obviously a little longer as the railway line (or road) goes.

Even with the shortest distance that's 23.2p per mile.

The road distance is about 53 miles (according to Google) so that's 25,440 miles per year (rather a lot to drive). According to this site a 1.4l petrol car is going to cost to run (obviously not capital costs) £2200 a year, or about 8.5p per mile to do this. Clearly there would be quite a lot of depreciation though.

Whilst I don't think people do these calculations in detail, for the most part, I suspect it's why they think it's expensive, given that most people have a rough idea of how much it costs to fill up the car, and how far they can go on that.

Adding in the depreciation alone in this example though would make car and train at least roughly the same cost. Without taking into account journey time, other costs, benefits of rail (time gained etc.)

And of course parking congestion charge etc. I don't have a season ticket as I travel to london maybe about 30 times a year I get a zones 1 to 6 travelcard and a yearly 30 pound network rail card. In the week it costs 20 quid and on a weekend 13 quid to get to london use the tube all day and get back. If I get an east midlands train it takes 40 mins from bedford a car is an hour and a half ish at least, with bad traffic much worse then find a space maybe, then a high parking charge plus congestion charge and you would have to re park each location rather than hop on the tube. It really astounds me as to how any right minded person can say rail is expensive

 

[radamfi]

£5K may be "cheap" but is expensive compared to other countries. For example, you get unlimited travel on the entire German rail network, including high speed trains running up to 300 km/h, for just over 4,000 euros.

 

[Wallsendmag]

£5952 I make it at the moment for my daily trip from Newcastle to York, worth every penny.

 

[Camden]

The reason why so many people think it's expensive is because they can't afford it.

If you're in the £5k club then chances are you're in a job where you can.

The biggest problem is for people in the £3k club. These are typically people on fairly low wages who have to use the train because they can't get a job closer to home.

£20k salary is a take home of £16k. So that's £13k a year left for everything else.

In my experience, that's not at all unusual. People in that situation will feel every extra penny that is taken from them.

The government do know this. The only reason why they backed off from rises in previous years was because they knew fine well that many people were at breaking point, and another financial crisis from debt defaults wasn't in the government's interests. I guess they think the economy is out of the woods, but it isn't for most.

 

[jon0844]

A taxi arrives at your door at the time you want. It then transports only you or you and people you know straight to your exact destination. What train or bus does that?

I think you're missing the point. I didn't compare train vs car because when I travel on a train, I am on my phone, reading a paper, relaxing and not having to worry about driving.

When I drive, I have that freedom you can't get on a train, but have to focus on driving, parking, fuelling etc.

There can never be a perfect comparison. A train is a train. A car is a car. A taxi is a taxi....

I think a taxi CAN be compared on the basis that you aren't having to drive. The added benefit would of course be door to door, but at considerable extra cost. Hence why people don't generally get about long distances like MK to London by taxi! Ergo, the train is quite good value.

 

[richieb1971]

I used to think its a ripoff. But like everything else in this world today everything is a market. If the BBC pay high salaries due to the "market" why should Virgin trains West coast charge less when they are going to pack in the customers anyway?


The issue with almost everything is that everyone is painted with the same brush. And like someone above me states, not everyone can afford it.

Trains are basically treated like a limo service. You get in, someone drives you, you get to eat, drink or do whatever you like in the back seat.

The railways do not operate on a very good business model in my humble opinion. Especially considering that a lot of trains are delayed, lots of TOC's go on strike and the government has to cough up and subsidise network rail to the tune of £30+ billion for the privilege of using our railways.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The railways do not operate on a very good business model in my humble opinion. Especially considering that a lot of trains are delayed, lots of TOC's go on strike and the government has to cough up and subsidise network rail to the tune of £30+ billion for the privilege of using our railways.

When was the last time that a TOC went on strike rather than a rail union?

 

[EM2]

... the government has to cough up and subsidise network rail to the tune of £30+ billion for the privilege of using our railways.

And if they didn't, that money would have to come from fares.

 

[jon0844]

And if they didn't, that money would have to come from fares.

Yup!

Perhaps when people realise it's expensive to run a railway, and not every route is highly profitable, they may come around to accepting the fares and the alternative (like lower fares, paid for by the taxpayer, and rail usage surging even more so it's even more congested and prone to delays).

If people moaning weren't also saying we shouldn't waste money on HS2 then I could almost have some sympathy, but some people don't seem to realise what they're actually asking for.

This doesn't mean there isn't still justification to moan about individual services, like stock allocation or timetabling (but accepting that both are quite complicated things, not just adding extra coaches on to a train!) or to just grin and accept everything, but immediately calling for nationalising the railway seems odd. In this case, it wouldn't really impact fares at all.

The media does of course like to stir by mentioning foreign owned TOCs and the pay packet of a CEO. Something for debate, sure, but a drop in the ocean as to what the real money drains are.

 

[Harbouring]

The Portsmouth and southsea season looks a lot more value in that comparison considering a peak day return is £70

 

[yorksrob]

This is the issue. Everyone talks about season tickets, however there are a lot of already extortionate anytime and off-peak fares that are going to be hiked off the back of this.

 

[westv]

This is the issue. Everyone talks about season tickets, however there are a lot of already extortionate anytime and off-peak fares that are going to be hiked off the back of this.

Presumably it's because season tickets are the only time that a passenger is likely to fork out thousands of pounds in one go.
Yes, they may get their journey for 10p a day ( or whatever the per day rate might be) but when that journey might be uncomfortable and take you to where you don't want to be then you are hardly going to think of it as a bargain.

 

[yorksrob]

Presumably it's because season tickets are the only time that a passenger is likely to fork out thousands of pounds in one go.
Yes, they may get their journey for 10p a day ( or whatever the per day rate might be) but when that journey might be uncomfortable and take you to where you don't want to be then you are hardly going to think of it as a bargain.

True, but if you're on a limited income and rely on the train for getting about, the insidious upward creep of medium distance fares (for journeys for which AP isn't really appropriate) can be a strain on people.

 

[Ianno87]

£5K may be "cheap" but is expensive compared to other countries. For example, you get unlimited travel on the entire German rail network, including high speed trains running up to 300 km/h, for just over 4,000 euros.

What are levels of taxation, healthcare spending, etc in Germany compared to Britain? Such a 'cheap' ticket must be paid for somehow, even if indirectly subsidised through taxation (or less spending elsewhere) by the entire population.

 

[AnkleBoots]

The Germans pay more tax.

Germany

Gross salary £25,000
After tax £18,923
Tax rate 24.3%

Gross salary £40,000
After tax £27,256
Tax rate 31.8%

Gross salary £100,000
After tax £61,740
Tax rate 38.3%



United Kingdom

Gross salary £25,000
After tax £20,279
Tax rate 18.9%

Gross salary £40,000
After tax £30,480
Tax rate 24.8%

Gross salary £100,000
After tax £65,780
Tax rate 34.3%

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-pay-europe-australia-us

Other interpretations/calculations are available.

 

[AM9]

Presumably it's because season tickets are the only time that a passenger is likely to fork out thousands of pounds in one go.
Yes, they may get their journey for 10p a day ( or whatever the per day rate might be) but when that journey might be uncomfortable and take you to where you don't want to be then you are hardly going to think of it as a bargain.

The discomfort from overcrowding is the price that passengers pay for all travelling at the same time and causing ridiculous levels of asset waste the rest of the day.
It's always been that way with rolling stock but now all of the critical infrastructure is loaded to its full capacity, something has to give, i.e. passenger comfort.

 

[radamfi]

What are levels of taxation, healthcare spending, etc in Germany compared to Britain? Such a 'cheap' ticket must be paid for somehow, even if indirectly subsidised through taxation (or less spending elsewhere) by the entire population.

Britain has an Anglo-Saxon economic model so I would be very surprised if German taxation is lower. Most European countries think it is important to heavily subsidise public transport to encourage usage.

You could argue that most train commuting is captive and therefore it doesn't matter what the fares are. And if fares were lower it would only encourage more crowding.

But maybe unnecessary car journeys are being made because of high train fares? Maybe the Germans don't need to price passengers off the trains like the Brits because they provide more train/track capacity?

 

[westv]

The discomfort from overcrowding is the price that passengers pay for all travelling at the same time and causing ridiculous levels of asset waste the rest of the day.
It's always been that way with rolling stock but now all of the critical infrastructure is loaded to its full capacity, something has to give, i.e. passenger comfort.

Seeing as most commuters have no input on when they need to be at work I doubt they consider "asset waste" their problem.

 

[6Gman]

A taxi arrives at your door at the time you want. It then transports only you or you and people you know straight to your exact destination. What train or bus does that?

But the good thing about a train is that the drivers rarely want to talk politics with their customers.

 

[AM9]

Seeing as most commuters have no input on when they need to be at work I doubt they consider "asset waste" their problem.

I doubt that they think about anybody's position other than their own but it doesn't change the fact that most of the investment in suburban/metro rail capacity is only used for about two hours in the the morning and two hours in the evening peak. For the rest of the week, that capacity gets little or no use but still needs to be maintained.
Given the heavily discounted fares that season ticket holders enjoy, little of the cost of such investment gets any contribution from season ticket sales.