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The 2019 General Election - Campaign Debate and Discussion

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What's the difference between evasion and avoidance?

See HMRC tax gap material linked from post 127. Chapter L of the methodological annex explains the difference between behaviours in some detail. Great bedtime reading!

To summarise, the different behaviours are

Criminal attacks - co-ordinated and systematic attacks by criminal gangs, such as smuggling
Evasion - registered taxpayers deliberately omit, conceal or misrepresent information in order to reduce their tax liabilities
Hidden economy - undeclared economic activity; subdivided into 'ghosts' where the entire income source is unknown to HMRC, and 'moonlighters' where some of the income source is known to HMRC but there are other income sources which are not. (Differs from tax evasion which is a declared source being deliberately understated)
Avoidance - exploiting the rules to gain an unintended tax advantage, often involving contrived or artificial transactions. Includes base erosion and profit shifting across international borders
Legal interpretation - where interpretation of how the law applies to the facts of a particular case differs between HMRC and the taxpayer
Non-payment - tax debts written off e.g. because of insolvency
Failure to take reasonable care - where the taxpayer has been careless or negligent in recording their transactions and/or preparing their tax return
Error - mistakes in tax calculations

I quote directly below in respect of avoidance specifically:

"Tax avoidance is not the same as tax planning. Tax planning involves using tax reliefs for the purpose for which they were intended. For example, claiming tax relief on capital investment, saving in a tax exempt ISA or saving for retirement by making contributions to a pension scheme are all forms of tax planning." (Methodological Annex page 42)

So, if you argue you are avoiding tax by having an ISA, then you must accept you are also avoiding tax if you are in a pension scheme!
 
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radamfi

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Is anyone advocating scrapping ISAs? There's an argument that they are regressive and only benefit the rich. There is now a £1,000 savings allowance so you would have a large principal in the first place to need to shelter your savings interest from tax. Peer-to-peer lending is more likely to lead you to exceed that amount but they can now be put into ISAs as well.

You get a capital gains allowance of £12,000 a year and a dividend allowance of £2,000 a year so, again, you have to do rather well to need an ISA to shelter investments from text.
 
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JamesT

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See HMRC tax gap material linked from post 127. Chapter L of the methodological annex explains the difference between behaviours in great detail. Great bedtime reading!

I quote directly below:

Tax avoidance is not the same as tax planning. Tax planning involves using tax reliefs for the purpose for which they were intended. For example, claiming tax relief on capital investment, saving in a tax exempt ISA or saving for retirement by making contributions to a pension scheme are all forms of tax planning. (Methodological Annex page 42)

So, if you think you are avoiding tax by having an ISA, then you must accept you are also avoiding tax if you are in a pension scheme!

That’s the technical HMRC definition, the everyday one from say https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_avoidance is that anything that is a legal way to reduce your tax liability is tax avoidance.

HMRC are keen on blurring the simple line between avoidance is legal, evasion is not in order to go after people on the fringes.
 

Struner

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May I make a suggestion?

Should we ask all candidates to resign just in case they made any dodgy comments in the past? It might be easier than this drip drip drip of candidates (especially Labour candidates) resigning!
It seems that it’s the Labour ones that are resigning, the Tory ones just carry on.
 

Struner

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Also, he also says that NI has a "great deal" because it is keeping freedom of movement. If it is so good, why is he so against it for the rest of us?!
You just shouldn’t believe anything he says. He just makes it up when going along.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I've heard it said that in the UK, Corporation Tax is essentially a voluntary payment

Then you appear to have heard some pretty misleading stuff. It's certainly not voluntary in any sense of the term for small and medium sized businesses.

It arguably does gets a bit more complex for very large and especially multinational businesses because when your profits (and therefore your corporation tax liabilities) are in the hundreds of millions, it becomes very worthwhile to pay accountants and financial experts lots of money to find tax avoidance schemes to get your tax liabilities down. Even so the Government does seem to collect a lot of money from large businesses in corporation tax.

I guess the real problems are with multinational companies, where it can arguably (and quite seriously) be quite hard to determine exactly which country a profit was made in, if the profit comes from business activities that are spread across several countries. And it therefore becomes very tempting to choose the country that charges the lowest corporation tax rates to declare your profits in. No easy solutions to that one.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I can’t vote for Corbyn , so it’s either Boris or don’t vote at all

Yeah, coz obviously Labour and the Conservatives are the only parties contesting this election, so there won't be anyone else standing in your constituency apart from Boris and Corbyn.... ;)
 

Pyreneenguy

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I can’t vote for Corbyn , so it’s either Boris or don’t vote at all

Another voter with two party tunnel vision. Open your mind and consider voting Lib-Dem. Emmanuel Macron, starting from nothing, offered French voters something new-neither of the left or the right- and they gave him a chance. He's half way through his term and I honestly couldn't claim he's been a huge success but as things stand, he will, if a candidate be reelected in 2022. The traditional left and right wing parties are showing no signs of recovery.
 

radamfi

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But there shouldn't be more than two candidates per constituency, as the voting system is not suitable for use where there are more than two candidates.
 

GusB

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But there shouldn't be more than two candidates per constituency, as the voting system is not suitable for use where there are more than two candidates.
Not every constituency has a straight lab/con fight, though. I am in agreement with you in that first past the post needs to be binned, but I wouldn't be happy if the smaller parties simply shrugged and refused to field candidates because the system overall favours the larger parties.
 

radamfi

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Why are Johnson's comments in NI not causing much controversy? Surely any Conservative politician being interviewed at the moment should be questioned on it?
 

Gooner18

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Lib Dem’s do nothing for me, I wonder if they won whether they would respect the decision , or would they be willing to have another GE to double check?

I have always voted conservative, however I would of quite possibly voted labour for the first time in the last GE and this one. However I can’t vote for Corbyn and his dictatorship momentum
 

Busaholic

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The list of seats divied out between the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and the Greens as to which candidate would get a clear run makes interesting reading for which seats are NOT included. Why St Ives (Tory majority over Lib Dem in 2017 = 302) doesn't appear is most mysterious, given the Greens do increasingly well down here, and 3rd place Labour increased their share of the vote from 9.3% to 14.2% between 2015 and 2017. The ex Lib Dem MP for the constituency Andrew George is standing again against incumbent creationist and Brexiteer Derek Thomas. After the calling of the 2017 GE Theresa May's first visit was to St Ives, so they were well aware they could lose it. Could Mr George's speech at the recent Lib Dem conference criticising Jo Swinson's stance on certain matters have an influence on the non-inclusion? I know plenty of people planning on voting for Andrew George, some of them basically Labour supporters but others more traditional Liberals, who are unimpressed by Swinson's stridency and general impression of being very pleased with herself: most of these people are women, by the way, lest anyone think I'm being sexist.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Lib Dem’s do nothing for me, I wonder if they won whether they would respect the decision , or would they be willing to have another GE to double check?

Pointless comment. The whole point about a GE is that we are guaranteed to get a double-checking opportunity within 5 years. Unlike a referendum. Which also had no legal status as regards implementing the outcome.
 

bramling

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All the recent talk of deals between Labour and the SNP must be good for the Conservatives - it was widely suggested that this is partly what did it for Miliband in 2015.
 

transmanche

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It seems that it’s the Labour ones that are resigning, the Tory ones just carry on.

Or this one:

Wakefield Tory candidate Antony Calvert quits over Facebook comments
A Conservative election candidate has stepped down over historic social media posts about a Labour MP and Colonel Gaddafi.

Antony Calvert, who was standing to be MP for Wakefield, also made comments about food poverty, as reported by the Sunday Times.
 

telstarbox

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Lib Dem’s do nothing for me, I wonder if they won whether they would respect the decision , or would they be willing to have another GE to double check?

I have always voted conservative, however I would of quite possibly voted labour for the first time in the last GE and this one. However I can’t vote for Corbyn and his dictatorship momentum

How are Momentum a dictatorship?
 

Esker-pades

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If you were to ask them that question, you most probably would receive a reassurance from their spokesperson that their was a democratic body of opinion ..... as was also once claimed by the Deutsche Demokratische Republik.
That's seriously flawed logic. If you ask any democratic body, they will state the same thing.

Perhaps have a read of the Momentum Constitution and decide for yourself.

https://peoplesmomentum.com/constitution/
Momentum Constitution Summary said:
Membership:
The constitution requires all new Momentum members to be Labour Party members. New members who join Momentum must be members of the Labour Party.

Momentum members who have been suspended from Labour, but not expelled, will remain members of Momentum. Momentum members who believe they have been expelled from the Labour Party unfairly, along with individuals about whom membership decisions are taken, have the right to a hearing by Momentum’s National Coordinating Group.

Supporters of Momentum who are not members can participate in campaigns and activities organised by a local group, network or Momentum nationally, but cannot hold a position within Momentum, vote in elections or hold other membership rights.

How key decisions are made:
Key decisions are made by our National Coordinating Group (NCG) which includes representatives of members, affiliates and Labour public office holders, as well as being elected ordinary members through a digital democracy process. This aims to achieve a broad and representative group to regularly meet and discuss the needs of the organisation while maintaining the membership as the ultimate decision makers on key issues. The NCG is also overseen by a Members’ Council consisting of 50 members randomly chosen by lot.

1) National Coordinating Group (NCG):

The National Coordinating Group will comprise:

20 members, four from each of five divisions (a) the North West and Wales; (b) the Midlands, and the East; (c) the South East and South West; (d) London; (e) Yorkshire, Scotland, the North (North East & Cumbria) & overseas members. At least two of the members elected from each division should be women, and at least one should self-identify as BAME (black, Asian, ethnic minority).
4 Momentum members who are Labour public officer holders (of the UK, European or Scottish Parliaments, Welsh or London Assemblies, Elected Mayors or Police Commissioners, or Labour members of a British local authority).
6 members nominated by affiliated trade unions
4 members nominated by other affiliated organisations

If the 20 members who are elected do not include one person who self-identifies as disabled, one person who self-identifies as LGBT+ and three young persons under 30, then up to 4 more places will be elected to ensure these groups are represented.

All members can stand and vote in elections for positions on the NCG. Elections to the NCG will take place online or by other accessible means, with each member having a vote. Please find details of the election process and timetable here.

The constitution stipulates that the NCG should facilitate self-organisation for members of liberation groups within Momentum – LGBT+, disabled, women and black Asian and ethnic minority (BAME) – and campaign for increased representation for liberation groups within the Labour Party. The NCG must ensure that Momentum liberation networks have the support to organise campaigns and are able to advise and make recommendations to the NCG.

2) Members Council:
So that members can directly participate in developing the activities, resources and campaigns of Momentum, a Members’ Council will be chosen randomly by lot every 6 months. The goal is for the ideas, inspiration and innovation of Momentum’s activities to come from the grassroots, and be as responsive to members’ needs as possible.

3) Digital Democracy Platform:
My Momentum, Momentum’s digital democracy platform, has been used to consult members on Momentum’s submissions to the democracy review. Soon it will enable members to initiate and vote on campaign priorities, constitutional amendments or overturning decisions by the NCG. All members will be able to vote online with each member having a vote. Any members who are unable to vote online can contact the National Office to vote via other accessible means.
 

AlterEgo

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So if I put all my savings into an ISA am I avoiding paying tax on them or not?

Yes but that isn’t what tax avoidance means, as many people have rather tiresomely explained. Your logic is like suggesting the unemployed are avoiding income tax. Using an ISA in its intended way - to have a tax free saving allowance - is not tax avoidance.
 
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