the 5 spare 180s. What's happening?

[Pumbaa]

FGW is the wrong place for them in my opinion. I think they should go to ATW on the Manchester-Milford Haven services. That would speed the service up a bit.

No it wouldn't...! Slower acceleration than 175s at 0-100, the only places they can do faster than 100 is Cardiff-Swansea and Wilmslow - Crewe. They'd take pax better yes, but would probably have a negative effect on timings through the Marches. And as there's only 14 of them, call it an allox of 12 each day, you'd be hard pressed replacing every service. Although then doubling up 175s wouldn't be an issue.

But still. Not the greatest idea; I think they'd be better off on semi-fast fGW services.

 

[MCR247]

How would it speed it up?

 

[Lampshade]

FGW is the wrong place for them in my opinion. I think they should go to ATW on the Manchester-Milford Haven services. That would speed the service up a bit.

1 post to go till 100

As Pumbaa says they have slower acceleration and they hardly get up to 100 on that service, let alone 125. Also it'd be a waste of capacity as a 3 car 175 isn't exactly full and standing leaving Manchester like on the routes Northern use the 180s on.

 

[Pumbaa]

Although to be fair, they are wedged from Crewe quite commonly. When TPE gets all electrified (in my dream world) I'd second the 185s to ATW and displace the 175s and some 158s to the SouthWest for Devon/Cornwall runs and Portsmouth - Cardiff etc.

 

[danfitz123]

How would it speed it up?

Sorry, I always thought they were quicker. I thought that alstom would make a train quicker than its predeccesor. .

100th

 

[MCR247]

Well it is a quicker train, 125mph, but there isn't any 125 sections on the marches.

 

[northwichcat]

and Wilmslow - Crewe.

The WCML only has a top speed of 110mph unless tilting stock is used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although to be fair, they are wedged from Crewe quite commonly. When TPE gets all electrified (in my dream world) I'd second the 185s to ATW and displace the 175s and some 158s to the SouthWest for Devon/Cornwall runs and Portsmouth - Cardiff etc.

A 3 car 175 has 206 standard class seats, a 185 has 15 FC seats and 162 standard class seats, so I don't know why you think 29 less seats is a good idea if you're saying they are wedged south of Crewe. Also the 185 standard class seating was a poor choice for long distance services, which you'll be aware of if you've spent 2 hours or more on a 185.

There were some suggestions when the previous government mentioned the new diesel order that TransPennine Express would be getting 4 car Turbostars to replace 3 car 185s on North and South TPE, as Turbostars would be more suited to cross Pennine routes than the diesel thirty Desiros, with Corby-London suggested as a route which should take on cascaded 185s.

 

[Pumbaa]

The WCML only has a top speed of 110mph unless tilting stock is used.

I said those were the only two places they could do more than 100

A 3 car 175 has 206 standard class seats, a 185 has 15 FC seats and 162 standard class seats, so I don't know why you think 29 less seats is a good idea if you're saying they are wedged south of Crewe. Also the 185 standard class seating was a poor choice for long distance services, which you'll be aware of if you've spent 2 hours or more on a 185.

There were some suggestions when the previous government mentioned the new diesel order that TransPennine Express would be getting 4 car Turbostars to replace 3 car 185s on North and South TPE, as Turbostars would be more suited to cross Pennine routes than the diesel thirty Desiros, with Corby-London suggested as a route which should take on cascaded 185s.

I personally think the 185s are good trains and would do the Manchester - Cardiff run better than 175s. I would chop the services back to Swansea though and no further to reduce the allox. I also think that the corridor would benefit from a FC provision and increased luggage space, something that I think the 185s do better than the 175s. There are 27 175s and 24 158s used by ATW; displacing these 51 trains and replacing them with the 185s would be a good move for both the Marches corridor and the N Wales corridor.

A 3-car 175 may have 206 Standard seats, but with a 2-car having only 134 seats, and a 2-car 158 having sub 150, you get a net increase in seating, luggage space, standing space and first class provision.

 

[tbtc]

Corby-London suggested as a route which should take on cascaded 185s

51 units is an awkward number to allocate somewhere else. Too many for a London - Corby route.

One idea would be to give them all to ATW.

At the moment ATW have 27x 175 (two coach and three coach) plus 24x 158 (two coach, sometimes working in multiple).

Giving all 51 185s to ATW would give them one common fleet of longer-distance units - rather than trying to diagram their current stock. Admittedly a three coach 185 has fewer seats than the sixteen three coach 175s (though with better standing room), but it would be an increase in capacity on most services, and concentrate this small class with one TOC (they are too small to split between two or three TOCs).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I personally think the 185s are good trains and would do the Manchester - Cardiff run better than 175s. I would chop the services back to Swansea though and no further to reduce the allox. I also think that the corridor would benefit from a FC provision and increased luggage space, something that I think the 185s do better than the 175s. There are 27 175s and 24 158s used by ATW; displacing these 51 trains and replacing them with the 185s would be a good move for both the Marches corridor and the N Wales corridor.

A 3-car 175 may have 206 Standard seats, but with a 2-car having only 134 seats, and a 2-car 158 having sub 150, you get a net increase in seating, luggage space, standing space and first class provision.

You've put it better than I did

Give all the 185s to ATW (once suitable bigger replacements are found for TPE), split the ATW 158s between Northern, EMT and FGW... the problem is what to do with the ATW 175s...

...one idea would be to send them all to NXEA to free up 170s and 156s, or to LM to replace the 170s?

 

[387star]

give the 175s to FGW and use them on Portsmouth services!

 

[Drsatan]

give the 175s to FGW and use them on Portsmouth services!

Possibly, although they wouldn't offer any more capacity than the 3-car 158s in use on Cardiff-Portsmouth trains though. However, it might mean that any trains to Brighton from Great Malvern and Bristol can go to three cars (at the monent they're two cars and usually standing room only from Bath onwards)

 

[TheWalrus]

Im up for that!

 

[northwichcat]

51 units is an awkward number to allocate somewhere else. Too many for a London - Corby route.

I don't think the suggestion was that TPE would get enough 4 car Turbostars to replace all their 185s. They would likely have only been replaced on the routes that cross the Pennines, which would have allowed more 6 car workings on the North West routes.

give the 175s to FGW and use them on Portsmouth services!

There's no guarantee the 175s would be cleared for Cardiff-Portsmouth. They are heavier than 158s and 170s and work has had to be carried out to gain clearance for some of the routes they are used on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I also think that the corridor would benefit from a FC provision and increased luggage space, something that I think the 185s do better than the 175s.

The 185s have less luggage space than the 158s they replaced and only have more luggage space than 175s if you compare the 2 car 175s with 3 car 185s.

There are 27 175s and 24 158s used by ATW; displacing these 51 trains and replacing them with the 185s would be a good move for both the Marches corridor and the N Wales corridor.

Assuming the 185s are replaced by 4 car 173s that would be 204 cars ordered. TPE would certainly benefit by getting 51 additional vehicles. ATW would get 35 extra cars by replacing 158s and 175s with 185s. However, what would you do with the 118 vehicles?

 

[danfitz123]

The WCML only has a top speed of 110mph unless tilting stock is used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A 3 car 175 has 206 standard class seats, a 185 has 15 FC seats and 162 standard class seats, so I don't know why you think 29 less seats is a good idea if you're saying they are wedged south of Crewe. Also the 185 standard class seating was a poor choice for long distance services, which you'll be aware of if you've spent 2 hours or more on a 185.

There were some suggestions when the previous government mentioned the new diesel order that TransPennine Express would be getting 4 car Turbostars to replace 3 car 185s on North and South TPE, as Turbostars would be more suited to cross Pennine routes than the diesel thirty Desiros, with Corby-London suggested as a route which should take on cascaded 185s.

I agree totally. Desiros have the feel that they they are incredibly cheaply made. As for the turbostars... that would be great.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think the suggestion was that TPE would get enough 4 car Turbostars to replace all their 185s. They would likely have only been replaced on the routes that cross the Pennines, which would have allowed more 6 car workings on the North West routes.

The North West routes which will be electrified in a few years?

(you could take a few units out of my previous maths by giving EMT some ATW 158s to run the Cleethorpes - Manchester Airport service - two cars east of Doncaster, four cars west of Doncaster)

 

[TGVDUDE]

The 175s may not be full when leaving Manchester, but believe you me, Newport/Cardiff its a whole other Ball Game, I've even seen a 150 being used on some Rush Hour Carmarthen/Milford Havens, originating from Manchester. Full Wedged Two Car 175 on the Morning Rush Hour Service to Manchester....is just poor

 

[TheWalrus]

180s are clear between Cardiff and Westbury so I assume its the same for 175s

 

[northwichcat]

The North West routes which will be electrified in a few years?

Note that I said on one of my earlier posts "when the previous government mentioned the new diesel order" i.e. before any electrification was announced. It obviously needs to be revised in view of that.

However, at present there are no plans to order new diesel carriages for TPE, so there's unlikely to be any 185 cascade. Manchester-Scotland is set to be electrified and diverted via Wigan in the next few years. This will mean 185 usage will likely return to pre-Dec 2007 diagrams before TPE got the Scottish services i.e. 170s mainly running in pairs on Manchester-Hull and more 185s for South TPE and Windermere services continuing to Manchester Airport again to fill the gap through Bolton left by the diversion of the Scottish service.

By 2019 Manchester Airport-Blackpool is likely to be switched to EMUs. No electrification has been confirmed for Barrow or Windermere. By 2019 if passenger numbers continue to grow as expected on North TPE then they'll need to be 9 car workings, meaning that the 185 fleet will be too small for TPE even after two routes are switched to EMU operation.

I've even seen a 150 being used on some Rush Hour Carmarthen/Milford Havens, originating from Manchester.

This is one of the problems we see with privatised operators. If a 175 fails it might be that ATW are left with a choice of a cancelled service or using a 150 that's spare at the Chester depot. They don't have the option of using a spare 156 from Newton Heath as they belong to a different operator.

In the past we've also seen FNW running Holyhead-Manchester using 101s or 142s to fill in for a loco-hauled set/Sprinter/175 and ATN running Manchester Airport to Cleethorphes using a 144 to fill in for a 158.

Full Wedged Two Car 175 on the Morning Rush Hour Service to Manchester....is just poor

You're just seeing the same as in other parts of Britain. Liverpool-Scarborough, Liverpool-Norwich, Manchester Airport-Edinburgh, Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough/Newcastle are all services which can be crammed to the extent where passengers are left on the platform waiting for the next service.

 

[Philip]

I can't see the 175's leaving ATW anytime soon, given they've recently been repainted and refurbished. Also they've been on North Wales routes since first introduced 11 years ago so it seems unlikely they'll disappear from there after all this time.

185s won't be going anywhere either, maybe switched from the north west route to actual transpennine services but I can't see them leaving TPE.

 

[MCR247]

I agree totally. Desiros have the feel that they they are incredibly cheaply made. As for the turbostars... that would be great.

Are you serious? Turbostars/eletrostars feel a lot cheaper than desiros.

 

[Lampshade]

Could be worse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMDlB0P6fA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI5sv_FaNtQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju1jw...eature=related

 

[Drsatan]

Could be worse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMDlB0P6fA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI5sv_FaNtQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju1jwufXHog&feature=related

Worse still:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMRXQeB400w&feature=related

 

[daikilo]

Could be worse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnMDlB0P6fA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI5sv_FaNtQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju1jwufXHog&feature=related

You call those full! Those are peak-hour trains.. Try the London underground and many radial routes from major cities any morning or evening peak hours. I have never ever not been able to board a train or bus; I just push up against the other people in the doorway and space is made.

And what is the current design criteria for standing pax per sq.ft?

Pity pax are neither square nor without feelings; statistics rule.

 

[duffman82]

The Leeds-Huddersfield sector is always crammed during peaks barely enough space to stand!

 

[northwichcat]

You call those full! Those are peak-hour trains.. Try the London underground and many radial routes from major cities any morning or evening peak hours.

Pacers are dangerous when one person is standing due to how they bounce along the line opposed to run along the line. They were designed with the intention of being used on lines with low passenger numbers. London Underground and Overground trains were designed to hold a lot more people standing than seated.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A fairer comparison with London Underground is Manchester Metrolink. This is how crowded an off-peak service is typically in central Manchester on a M500 tram: http://johnleechmp.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/crowded-train-big.jpg

 

[RobShipway]

I live 5 minutes walk from Martins Heron station on the Reading - London Waterloo and last year when I had a weeks course in London had to catch the 6:20am train to make sure I was at the course by the Bank of England for 8:45 course start time. The train even at the point of getting to Martins Heron at that time of the morning was starting to be standing room only on a 8 car Class 458 train, hence why I think that SWT require the Class 460 coaches to extend these trains. That having been said, I have also been getting on a Class 175 at Llandudno station in the past at 7:20 in the morning to go into Manchester. I think I just about got a seat just as the train was approaching Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[northwichcat]

That having been said, I have also been getting on a Class 175 at Llandudno station in the past at 7:20 in the morning to go into Manchester. I think I just about got a seat just as the train was approaching Manchester Piccadilly.

So I guess you mean after it had dropped a lot of passengers at Manchester Oxford Rd, which would be equivalent to someone travelling on a Southeastern service to Charing Cross getting a seat after the train has left London Bridge.

The train even at the point of getting to Martins Heron at that time of the morning was starting to be standing room only

The arrival at Manchester Piccadilly from Buxton at around 07:30 has people standing between Stockport and Manchester, while some of the 323s arriving at that sort of time are fairly full. The TPE departures in the Leeds direction from Manchester between 07:15 and 07:45 are fairly full leaving Manchester and there would be enough passengers waiting at Huddersfield to fill every seat on the train, if the train arrived at Huddersfield with no-one on it.

 

[tbtc]

I live 5 minutes walk from Martins Heron station on the Reading - London Waterloo and last year when I had a weeks course in London had to catch the 6:20am train to make sure I was at the course by the Bank of England for 8:45 course start time. The train even at the point of getting to Martins Heron at that time of the morning was starting to be standing room only on a 8 car Class 458 train, hence why I think that SWT require the Class 460 coaches to extend these trains. That having been said, I have also been getting on a Class 175 at Llandudno station in the past at 7:20 in the morning to go into Manchester. I think I just about got a seat just as the train was approaching Manchester Piccadilly.

Whilst there is "crowding" in a lot of areas, the frustrating thing for me is that it could be solved in "the north" much cheaper and easier than in "the south".

The eight coach 458 you mention can only be extended by another 25% or so before it is too long for current platforms (etc).

However the two coach units round these parts could easily be increased to four coach (platforms are long enough to cope etc).

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully supportive of the small class of 460s being slotted into 458s to provide additional capacity - it is certainly needed down south.

But we don't need multi-million pound infrastructure improvements up here, we just need something longer than two or three coaches

/rant

 

[MCR247]

I live 5 minutes walk from Martins Heron station on the Reading - London Waterloo and last year when I had a weeks course in London had to catch the 6:20am train to make sure I was at the course by the Bank of England for 8:45 course start time. The train even at the point of getting to Martins Heron at that time of the morning was starting to be standing room only on a 8 car Class 458 train, hence why I think that SWT require the Class 460 coaches to extend these trains. That having been said, I have also been getting on a Class 175 at Llandudno station in the past at 7:20 in the morning to go into Manchester. I think I just about got a seat just as the train was approaching Manchester Piccadilly.

The extended 458s would be for Windsor though!

 

[TheWalrus]

So what did ya say was going to be on the Readings?