The 'Carolean Express', new named service from LNER

[JGurney]

Bring back "The European"

Can't see that finding favour with the current powers-that-be. Some of them might prefer an Atlanticist Coast policy express.

... naming normal services ... adds a touch of glamour which is surely useful for marketing

It is more likely to annoy the customer. A transparent marketing ploy designed to make a standard product look glamourous by attaching a fancy name (esp. one which once belonged to a genuine distinctive product) suggests that the advertiser thinks the customer is a mug who is easily tricked.

Does anyone here know how named trains came about? Were they invented by railway companies for marketing purposes, or did they begin as nicknames spontaneously given by travellers to distinctive services and then get adopted by the companies?

 

[hexagon789]

Stopped in 88 I think.

The name was dropped at the Summer 1987 timetable change. The Glasgow / Edinburgh - Harwich service was also rerouted via Watford, Shenfield and Colchester at the same time.

A separate Manchester Picc. - Harwich gained a title instead - the 'Rhinelander'. This soon became a new Super Sprinter service, named the 'Britannia' which also had a Nottingham portion. At the same time there was a Harwich - Birmingham / Liverpool called the 'Loreley'. The latter even gained a third portion running to/from Blackpool N. the following year IIRC.

 

[VauxhallNova]

"Welcome to the eleven hundred, LNER, Azuma, Carolean Express, train to Edinburgh."

Then five minutes of threats regarding the complex ticketing, that Great Northern, Thameslink, Hull Trains, Grand Central, Lumo tickets not being valid.

Then a warning to get off the train if not travelling (?).

Then a security announcement.

Then a reassurance that this is in fact the eleven hundred, LNER, Azuma, Carolean Express, train to Edinburgh.

 

[NorthWestRover]

What a bunch of miseries you all are.

 

[VauxhallNova]

Apologies! I actually quite like the named train bit, it's the rest of the announcements that frustrate me!

 

[32475]

The terms Victorian, Georgian, Edwardian and Elizabethan all caught on in art and architecture whereas Carolean never has.
When said, Carolean sounds like the love child of Carol and Ian. If Charles wanted to transition to become Queen Carol, only then would the term Carolean sound right (in my humble opinion)

 

[zwk500]

The terms Victorian, Georgian, Edwardian and Elizabethan all caught on in art and architecture whereas Carolean never has.

Tbf we've only had two other King Charles before, both of which are better known for other events in their reign - the Civil War and the Restoration.

When said, Carolean sounds like the love child of Carol and Ian. If Charles wanted to transition to become Queen Carol, only then would the term Carolean sound right (in my humble opinion)

Carolean for Charles is no less jarring than Jacobean for James.

 

[32475]

We’ve only ever had two Elizabeths. As for Jacobean, my point would be that we’ve never had a King Jacob. Heaven forbid that we should ever have a King Graham like me or a Queen Beryl! (No offence to any Grahams or Beryls out there. I’ll rest my case and get my coat)

 

[Condor7]

Are they going to have a headboard and/or announce the train as 'The Carolean Express' on the passenger information systems etc? If not, then it's not "well done LNER" since, as others have pointed out above, LNER are no longer identifying named trains in their PDF timetable, not even the 'Flying Scotsman' remains.


(First)GWR used to annouce their named trains, such as 'The Pembroke Coast Express' and 'The Mayflower' on the platforms at the stations they managed when they were worked by IC125s. Not sure if they still do or whether the 800s/802s annouce(d) them onboard. I cannot remember on-board annoucements mentioning the name on the IC125s but then I don't think they had automated on-board announcements at all.

With the IC125s, FirstGWR used to put the name (and an associated logo) of the named train on the paper window blinds. Now that the new trains have electronic destination displays on them it should be easier to display the name for named trains, but probably not the logo.

I contacted GWR recently and the told me they no longer name their expresses.

 

[xotGD]

Jacobean for James

I never knew that!

Every day is a school day.

As for the current king, what's wrong with Charlesian!?

And next up we can have Willian.

 

[zwk500]

I never knew that!

Every day is a school day.

As for the current king, what's wrong with Charlesian!?

And next up we can have Willian.

Jacobean takes the Latin form, James renders to 'Jacobus' in Latin (whether there's a different Latin form for Jacob is anybody's guess). Possibly because the Jacobite cause was predominantly linked to the traditional Catholic monarchy. Interestingly the opponents of the Jacobites (William of Orange) are referred to in the English form - Williamite - rather than Latin (Gulielmus/Gulielmean) or Dutch (Willem), William III's original nationality

Charles is the English and French form of the Latin Carolus - same as Karl (German) and Carlos (Spanish). For comparison we also use the Henrician era for Henry VIII (Latinises to Henricus), and Georgian era for the Hanoverian period (George Latinises to Georgius). Victoria is, of course, the same in Latin and English.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Does anyone here know how named trains came about? Were they invented by railway companies for marketing purposes, or did they begin as nicknames spontaneously given by travellers to distinctive services and then get adopted by the companies?

I believe that the world's first named train, the Irish Mail, came about because the rail staff themselves called the night train from Holyhead to Euston 'Wild Irishman'. (Whether that was a reference to the speed of the train or the behaviour of the train's clientelle, I really don't know.) Then the railway company must have decided to give the train, but a more seemly one.

 

[32475]

I never knew that!

Every day is a school day.

As for the current king, what's wrong with Charlesian!?

And next up we can have Willian.

If we had a King Ian, then his era would be called Ianian

 

[Condor7]

I believe that the world's first named train, the Irish Mail, came about because the rail staff themselves called the night train from Holyhead to Euston 'Wild Irishman'. (Whether that was a reference to the speed of the train or the behaviour of the train's clientelle, I really don't know.) Then the railway company must have decided to give the train, but a more seemly one.

Yes that is how it started, but as you say because the rail staff named it amongst themselves, this was back in the 1840’s. The first officially named train was by the South Eastern Railway Co in 1876 called The Granville Express named after the Granville Hotel near Ramsgate, the train running from London Charing Cross to Ramsgate and back. The Irish Mail had to wait until 1927 before being officially recognise.

 

[zwk500]

Yes that is how it started, but as you say because the rail staff named it amongst themselves, this was back in the 1840’s. The first officially named train was by the South Eastern Railway Co in 1876 called The Granville Express named after the Granville Hotel near Ramsgate, the train running from London Charing Cross to Ramsgate and back. The Irish Mail had to wait until 1927 before being officially recognise.

Was the Special Scotch Express of 1862 not officially named then? The Wikipedia article claims that the Flying Scotsman name had been used for the train since the 1870s, but was only made official in 1924 suggesting that the 1862 mame was official.

 

[hexagon789]

Was the Special Scotch Express of 1862 not officially named then? The Wikipedia article claims that the Flying Scotsman name had been used for the train since the 1870s, but was only made official in 1924 suggesting that the 1862 mame was official.

Given the West Coast used the term, or at least 'Scotch Express', it would be difficult to say it applied specifically to one train.

Certainly if you look through old Bradshaw's, Scotch Express applies to trains between London and Glasgow, London and Edinburgh, London and Aberdeen, London and Perth via 3 or 4 different routes and even in one case to a through coach service between Plymouth and Aberdeen!

The Royal Scot was often still referred to as the Scotch Express and the Midland Railway had a service called the Morning Scotch Express, which became the well-known Thames-Clyde Express.

 

[Vespa]

The fact it introduces an obscure name and foists it on the Scots both feel like Charlean gaffes to me. If we assumed it was going to be widely used and known, even among railway circles, which it won't.

Equally the English may take ubrage at the name Flying Scotman being foisted on them........

Just saying

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The fact it introduces an obscure name and foists it on the Scots both feel like Charlean gaffes to me. If we assumed it was going to be widely used and known, even among railway circles, which it won't.

He's king of Scotland too (by descent from James VI).

Railway names can be anachronistic - The Master Cutler when the world makes its own knives and forks?
I was sad when Virgin dropped the use of the Irish Mail name, but the trains don't carry mail any more, and the Irish link at Holyhead is now negligible.
But the Welsh Dragon/Y Draig Cymru, and the Snowdonian/Yr Wyddfa, would still work for Avanti.

 

[Jimini]

I remember hearing a service from Swindon to Paddington being auto-anounced as "the merchant venturer" on the tannoy at Swindon, about four years ago. Think it was around the 3pm mark. Guessing it originated in the West Country somewhere en route back into town.

 

[JGurney]

Given the West Coast used the term, or at least 'Scotch Express', it would be difficult to say it applied specifically to one train.

Certainly if you look through old Bradshaw's, Scotch Express applies to trains between London and Glasgow, London and Edinburgh, London and Aberdeen, London and Perth via 3 or 4 different routes and even in one case to a through coach service between Plymouth and Aberdeen!

The Royal Scot was often still referred to as the Scotch Express and the Midland Railway had a service called the Morning Scotch Express, which became the well-known Thames-Clyde Express.

I was a bit puzzled, when reading 'Without Lawful Authority' by Manning Coles, set in 1938 but written in 1943, by the story featuring a train which set off from Kings Cross and called at Peterborough being named the 'Scotch Express'. I recall wondering if that was a mistake for the Flying Scotsman. (The text made no other reference to the train's final destination).

 

[hexagon789]

I was a bit puzzled, when reading 'Without Lawful Authority' by Manning Coles, set in 1938 but written in 1943, by the story featuring a train which set off from Kings Cross and called at Peterborough being named the 'Scotch Express'. I recall wondering if that was a mistake for the Flying Scotsman. (The text made no other reference to the train's final destination).

Could also have been the 'Junior Scotsman' or the, at that date, still un-named afternoon service which later became the Heart of Midloathian. Those would literally be A Scotch express rather than perhaps THE Scotch Express.

The afternoon service did I believe call at Peterborough (North) in LNER days, I'm not sure the 'Junior Scotsman' did - I think it was first stop Grantham.

Or as you say, even THE Flying Scotsman, but possibly outside high summer when it wasn't non-stop and made the calls that it's summer relief (The so-called Junior Scotsman) made. Though as I put above, I'm not sure Peterborough was one of those stops, I'd need to verify it with one of the LNER timetables on Timetable World.

Of course, there is a third option, the author taking liberties - i.e. dramatic license.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In my view named trains should be identified as such in all of the following places:

• Printed & PDF timetables
• Station/Platform announcements
• Exterior electronic destination displays on the train

Ideally, they would also be identified on:

• Electronic information displays on stations/platforms
• on-board passenger information systems (not sure if this should apply to announcements, or only to the visual displays, given the complains of too many announcements)

But why though? Frankly, who cares for this information (?) ; the departure time, destination and calling points are important, arguably so is the TOC. I fail to see what benefit you get from naming a train something cringeworthy and putting them on the train exterior displays, potentially obscuring useful information.

 

[zwk500]

But why though? Frankly, who cares for this information (?) ; the departure time, destination and calling points are important, arguably so is the TOC. I fail to see what benefit you get from naming a train something cringeworthy and putting them on the train exterior displays, potentially obscuring useful information.

It means enthusiasts can clutch the Bradshaw's in a comforting manner.

Having said that, I have on occasion ended up using the named LNER trains between York and Newcastle as a walk-on passenger and I've never found the 'highlander' branding got in the way of any of the useful information (but this is HST paper display days).

 

[eldomtom2]

But why though? Frankly, who cares for this information (?) ; the departure time, destination and calling points are important, arguably so is the TOC. I fail to see what benefit you get from naming a train something cringeworthy and putting them on the train exterior displays, potentially obscuring useful information.

If applied to all services of a particular stopping pattern and such, it can serve the same purpose as a line name does.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If applied to all services of a particular stopping pattern and such, it can serve the same purpose as a line name does.

I'm not aware of any named trains in the UK that work this way.

 

[zwk500]

I'm not aware of any named trains in the UK that work this way.

Plenty of unofficially named ones.

 

[eldomtom2]

I'm not aware of any named trains in the UK that work this way.

Well, if you consider Gatwick Express a named service...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well, if you consider Gatwick Express a named service...

I don’t. It isn’t. It’s a TOC’s brand. By that logic GTR’s Great Northern, Southern and Thameslink services, or WM Trains’ London Northwestern Railway and West Midlands Railway services would also be named services.

 

[BrianW]

But why though? Frankly, who cares for this information (?) ; the departure time, destination and calling points are important, arguably so is the TOC. I fail to see what benefit you get from naming a train something cringeworthy and putting them on the train exterior displays, potentially obscuring useful information.

Does nobody take The Gann these days- maybe only 'cringeworthy' old gits?!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The terms Victorian, Georgian, Edwardian and Elizabethan all caught on in art and architecture whereas Carolean never has.
When said, Carolean sounds like the love child of Carol and Ian. If Charles wanted to transition to become Queen Carol, only then would the term Carolean sound right (in my humble opinion)

Carolingian is another option (sadly Charles III is not Charlemagne). Carlist is sometimes used.
Poor old William IV never had an "era" named after him (the earliest railways were in his time, not Victoria's).
But William V will need an adjective, which might be a challenge - Williamite?, Wilhelmine?
It is of course a name of Norman French and German origin...
Family-wise, I suppose Windsorian could be used, covering British monarchs since 1917 when they ditched Prince Albert's Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.