The Construction of the Elizabeth Line being a "national joke"

[Fazaar1889]

In the beginning of this video, Jago Hazard says:

the Elizabeth line has gone in a very short space of time from a national joke to a successful new mode of rail travel

I didn't follow the construction of XR so why did it have a bad reputation and what changed?

youtube.com/watch?v=G7obH_1dWxk

Crowlands: The Elizabeth Line's Could-Have-Been Station​

 

[stuu]

In the beginning of this video, Jago Hazard says:

I didn't follow the construction of XR so why did it have a bad reputation and what changed?

Being 3.5 years late didn't help. Or £4bn over budget

 

[zwk500]

It had a period when it announced the opening being put back slightly several times in quick succession, as well as things like having to change the main contractors/management and Bond Street somehow still managing to open later than the rest of the line.

 

[snowball]

It was originally supposed to open by the end of 2018. Right up to a few months before that date, they were still claiming publicly that it would open on time, then it was suddenly nowhere near completion and was not opened for several more years.

Then there's the cost overrun.

 

[Gloster]

I think that it was a bit of a joke in London and to some people that is all that Britain is: a joke in London is a national joke. Most of the country didn’t really notice.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Firing the management team, who were in denial about delays and cost overruns, was not a good look.
Having said that, such overruns on major infrastructure projects are not unusual (Berlin Brandenburg Airport, for instance, or almost any military project).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I almost had a brain aneurysm trying to work out what the second word in the title was, but I think now I've got the gist.
I don't think "national joke" is specific to the Elizabeth line itself. It seems every major construction project these days finds its way majorly overbudget and/or considerably delayed. Take HS2, NPH, EWR, South Wales Metro, but then also many outside of the UK too.

(While we're on the topic of Jago Hazzard, I've finally seen what he looks like btw despite his attempts to be mysterious, and I can't explain it but his face matches his voice, if that makes sense )

 

[Fazaar1889]

I almost had a brain aneurysm trying to work out what the second word in the title was, but I think now I've got the gist.

ahaha sorry, lemme correct that rq

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

ahaha sorry, lemme correct that rq

We've all done it at some point

 

[zwk500]

Having said that, such overruns on major infrastructure projects are not unusual (Berlin Brandenburg Airport, for instance, or almost any military project).

Berlin Airport was really a masterclass in how not to do it - the icing on the cake being the failure and condemnation of the Fire alarm but so desperate to finish were the project team they suggested hiring a manual firewatch team to be posted in every corridor 24/7.
Military projects overrun because it is very difficult to conduct proper scrutiny on programmes that have so much secrecy, and because contractors know the politicians cannot afford to have nothing.

 

[dk1]

It became a bit of a farce not helped by all the hype in the over the top TV series which followed the construction but was given no mention from those above that things were not going to plan. Now that’s all behind us & the route has proved itself to be a huge success it just has to be put down as one of those things. Onwards & upwards.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The national joke is that the original management team were financially well rewarded for basically misleading TfL but equal culprits were Jacobs that were also paid handsomely to provide independent oversight to TfL but failed to provide any warning of the fiasco that be felled the project in 2018.

The worst outcome from this is now an approach on the likes of HS2 where we have an opening window now four years long for phase 1 that even after a couple of years construction still can't be narrowed. There is no way private companies could operate with this level of uncertainty on when an investment will start earning income. Even govt borrowed money cost 4% a year so by teh time HS2 have spent 50B on phase 1 those four years could add another 8B in interest charges. Its utterly unbelievable that this is just being accepted needs a JFK approach and set a hard deadline focuses mind.

 

[Chester1]

Berlin Airport was really a masterclass in how not to do it - the icing on the cake being the failure and condemnation of the Fire alarm but so desperate to finish were the project team they suggested hiring a manual firewatch team to be posted in every corridor 24/7.
Military projects overrun because it is very difficult to conduct proper scrutiny on programmes that have so much secrecy, and because contractors know the politicians cannot afford to have nothing.

Someone made a moderately successful board game about Berlin Brandenburg Airport with all the "go back x spaces cards" being stuff that actually happened. The project was broadly equivalent to extending Stansted's rail link into a loop, building a second runway and two terminals that are collectively smaller than Heathrow terminal 5. I think it was eleven years late and three times over budget. That is a national embarrassment. Crossrail went slightly wrong but nothing like that or the problems with HS2.

 

[Irascible]

(While we're on the topic of Jago Hazzard, I've finally seen what he looks like btw despite his attempts to be mysterious, and I can't explain it but his face matches his voice, if that makes sense

Didn't he make an appearance in one of Jay Foreman's vids?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Firing the management team, who were in denial about delays and cost overruns, was not a good look.

Why was firing a grossly incompetent, and possibly much worse, management team not a good look? Firing them and bringing in professionals is what saved the project.

 

[YorksLad12]

Didn't he make an appearance in one of Jay Foreman's vids?

As Harry Beck. Only had the one line - I think in the second of the two videos about the Tube Map after Beck had been let go by LT (I was rewatching it the other week).

 

[Basil Jet]

As Harry Beck. Only had the one line - I think in the second of the two videos about the Tube Map after Beck had been let go by LT (I was rewatching it the other week).

Using him voicelessly in the first video and then letting us hear his voice in the second was *genius*. It's easy to take Youtube stars for granted but Foreman's work is superb on every level.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why was firing a grossly incompetent, and possibly much worse, management team not a good look? Firing them and bringing in professionals is what saved the project.

Well, I'd say it highlighted the poor communication across the project and upwards to TfL/DfT, despite all the checks and balances apparently being in place.
The late completion also masked serious issues with contractors.
The DfT intention was also to migrate the Crossrail management and methods on to HS2.
HS2 now has its own serious project management issues, not all of their making.
Mega-projects like this also have such opaque finances and multiple stakeholders that keeping track of it all is well-nigh impossible.

 

[jagardner1984]

I suppose the overriding difference compared with simpler projects is the number of safety critical interactions that have to be signed off, that are show stoppers.

It is fairly common to see newly built structures with bits cordoned off for later completion - it’s a bit harder to put some cones around a signal and a “coming soon” sign.

And the fact all of those safety critical Devices are very custom and require seperate sign off, whereas many other large construction projects are very much a copy and paste job of previously tried and tested materials and methods.

Therefore, combined with the keenness of the political (and therefore budgetary) masters to get it open to the public yesterday (for some very sensible inflation reasons too), and the continual churn of redesign and recosting, the window of opening dates is really not much more than an educated guess (lucky or otherwise)

 

[Lucan]

I like Jago Hazard's channel, but he is forgetting that he is London oriented and railway oriented. Most people "nationally" have scarcely heard of the Elizabeth line and if they have they promptly forgotten it again. It was never a national joke.

 

[43066]

Most people "nationally" have scarcely heard of the Elizabeth line and if they have they promptly forgotten it again.

I doubt that’s true at all. It was one of the largest projects undertaken in this country in modern times, and the largest construction project in Europe for much of its construction. Anyone who follows the national news will have heard about it (and the delays) many times over the past few years.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I doubt that’s true at all. It was one of the largest projects undertaken in this country in modern times, and the largest construction project in Europe for much of its construction. Anyone who follows the national news will have heard about it (and the delays) many times over the past few years.

I'd argue that they're probably more likely to have heard about crossrail, rather than the Elizabeth line, however

 

[43066]

I'd argue that they're probably more likely to have heard about crossrail, rather than the Elizabeth line, however

You may be right there. Of course many of us still use the terms interchangeably!

 

[Hadders]

These tyoes of majoe projects often run over budget and get delivered late. It's frustrating but they're generally massive, ,unique projects where it's very difficult to prediuct exactly what will happen on the ground once construction starts.

You then get politicians trying to shave the budget and de-scope during construction which often only adds to the the final cost and delay. All this aided and abetted by the media.

Take some recent huge projects like:
Jubilee Line Extension
Millennium Dome (The o2)
HS1
Olympic Park
Elizabeth Line

The overspend and delays are rapidly forgotten and end up looking like a bit of loose change in years to come. Does anyone seriously believe the projects abouve shouldn't have been built?

 

[PGAT]

Time perception is an illusion. 4 years is basically nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Fazaar1889]

I doubt that’s true at all. It was one of the largest projects undertaken in this country in modern times, and the largest construction project in Europe for much of its construction. Anyone who follows the national news will have heard about it (and the delays) many times over the past few years.

To tell you the truth. The first time I had heard of crossrail was in that wierd Tom Cruise mummy film where it was mentioned in the beginning that a tomb was uncovered due to drilling or something.

What I'm curious about is what changed? Jago said that it flipped on its head in a short time span. Why?

 

[sjoh]

I almost had a brain aneurysm trying to work out what the second word in the title was, but I think now I've got the gist.
I don't think "national joke" is specific to the Elizabeth line itself. It seems every major construction project these days finds its way majorly overbudget and/or considerably delayed. Take HS2, NPH, EWR, South Wales Metro, but then also many outside of the UK too.

(While we're on the topic of Jago Hazzard, I've finally seen what he looks like btw despite his attempts to be mysterious, and I can't explain it but his face matches his voice, if that makes sense )

For those dying to be let in on the mystery, Jago is Harry Beck in this Jay Foreman vid:

 

[Fazaar1889]

For those dying to be let in on the mystery, Jago is Harry Beck in this Jay Foreman vid:

I know he did his voice but is he actually the actor as well?

 

[sjoh]

I know he did his voice but is he actually the actor as well?

According to Jay, yes.

 

[YorksLad12]

According to Jay, yes.

He managed to get Matt Lucas in one of his earlier solo videos, so I believe him!